Was my aversion to my bedspread a clue?

This will be a little long.

I've been having a really tough year. Various diagnoses over the years, various meds, no results. I ended up on this board by accident and read a little. I remember hearing about this disorder before, but I never knew what it was. What I read sparked curiosity.

So I followed the link suggested by betwixt in another thread here:

betwixt wrote:Hi, Kenny, it does sound like you could be Aspergers. Here are some more self-tests:

www.autismresearchcenter.com/tests/default.asp
www.rdos.net/eng/Aspie-quiz.php

I completed the rdos.net test and I scored 155. There is no mention on how to interpret scores, I just got a 'you are likely an aspie'. Hmm, very empirical. I was wondering if any of you 'aspies' might have insight on this kind of score... It seems high, but is it high enough to maybe rule out a coincidence? (I'll say more about what I really relate to in asperger a little lower.)

I'm tired of looking for answers as to what I may or may not have. I just want to get better already. But I don't trust the net much (90% bs?), don't trust my own bias (eg. maybe I want to have this so I scored high by relating), and my doctor, well, I trust him but I think putting my head together with his might be helpful in giving me a correct diagnosis at this point, because all else seems to have failed. Hopefully some of you can help.

Initially, 10 years ago, I was in the 'major depression' category. Went through years of trying all the anti-depressants known to man. None worked, many made things worse. This year I have been diagnosed as bipolar but I'm having a lot of trouble accepting that. There are some things that don't fit and the meds have yet to work as well, so of course that leaves me doubting. I do however acknowledge a cyclic aspect to my experience. So there may indeed be some truth to that diagnosis. But what doesn't fit with the theory might be the answer to the larger puzzle. Don't know if asperger has a cyclic aspect to moods as well.

The thing that strikes me the most in this illness is the sensitivity to stimuli. As far as I can remember I've had a hard time with sound, loud voices, cars, and in the last few years cellphone rings just drive me nuts, etc, (or I become overly stimulated by sound... listening to classical for instance can be extremely intense for me). Also have issues with temperature, and wind or humidity, as listed in the mentionned-above test. Smells, taste, check those as well. I'm easily repulsed by certain foods that smell 'bad' like, oddly enough, canteloupe or black licorice. Textures are also a problem. Ever since I was a kid I've always found the feel of certain materials aggressive to me, for example my bedspread which felt 'rough' and I hated touching it. I can't stand anything but flannel sheets. Regular white cotton sheets = scratchy.

Things relating to sound are the major issue. I have lots of trouble understanding people in live conversations, or keeping track of what is being said. I tend to zone out easily, and I get very tired after an hour or two of being with the same person. My friends all know I have a two-hour limit on socialization.

I'm a student, in the top 10% of my university, but I find it extremely difficult to focus on class more than one hour at a time. I zone out easily as well. Or suddenly really sleepy. I'll 'get it' on my own later. I learn best on my own anyway.

I spend most of my time outside of school alone, which suits me perfectly fine. I often think other people are 'weird'... like I don't belong to the same species. Humans, I don't understand them, you know? Understand them as robots sometimes. I also consider that I lack certain essential social skills. A search on 'empathy' is what lead me to this forum in the first place. I feel I lack it. I've always been in my own world, as a kid always reading books instead of playing with dolls or kids, as an adult fixated on abstract concepts and theoretical questions, still in books. Frankly, I don't like being with people much, they usually annoy me after a short while, and I am not interested in anything they have to say. I have so much trouble getting in the conversation when there are too many people and I get dizzy, forget what I wanted to say, don't know how to say what I want to say. For that reason, I have never had many friends, and maintaining relationships has always been very hard. I've recently lost a close friend who said 'being with you is like I'm not there'. Apparantly, I appear not to care.

