Self-steem

Twistermind, almost everyone usually interacts with people in a way that would, in their opinion, make the people like them or be impressed by them. It certainly plays the part. Some do it very well, others do it ineptly and achieve different result from the one they hoped for.

you seem like genuinely warm person, somehow. )) Maybe you're afraid to speak up your mind or disagree for fear that others will dislike you/get angry at you?

I personally think it's cool to have people who try to be nice and friendly for whatever reason, instead of unleashing their bad mood on you. I don't care how honest they are, they don't have to be all that honest with me unless we're very close. Just be nice, dammit, that's good enough for me.

venividivicky wrote:you seem like genuinely warm person, somehow.

That's the problem - she only seems to be that way. By her own admission, it's all an act.

No wonder she has low self-esteem! People only like the fake her, because they think that's who she is. She's doing a bait and switch on people - which is horrible to them - and when the real her emerges, they don't like it. If that's not going to do you in, someone not liking the real you, I don't know what will.

If she would just be herself from the beginning, stop faking it, then people would get to know, and like, the real her. No more "what happened to you - you've changed - I liked the old you - contact me when you're feeling like yourself again."

And it would have to be less stressful, not having to put on an act all the time. She might actually get some real interests!

The big problem would be coming clean to all the people who think the fake persona is the real person... That's going to be a huge let down for them. Still, better to start clean and stop all the lying and manipulation.

If you have to trick someone into "connecting" with you, 1) it's not a real connection, no matter if the other person thinks so, because it's all based on lies, and 2) it won't matter how much attention you can leach from them, it will never be enough, because they won't be interested in you at all, just the mirage you've put up in front of their faces.

Oh but I don't think you'd fake that over long period of time. Even in online interactions, you (not YOU in particular) can lie about ton of things but some little things will show your temper, like hysteroid tendencies and the like. E.g. I am right now in a house of a pal from online forum, who's trying to be sweet and calm on the forums, but even off internet page full of smilies you can feel her annoyance growing, you can feel that she tries to keep the cool and pleasant chat but she's biting her nails and rolling her eyes at the same time. And she admits it freely now)) I understand her feelings, but it's not the point.

I know I couldn't pull off "warm" to save my life. I can of course keep my mouth shut, not to say some things (and I have to, there are some laws of civility even for me, heh), I can avoid conflicts by not saying some things, but I won't appear warm, though.

Yes I suppose that yes, some people really do have this blinding charm (though I rather feel I'd be uncomfortable around them anyway) - those dangerous manipulators you're talking about, and even the nicest person will have some thoughts that they keep to themselves that might upset one if they knew - but then, that's also natural.

It's a bit hard for me to believe that twistermind would be able to pull that off. What I can easily see avoidant be is a people pleaser, someone who's afraid to speak up their mind, or who will do anything to avoid conflict and unpleasant situations, - and that to some other types of people is so annoying that they'd call you those names, say that you're fake. Or maybe even some person who cares about you but notices that you never speak up to yourself and swallow some things you don't like, will call you fake for it, but the thing is it's more that you're just afraid.

I am not sure what's this genuinely honest interaction that you recommend is though... To me, I know that the things I can say will have this or that effect on people, and naturally I choose what I want to say to achieve particular result. How else? Language is a tool. A tool is something made to manipulate things. It is up to people to react or not to react in a way that my words suggest. Like, I am maybe even too direct about things I say to people, but when I say these words I know I am creating particular reaction, most likely, there is no way around it.
again, I mean general "you" of course.
E.g. when someone says something I usually consider WHY they say that. if someone was to say "you look great today" they are manipulating me into feeling better. they can believe that, they can not - they still say it because they want me to feel good. So even though it doesn't make me feel good, I still can appreciate their effort and intentions.

I probably wish it wasn't so. If I could say to someone "you're in my opinion very stupid. However, that is not said with intent of causing you pain and I do not wish it to change your feelings about me. it is just my opinion." And a person wouldn't have a reaction I KNOW they'll have and it will be hunky dory.

The difference is what your intended effect is. You don't tell someone they're stupid - withholding information - because you don't want to hurt their feelings. Twistedmind has a fake persona that she uses to control people. That's a huge difference!

It's a matter of direction - are you less than genuine because you want to help people, or you want to get something from them. The first is admirable; the second despicable.

I think some people here are taking your words very literally and hurting you badly, I don't know why you're being targeted this way but I think you shouldn't listen to those words. You also seem to have some difficulty expressing your feelings in English, so you may be a bit off regarding what you truly want to say.

