Existentialism...

the problem with all this denial of free will, Sh3ld0n, is that the further down the road you go to saying people aren't responsible fr their own actions, the more anarchic a society you will get.

and that bit about choices being made before one is consciously aware of them is "pure hokum"!!! just because there may be a lag between synapses closing and being able to articulate what that means doesn't mean one isn't responsible for the synapse closures themselves, ie: you're still making a choice but at a more granular level.

shock_the_monkey wrote:my personal philosophy is: life is what you make of it within the circumstances you find yourself (C). that is to say that i don't think everything is newtonian, in as much as i don't think we only respond to external stimuli. i think we are capable of 'inner revelation', for want of a better expression (that's partly what all those neurones are there for). otherwise, life would just be a very complex game of pool, and i don't fancy that idea at all!!!

You are entitled to your opinion...
<look over shoulder to see where Slugger is>
Even if it *is* wrong...

My harsh philosophy is the gift that keeps on giving in terms of making sense out of the cock-eyed life system we find ourselves in...

Remember, I have a history of social dissociation and abject confusion and anxiety...
A harsh but recognisable truth is water off a duck's back for me in comparison...
"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" sort of thing...

shock_the_monkey wrote:the problem with all this denial of free will, Sh3ld0n, is that the further down the road you go to saying people aren't responsible fr their own actions, the more anarchic a society you will get.

Absolutely...
While I am not an anarchist, some who embrace the truth about this ugly life system we are forced to endure, may become so...

In actual fact, there have been studies which suggest that this is precisely what can happen if someone changes from the belief of an intrinsic social morality foundation to one where morality is an intellectual choice...

And in all probability, this is why Moses hoodwinked his followers into the fallacy of a God sanctioned code of behaviour...

Firstly let me say I see myself as a philosophical and social scientist...
I have a non-interference policy...
And I have a basic understanding on how human psychology will defend the indefensible no matter how irrational the belief system is...
You can take a wombat to logic but you can't make it think...
In essence, no matter what I say, if it causes existential anxiety beyond what an individual is willing to endue, no amount of reasoning will convince them to change...

And consider this:
People will go to war over a misbegotten belief system!
This is the tragedy of an emotion based philosophical belief systems...

Read my lips:
It is not my intention to change anyone....
It is my intention to provide the tools for change if someone wants to use them...
And interestingly, my primary motivator is the desire for personal growth...
Would you deny me that?

What I personally find appalling with what you are saying is in essence the J.Edgar Hoover ideology.
That is: “Justice is incidental to law and order.”
http://www.goodquotes.com/quote/j-edgar ... -and-order
And "Truth" is collateral damage in the maintenance of law and order...which is contrary to his public espousal...
To me, "Truth" and "Justice" are interchangeable in terms of denial of truth being unjust to the integrity of reality...

Once again, I find this systemic corruption, that all social systems seem to embrace, appalling...

That's a first, Shocky...
You have never "appalled" me before...

Sh3ld0n wrote:

shock_the_monkey wrote:my personal philosophy is: life is what you make of it within the circumstances you find yourself (C). that is to say that i don't think everything is newtonian, in as much as i don't think we only respond to external stimuli. i think we are capable of 'inner revelation', for want of a better expression (that's partly what all those neurones are there for). otherwise, life would just be a very complex game of pool, and i don't fancy that idea at all!!!

You are entitled to your opinion...
<look over shoulder to see where Slugger is>
Even if it *is* wrong...

now, that would be an 'interesting' alliance. but i can't quite see slugger going over to the dark side!!!

Sh3ld0n wrote:My harsh philosophy is the gift that keeps on giving in terms of making sense out of the cock-eyed life system we find ourselves in...

there's nothing whatsoever wrong with creation (how could there be???), it's our understanding of it that's flawed.

Sh3ld0n wrote:Remember, I have a history of social dissociation and abject confusion and anxiety...
A harsh but recognisable truth is water off a duck's back for me in comparison...

my life hasn't been exactly a bed of roses, you know!!! but that hasn't made me so jaded as to be unable or unwilling to see the beauty and majesty of creation and marvel at what's so completely beyond my feeble comprehension.

Sh3ld0n wrote:"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" sort of thing...

you're a veritable cornucopia of dodgy philosophies!!!

shock_the_monkey wrote:
now, that would be an 'interesting' alliance. but i can't quite see slugger going over to the dark side!!!

You misunderstood my intention...
These days I am hand shy of what Slugger has to say...

shock_the_monkey wrote:
there's nothing whatsoever wrong with creation (how could there be???), it's our understanding of it that's flawed.

Seriously?!!!
Quite clearly we are not in the same universe...

Shocky, really...
How can I take you seriously when you say something like that...

Fine...
Enjoy the diseases, man's inhumanity to man, the lies, the systemic corruption and deceptive practices...