I do. I care a lot. Sometimes I feel like it's because I'm so emotional inside that all the words get in a jumble, or the attempts at hugs or closeness turn into clumsy endeavors. Unable to be romantically attached as well. I've dated, but can't seem to relate to anyone beyond a few weeks. I seem to be unable to 'show' sensitivity and to respond correctly to the sensitivity of other. I don't know how to react to their issues, what to say to make them feel better. I know you're supposed to say something, but it just never seems to come out right. Oh, and being in all these social situation makes me nervous, anxious. I will worry all week about dinner next week-end with family, or going out with friends. I don't like being out in public at all, just want to hide. I spend a lot of time thinking about how to avoid interaction with people.

So basically, I feel as though I don't understand anyone and no one understands me. I feel very lonely but at the same time I don't want to be with anybody. I haven't spoken extensively about these specific issues with my doctor, but I have mentionned my lack of social 'ability', to which he has never really had anything to answer back and I never pressed the issue. He just says that I am gifted analytically, and that I feel the way I do because I don't partake in enough activities with others. Thing is, I have zero desire to partake in anything that isn't just with myself.

I spend half my time thinking that the way I think IS the problem. That I don't think like normal people.

Although I feel inept at dealing with people, I have no difficulty in the academic area. I excel at expressing my ideas on paper, yet I can't put two sentences together in person. I consider myself to be like a nutty scientist, always wanting to know more, always reading books, only interested in concepts not practical issues or people, never able to relax because I'm missing out on learning. I can't watch comedies on tv, or most tv shows, because I feel I'm becoming stupider in the process, since you don't learn anything new on those shows.

Another thing. This 'gift' my doctor mentions, and professors have mentionned as well over the years, has lead me into trouble on numerous occasions when I experience something I'd call 'falling into texts', which relates back to my 'sound' problem. I'm a political science major, and my specialty (and the subject of my masters thesis) is literature and the political imagination. So I read a lot of very beautifully written text. I've always read a lot as I said before, but I'm particularly drawn to texts with rythm, sound. Poetry for example is definitely my thing. Poems are like concertos to me. Music, plain and simple. I 'hear' the music of words, and sometimes I get too caught into that sound, and ideas start spinning as my imagination runs wild (the ideas spinning all the time is the main factor as to why I've been diagnosed as bipolar). During periods of intense stress, such as the situation right now, I can't read because I know I will read too much into the text and loose a certain rationality to my way of thinking. One text I had to analyse, a very long 19th century poem that addressed questions about what is god, was so beautiful, and had me so drawn to the music of it, that things spinned out of control to the point where the concept of god in the poem became the building block for a whole bunch of theories. That's an example of getting into trouble... I read the verses over and over, make the sound come out again. I'm obsessive that way. I can't help it, but at least I have a certain control over this now, where I know that I shouldn't be reading something if I'm not feeling too well. I wonder if anyone else has trouble with this.

Other detail. I like order and my mind feels much less chaotic when everything is in order. Thinking about creating order takes up another big chuck of my time. Order with food is my big thing. After doing the grocery I usually feel 'stable' for quite a few days because the fridge is full with the same products, stacked in rows. Sameness is important. I'll eat the exact same things for a week, revel in that, feel at peace. Everything else will fit in that pattern of repetition and I'll be highly functional. But as the fridge empties I will generally start feeling screwed up again, the house becomes a mess, I can't put things back in their place after using them, all other repetitive aspects of my life also become corrupted, and I become anxious again. So funny enough, my moods seem to be very much influenced by whether or not there are neat rows of products in my fridge. Order starts there.

Anyway, I've said quite a bit. I'm sure more than enough to see whether or not my experience is similar to yours. I'd like to suggest this possibility to my doctor on my next visit, but I'd first like a little bit more insight. I don't want to go in there telling him I passed an internet test for asperger with flying colours thus I have asperger's. I need more convincing evidence, for myself mostly, not for him. I think your experience would be more useful in trying to understand mine, than any google search on the subject or questionaire results.

Thanks for reading my excessive rambling

nancy

Hi, Nancy, fellow aspie! Sorry, no coincidences there. I got a 154 on the test. On one of the forums a non-Asperger wife of an Asperger posted a 77.