I think you mean by manipulating other people is that you want to appear like a gentle person that others can rely on under certain barriers that they can't trespass and maybe someone trespassed that berried and found out your insecurities and now you want to avoid them? I personally don't see this as an act of controlling people, because you're not really out there to be malicious to other people but just want to get by by being friendly to other people even though inside you're too afraid to show your real self. And of course when you want to build something with other people you have to expect something in return, why is that despicable? It is not because you haven't hurt nobody.

angles90 wrote:when you want to build something with other people you have to expect something in return, why is that despicable? It is not because you haven't hurt nobody.

If you expect honest and open communication from someone else, but you refuse to do it yourself, instead you dangle a false persona that you hope people will attach themselves to, that's despicable.

It hurts people very badly - very badly - when they get smacked in the face with the truth. "I thought I knew you, I trusted you, but everything you said was a lie." In what situation would that reality not be hurtful?

And in this situation, read what she said, she pretends to be someone she isn't to lure people in. Seriously, explain to me how that is fair to her victims? Especially if they are avoidant, because, of all the people in the world, they are the ones who have already experienced enough emotional abuse and game playing, they deserve to have genuine, decent, honest people in their lives.

Angles, that's how I took twistermind's words also, but hey, what do I know, perhaps there is some story here where twistermind sicked her dog on inverse's favorite kitten, I don't really know either and can't speak for their character with any authority.

Abstractly speaking though

If you expect honest and open communication

I wouldn't. That's not what civilization is built on. Certainly you shouldn't trust words too much - not even your own.

Twistedmind has a fake persona that she uses to control people

Well, I am impressed. I wouldn't think she has it in her. Controlling people is not easy, no matter how much one wants and tries. have been trying to control my boss into giving me a raise and a leave in autumn instead of summer and nada.... With these abilities twistermind could be a president.

the second despicable.

I don't think it's despicable, I think it's entirely natural. What's despicable is manipulating people into something that will cause them harm and hurt them, but it's the problem with intent, not manipulation itself. If a person wants to be liked (and that's most people. And if they don't want to be liked, they will play other game like "I am so much better than you and you'll know it". I usually play the game of "I don't wanna fight and let's just relax and leave me alone" - though not always, mind, as you might have noticed), so most people do very much consider how they words they say and things will do will affect other people's feelings towards them. Of course they do! "will it make them like me, will it make them respect me, will they hate me for it, will it lead to conflict".

and when they don't, it's when they blab something without realizing the consequences, because they are socially unintelligent. Nobody appreciates that in my experience. E.g., you can be even critical and all that, but you still have to consider how it sounds and whether a person gets any positives from you also.

If someone is that sincere as to just say whatever without considering how it will affect opinion of others on them, they are either an angel, or they'll be likely out of job and out of friends....

venividivicky wrote:What's despicable is manipulating people into something that will cause them harm and hurt them, but it's the problem with intent, not manipulation itself.

I agree, and that's what I'm talking about. If you're going in trying to get over on people, and trying to be an emotional vampire, trying to manipulate people into giving you all their attention, knowing that when you tire of them you will criticize them half to death until they drop you, so then you can use being dropped ("I lost my best friend") to sucker in more victims, that is despicable behavior.

inverse wrote:

venividivicky wrote:What's despicable is manipulating people into something that will cause them harm and hurt them, but it's the problem with intent, not manipulation itself.

I agree, and that's what I'm talking about. If you're going in trying to get over on people, and trying to be an emotional vampire, trying to manipulate people into giving you all their attention, knowing that when you tire of them you will criticize them half to death until they drop you, so then you can use being dropped ("I lost my best friend") to sucker in more victims, that is despicable behavior.

OK, now I see what your problem is and why you are obsessing over this issue of 'gaslighters'. People aren't 'gaslighting' you. It's just that when they get to know you they find that they don't like you. And like most narcs you can't see how unpleasant and obnoxious your behavior is. I've known dozens of borderlines in my years at the psych hospital and YOU are the one who is behaving like the borderline here.

Careful please, there is a whole long story behind this. Here are some selected highlight:

avoidant-personality/topic157012.html

avoidant-personality/topic157202.html

avoidant-personality/topic150864-80.html

avoidant-personality/topic161092.html

I see a lot of indirect comments and playing to the crowd by both parties. I have reported one or two of those threads to moderators in the past as isolated incidents, but it seems they should be treated as a whole.

Personaly I find some of the threads where third parties are heavily criticised to be a bit triggering, becaus I identify with that third party. So I can imagine if that third party is actually another forum member that it would be an unpleasant experience for them...

Parador, I can sympathise with your displeasure about the way that "gaslighting" thread was done, especially in view of your genuine and serious contribution to it.

Nonetheless I do feel that we generally need to be a bit careful about seeing cluster B personality disorders all around. To some extent, behaviours like playing to the crowd or hostility are just plain old human nature in my opinion.