Often Aspergers have co-morbid conditions such as Tourettes, bi-polar, ADD/ADHD, etc. If you are bi-polar (though you are questioning it) that's probably where you're sensing the cyclical aspect. I am cyclothymic, which is a mild form of bi-polar and things such as social relations and hypersensitivity are more pronounced during the depression cycle. My cyclothymia was helped with supplements (I don't take drugs for anything unless it's absolutely necessary) including lithium (the mineral, not the drug--which 50 times more powerful) which I was found to be low in. It appears that we may be low in nutrients and often low levels of nutrients is found to be a cause or contributor to depression.

I have hypersensitivity to sound and tastes and smells. It sounds like you have them all, except to light! I find my hypersensitivity to sound to be the most difficult aspect of Aspergers. I want to get angry at people for being loud, when they're just being normal, I can't take a ticking clock, I despise motorcycles, I have a hard time with two sounds at once, etc. Wearing earplugs helps a lot with this. The taste/smell thing is beneficial--I can tell when the milk is going bad before anyone else and I am wine taster extraordinaire! I'd have a future as a perfume maker if I wasn't chemically sensitive--another side effect of hypersensitivity, but at least it alerts me to chemicals (which are everywhere, by the way )

All the other things you describe, trouble keeping track of conversations, zoning out, needing to be alone, having a limit on socialization, not being to relate to others--them seeming like aliens, feeling like you're in your own world, getting bored with regular conversations, liking abstract & theoretical concepts & questions, not appearing to care when you care a lot and are trying hard, overwhelmed by too many people, forgetting what you were going to say, having trouble figuring out what to say (do you have an easier time writing?), feeling lonely but not wanting to be with people, sameness, routine, etc. etc. is Aspergers. Hello, I understand you.

I love poetry also--I do similar things to what you describe. Many aspies love music and the arts and also are visual thinkers and look for patterns and rhythms to things.

Your doctor saying that you are gifted analytically (true), but that you need to partake in more activities (untrue), doesn't understand. You can get better in social situations by learning and effort but not to the level non-Aspergers expect and trying and feeling bad that you can't will only cause more anxiety which will make things worse. As will doing too many social things!

You are right, it is better to talk to other Aspergers than rely on non-Aspergers views of us. In fact, when I thought I might be Aspergers I was actually convinced I wasn't when I read the diagnostic criteria. It was only after reading things written by other Aspergers that I recognized myself.

I've been thinking about this some more and I have to post other ideas. Again I'm sorry for taking up so much room but like I said earlier I'm tired of going around in circles and I actually think I'm onto something here. I've read other threads and more stuff about this illness on the net since I first posted and I see that the childhood aspects are really important (hence childhood illness title I guess), and though I don't have access to much of that information I thought I'd brainstorm with what I have.

I can't tell you anything about how my speech developped. I'm pretty sure I was not late with words, and I know people considered me a pretty wordy kid. I remember family members commenting on my smartness all the time and many of them started giving me books instead of toys when they realised I liked those better. I know I picked up new words quickly and I was a walking fact dispenser (one book gift was an encyclopedia and I read it over and over). I don't remember having much trouble with other kids in the first years, I mean I could communicate with them I'm pretty sure. I remember getting into trouble very often for being 'inappropriate' or talking when I shouldn't or 'disturbing' my classmates. I have all the report cards, and the early years mention this inappropriateness over and over until about the age of 5 (where I live we start preschool at 3). Teachers also wrote things like "does not listen to instructions well, could do better if paid more attention". The feeling I get from their notes is that I was a very smart kid but I wasn't understanding the school format, or conforming to it very well. I remember spending half of my time in 'the corner' and not knowing why I was always getting in trouble. It felt like I was always in trouble those years.

I was getting in trouble at home too and the fear of my dad (who was very loud and could send me into intense crying-screaming spells if he yelled at me, resulting in him yelling more, and a terrorised me rocking back an forth, that sort of thing... again the 'sound' issue I think) lead to my understanding quite quickly that I best shut up in class. So I stopped getting in trouble in school and at home and I hardly needed discipline, but my grades still stayed below what teachers considered I should be getting because, again as they wrote in the report cards, I wasn't paying enough attention to instruction. This not paying attention to instruction comes up a lot and has now got me thinking of the adult me that also has a horrible time following instruction, not because I'm not paying attention but because the words get all mixed up and lose their coherence. I do fine at reading instructions. If I'd get lost driving there is no point asking someone for directions because I'm unable to keep the bits of information in my head, they fade as soon as the next bit is told. Turn at the red light, then left, then two more lights, etc, if expressed verbally would get me all mixed up. I do fine at reading maps.

As I got older the grades got much better, I think because the subjects were more interesting. Plus I had learned the rules, I think that's important, I guess I adapted. I did bad at whatever didn't interest me and excellent at whatever did. My best subjects were always language (ha) and science (I was a little scientist). I'm still someone that becomes bored easily and that has made school very difficult, not academically but in the sense that I have to force myself to attend classes I have zero interest in taking and that's really hard. I have dropped countless classes in universitity for this reason. I just didn't bother attending and even though I would have had a good grade if I'd gone I could have cared less. Boring usually leads to won't do it.

Two other things, proximity and eye contact. I don't know much about how I was when really little but I can remember as far as my early teens and I did have issues with both. I still have issues with both though I am able to not let it show when it's important. Most people would probably never guess that I feel the way I've described in these two posts, because for the most part I'm good at playing the 'normal' act. But it also makes me feel very lonely because I am putting on an act, and thus not 'me'. Odly I don't have much trouble establishing eyecontact with people I don't know (like in a work environment where you have to greet clients). Maybe because it's not personal and I know it won't be a ten minute gaze (during which I would probably die). It's just a part of what you have to do to fit in public life (something I mention often, that I have two ways of living, the one in public where I have to submit to social norms I don't understand, and the one at home where I can be my regular unsocial self). I have trouble with eye-contact with people I know. I can't talk to friends and look in their eyes. I'll do it briefly every so often just so as they don't think I'm not listening at all. I can't follow the conversation if I'm looking straight at the person, I have to look away and then I 'hear' better. It's as though the looking in the eyes is actually a stimuli that I can't handle during the process of making sense of the social interaction, it distracts me. I have to tune it out to function. So I'm always looking away when I'm listening, or else the words become noise instead of meaning.

I also know that at least from my early adolescence on, if not earlier, I've had major issues with personal space. If someone enters my area my heart begins to race and I feel like zoo animals must feels when they're in their cage: emprisonned. I want to get out out out of that situation. Makes me very nervous, kind of like I am pacing in my own head. This is with everyone, strangers or friends. Many people who know me well have noticed this over the years (friends mostly... my family has no clue who I am because my 'act' totally takes over with them. None know about my depression and possible bipolar history and they'd probably be flabbergasted to find out I really am not 'normal' according to socially accepted definition). I will automatically move back if a person moves forth. Eg. I'm sitting on the couch and my friend sits next to me... I can't sit there anymore. Something makes me anxious. The real friends got used to it and accept it as part of me. I think this space thing is why I'm not good at giving hugs (they feel foreign) or do stuff like hold hands with a boyfriend (what a weird thing to do). I remember being afraid of talking to teachers after class for that reason, back to the early teen period I'm able to remember, because their desk did not represent a sufficient amount of space between the both of us for me to feel comfortable talking. I wondered why I was so bothered by this then, and I still wonder why I'm as bothered by it today. At one point I thought I had perhaps been abused and repressed it or something and like an animal that's been hit became always warry of humans. That's another thing... I noticed a few people on this board relating behavior back to animals and I do this too. I feel like I spend all my time analysing people's behavior, breaking it down to facts like researchers do in their animal studies, and only able to make sense of the 'human' world this way. Society feels like a big project I have to analyse and from which I am always detached. The objective observer syndrome if you will. I just invented that.

I don't really have access to my parents so I can't tell you more about how I was as I grew up. All I know is that the description of behaviors exhibited by asperger children do appears to me as the typical things I would have exhibited as well, although I can't really substantiate with fact, it just feels like a 'fit'. I've only researched this illness today, like I said before I never knew what it was all about until I landed in this forum. It all seems like 'me'. The only thing that screws up this theory is the wrong facial responses, like smiling when you should exhibit sadness. I don't think I do that, though I am often confused in situations were emotions must be expressed. My face tends to stay in neutral for a few moments until I've processed the information and then I'm pretty sure I respond with the correct facial expression.

Again, sorry for so much reading. I just want to make things clear and I've tried to do my homework by telling you all I know. Some of you seem really knowledgeable on this so I hope what I wrote will be helpful. I won't write anymore.

nancy

Again, everything you describe it typical. Most Aspergers learn to read at an early age--for me, age 3, but have trouble in school. That is one difference between Aspergers and High Functioning Autism (HFA). We read early, they read late. Fortunately I had a good 1st grade teacher who separated the kids into groups and gave them personal attention. I still remember her with much fondness. I resorted to lying, though, when I realized that adults did not understand me, nor I them. Telling the truth in these confusing situations resulted in them accusing me of lying or thinking I was bad.

Eye contact. Yes. We all feel that it's so intense that it causes us to not listen to them and forget what we're going to say, and also we look at them occasionally so they don't think we're rude. I've had people move into my line of sight so that I'll look at them! Either that or we'll try so hard we'll intensely stare and that will make THEM uncomfortable. I've gotten better at it over the years and can do it with someone I'm comfortable with.

Personal space as well. I used to hate for people to get into my personal space or touch me when I was young but as a young adult I would stand to close too people and get in their personal space (they would back up) and touch them while I was talking to them. Now I'm in between.

Until I knew about Aspergers I also thought I had brain damage and fear of people due to abuse.

Keeping a neutral face also, which many interpret as rudeness or other negativity. I started just keeping a smile on my face but that was looked at as weird, too. I know an Aspergers guy who does that. Now I do better.

I wrote the second post but for some reason this here was not yet up. Thanks betwixt, I was actually hoping you might be one of those 'knowledgeable' people who might respond

betwixt wrote:I have hypersensitivity to sound and tastes and smells. It sounds like you have them all, except to light! I find my hypersensitivity to sound to be the most difficult aspect of Aspergers. I want to get angry at people for being loud, when they're just being normal, I can't take a ticking clock, I despise motorcycles, I have a hard time with two sounds at once, etc.

Yes, exactly. Do you remember the first time kids figured out that scratching finger nails on a chalk board could annoy a vast amount of people at the same time? Well I just wanted to die when that happen. I get the exact same effect from cellphones now, and if killing people was socially acceptable and I were able to do it I'd probably target cellphone owners first. I don't even understand why people need a cell. The problem with sound appears to me as a little like a problem with bad resonance. Rythm and rhyme has good resonance, which is why most people are drawn to it. But I don't think most people understand bad resonance. Like the vibration literally gets my skin crawling. And the light, I just forgot to mention the light. I recently figured out that a minimum amount of artificial light makes me feel a lot better. My doctor had mentionned turning off the lights along with sundown. That has been immensly helpful. But yeah, light has a way of making me cringe too.

betwixt wrote:All the other things you describe, trouble keeping track of conversations, zoning out, needing to be alone, having a limit on socialization, not being to relate to others--them seeming like aliens, feeling like you're in your own world, getting bored with regular conversations, liking abstract & theoretical concepts & questions, not appearing to care when you care a lot and are trying hard, overwhelmed by too many people, forgetting what you were going to say, having trouble figuring out what to say (do you have an easier time writing?), feeling lonely but not wanting to be with people, sameness, routine, etc. etc. is Aspergers. Hello, I understand you.

Thank you. Do you have any idea how it feels to have someone RELATE. Omg. Epiphanic (if that's a word) moment you know...

betwixt wrote:Your doctor saying that you are gifted analytically (true), but that you need to partake in more activities (untrue), doesn't understand. You can get better in social situations by learning and effort but not to the level non-Aspergers expect and trying and feeling bad that you can't will only cause more anxiety which will make things worse. As will doing too many social things!

I looked at the treatments for this, and I like the fact that there's a lot of room for a better life without necessarily having to rely on meds. (Don't like meds, don't like substances acting on my brain chem, leave my brain alone! lol) Right now I'm on mood stabilizers and anti-anxiety meds, and I think I wouldn't just stop taking them right away, but I'm interested in the potential longterm benifits of therapy. I've been in psychoanalysis 7 years now. I wonder if my therapist could help me with this, or if I need to meet someone more specialised. I have a feeling my doctor will have no idea what to tell me about this condition (or illness, whatever you want to call it). Probably that will be the therapist's case too.

betwixt wrote:You are right, it is better to talk to other Aspergers than rely on non-Aspergers views of us. In fact, when I thought I might be Aspergers I was actually convinced I wasn't when I read the diagnostic criteria. It was only after reading things written by other Aspergers that I recognized myself.

Yeah well I'm constantly worried about being contaminated by non-valid information. The net is full of it.

So weird how I feel like I totally get what you are saying (i.e. weird to 'get' the experience of another person!). I remember hearing about asperger's, and I probably looked it up, and like you say when you read it on the net it doesn't really seem to fit. The definition makes you feel as though if you have this you probably have zero social life or ability to tolerate interpersonal relations. Not my case so I couldn't relate I guess. But to do those things I have to 'will' them. I have to plan them in advance. By reading the stuff you guys-gals wrote about your childhood I was like, hey I think I experienced that too. Got me thinking and reading more. And since I'm good at making links and stuff I now have a full blown theory on what's so f-ed up about me

I feel better. I'll surely be posting more questions soon.

Thank you so much.

nancy

betwixt wrote: I resorted to lying, though, when I realized that adults did not understand me, nor I them. Telling the truth in these confusing situations resulted in them accusing me of lying or thinking I was bad.

I actually remember lying to get the punishment for what I hadn't done, and get the yelling over with already. I recall many many instances where I was accused of doing something bad and I KNOW I had done nothing and it was a misinterpretation on the blaming person's part, most often my parents. One time I was playing in my room and I was standing on a chair trying to reach something and I feel, and the chair ended up all the way into the hall (well maybe 2 meters), right in front of a closet door I soon found out I wasn't allowed to open. My mother came when she heard the noise, and when saw the chair was like 'what were you doing looking into that closet' and I was in disbelief at the accusation. For what seemed like an eternity she yelled at me for lying and eventually I just lied right back and said I had done it and sorry and I won't do it again. It was the weirdest experience.

And all the rest you wrote I totally relate to as well.

Thanks again.

nancy

n_boucha wrote:
Yes, exactly. Do you remember the first time kids figured out that scratching finger nails on a chalk board could annoy a vast amount of people at the same time? Well I just wanted to die when that happen.

My thing is styrofoam. I can sit here and just imagine the sound/feel of it. Ugh!

The problem with sound appears to me as a little like a problem with bad resonance. Rythm and rhyme has good resonance, which is why most people are drawn to it. But I don't think most people understand bad resonance.

Interesting...If it's a bad sound or if someone has a horrible voice it's so much worse. And I can handle good music if it's a little loud, so it makes sense...

And the light, I just forgot to mention the light. I recently figured out that a minimum amount of artificial light makes me feel a lot better. My doctor had mentionned turning off the lights along with sundown. That has been immensly helpful. But yeah, light has a way of making me cringe too.

So you do have hypersensitivity with all the senses. Wow.(Some people have hyposensitivity with certain or all senses, btw). Try and get sun as much as you can because lack of sunlight has health consequences. You can still get 50% of the rays in the shade.

Thank you. Do you have any idea how it feels to have someone RELATE. Omg. Epiphanic (if that's a word) moment you know...

Yes I do know how it feels. That's why I'm here. When I figured out I was Aspergers it helped me so so much.

I wonder if my therapist could help me with this, or if I need to meet someone more specialised. I have a feeling my doctor will have no idea what to tell me about this condition (or illness, whatever you want to call it). Probably that will be the therapist's case too.

You might want to ask him/her if they have any knowledge or experience of Aspergers. Often we are misdiagnosed with personality disorders or schitzophrenia (lord, how do you spell it?!) which can be really damaging and make you feel like a freak or a bad person.

So weird how I feel like I totally get what you are saying (i.e. weird to 'get' the experience of another person!).

Isn't it a great feeling? All those years of not being able to relate--it's because of this that they say we have no empathy, but it's just not for them.

But to do those things I have to 'will' them. I have to plan them in advance.

If someone asks me to do something social my first reaction is: 'No, no, no!' but then I often feel bad or left out if I don't go. So I say I'll get back to them to give myself time to get used to the idea. Then I call back and accept.

I feel better. I'll surely be posting more questions soon.

Thank you so much.

nancy

I'll be here. You're most welcome!

The resonance 'theory' is something I picked up from philosophy some years back when I started reading Plato. Although I don't particularly like Plato, especially as his teachings have pretty much influenced every discipline in the Western world without any proof he (or Socrates) was acutally right (masters of rhetoric both of them is all that's certain), there is something very very 'common sense' about the way he and people of his time viewed the role of music in society. The theory goes that when we are born into this world the only things we know how to do is scream and wiggle. When you apply rythm to those behaviors you get words (music) and coordinated movement (dance). I guess they got this by noticing our sort of primal response to melody, it's appeasing properties. That's the bit that makes sense to me. Close your eyes next time you listen to a musical piece you really enjoy. Notice how you also feel it on the inside, the resonance or vibrations... you don't just hear music, you feel it too. I think that's something that's distinctly human... never saw a dog move its head along with a good tune. We on the other hand react to nice vibrations by moving, wanting to dance with it.

So these greek guys thought that getting rythm into the soul was the way to make it balanced. They thought that not learning rythm as children lead to passion taking over reason in adulthood. So they had festivals and the like, where all the people of the city would dance and sing. They thought that this training the body and the ear lead to an inner peace, which would in turn be reflected by the 'soul' of the city, i.e. it's political stability. It's not that far-fetched. It's something people do in many churches... Gives a sense of commuity, bring all the people together by making their souls vibrate pleasently all at the same time. Makes you think huh...

Young boys all had to be trained in gymnastics (remember where the olympics come from and also had to learn song by heart. The song aspect of all this had the added benifit of being the perfect container for moral. Think how some childhood songs also 'teach' values. Think how you still remember those songs today. Rythm and rhyme affects memory. If on the other hand your body and ear were not trained, your soul would become chaotic. Passion would rule, reason would be clouded, and it would all just be bad.

I guess this made sense to me back then because I've always felt my insides were chaotic. When I read about this, I was like hey, I never had music in my life. All the other kids had music lessons, piano and what not. My parents never registered me for any sort of extra-curricular activity and I've long felt that this is something I greatly missed. Perhaps this contributed to my unstable state as dear Plato would like us to believe. Perhaps not. All I know is that if I ever have kids they will all take music lessons, if only to indulge me with their concerts

It's just intersting stuff to wonder about.

cheers,
nancy

Interesting stuff, Nancy. Not learning rhythm as children leads to passion taking over reason as adults, hmmm, that's food for thought. And the importance of childhood songs--my husband learned a lot of them as a child and my nieces just love it when he sings them and they try to learn them to sing along. I look a the 'Greek guys' as having pieces of the truth but not always getting it right, but at least they used their brains and put things out there to be built upon. I've always been drawn to rhythms of any kind, I've noticed, more than the average person. Just sitting on the beach listening to the waves (and waiting for the seventh wave) was extremely enjoyable (until someone inevitably came with their radio, destroying the peace ). I never had the extra-curricular activities either, but wanted to play clarinet and take ballet. I'm passionate about music and dance--a lot of us are. Some of us have poor motor skills and dance helps with that, as well. It does serve to bring order, coordination, discipline, freedom from gravity and other sublunary restrictions (my favorite ), and joie de vivre.

(That was me, betwixt )