I will let you join in singing with the Monty Python guys being crucified...
http://www.rocktube.us/Funny/Monty_Pyth ... gPhNw.html

While I sing this with the Monty Python guys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPriOQkKd6k


-- Tue May 28, 2013 6:05 am --

shock_the_monkey wrote:you're a veritable cornucopia of dodgy philosophies!!!

This coming from a man who believes in angels!!!

Sh3ld0n wrote:

shock_the_monkey wrote:the problem with all this denial of free will, Sh3ld0n, is that the further down the road you go to saying people aren't responsible fr their own actions, the more anarchic a society you will get.

Absolutely...
While I am not an anarchist, some who embrace the truth about this ugly life system we are forced to endure, may become so...

In actual fact, there have been studies which suggest that this is precisely what can happen if someone changes from the belief of an intrinsic social morality foundation to one where morality is an intellectual choice...

i think you're missing the point here. amorality aside, if people believe they have no free will and are merely reacting to their environment then they place no importance on striving to do their best in life. in short, they become fatalistic. something akin to a 'devil may care' attitude. is that really what you want???

Sh3ld0n wrote:And in all probability, this is why Moses hoodwinked his followers into the fallacy of a God sanctioned code of behaviour...

said the athiest to the gnostic!!!

Sh3ld0n wrote:Firstly let me say I see myself as a philosophical and social scientist...
I have a non-interference policy...

the prime directive!!! i've occasionally contemplated that. and whilst i don't agree with evangelism, i can't say i'm really a non-interventionist. i don't think that's the way the world is. much as i'm not an absolute pacifist. but that's another story!

Sh3ld0n wrote:And I have a basic understanding on how human psychology will defend the indefensible no matter how irrational the belief system is...
You can take a wombat to logic but you can't make it think...

which you, of course, are completely above doing!!!

Sh3ld0n wrote:In essence, no matter what I say, if it causes existential anxiety beyond what an individual is willing to endue, no amount of reasoning will convince them to change...

this sound all too much like a self-fulfilling prophesy to me!!! you may percieve that to be your reality but others may percieve such a view of reality as slightly delusional at times.

Sh3ld0n wrote:And consider this:
People will go to war over a misbegotten belief system!
This is the tragedy of an emotion based philosophical belief systems...

how in the name of all that is logical did we get from 'denial of free will leading to anarchy' to "war over a misbegotten belief system". there's obviously some assumed knowledge here. and my assumption is that it's wrong!!!

Sh3ld0n wrote:Read my lips:
It is not my intention to change anyone....
It is my intention to provide the tools for change if someone wants to use them...

i think you might be contradicting yourself here ever so slightly. if you don't want someone to smoke you don't give them a cigarette and a lighter!!!

Sh3ld0n wrote:And interestingly, my primary motivator is the desire for personal growth...
Would you deny me that?

i would never personally deny anyone anything unless they were to seek to deny me something first. but that's another story too.

Sh3ld0n wrote:What I personally find appalling with what you are saying is in essence the J.Edgar Hoover ideology.
That is: “Justice is incidental to law and order.”
http://www.goodquotes.com/quote/j-edgar ... -and-order
And "Truth" is collateral damage in the maintenance of law and order...which is contrary to his public espousal...
To me, "Truth" and "Justice" are interchangeable in terms of denial of truth being unjust to the integrity of reality...

Once again, I find this systemic corruption, that all social systems seem to embrace, appalling...

That's a first, Shocky...
You have never "appalled" me before...

well, that little leap of logical reasoning is completely ill-founded, at least from my personal philosophical perspective. i won't say hoover was actually wrong here. but it certainly isn't my idea of truth, justice and freedom. truth is the foundation for justice and justice is the foundation for freedom. so, to say that "truth is collateral damage in the maintenance of law and order" is to say that justice is as well. in other words, law and order are arbitary in relation to both. which has about as much spiritual foundation as a monk with a rolls-royce!!!

Sh3ld0n wrote:

shock_the_monkey wrote:
now, that would be an 'interesting' alliance. but i can't quite see slugger going over to the dark side!!!

You misunderstood my intention...
These days I am hand shy of what Slugger has to say...

i'm sure slugger will be relieved to hear that!!!

Sh3ld0n wrote:

shock_the_monkey wrote:
there's nothing whatsoever wrong with creation (how could there be???), it's our understanding of it that's flawed.

Seriously?!!!
Quite clearly we are not in the same universe...

well, quite clearly we are!!! but you seem to have gone into denial again.

Sh3ld0n wrote:Shocky, really...
How can I take you seriously when you say something like that...

how can you not??? surely, as a dedicated follower of dawkins, this should be right up your street. physical reality is absolute. there are no exceptions, no opinions, no mistakes. it is what it is, nothing more and nothing less. it is the epitome of completeness and consistency. nothing comes remotely close to that in the world of human endeavour.

Sh3ld0n wrote:Fine...
Enjoy the diseases, man's inhumanity to man, the lies, the systemic corruption and deceptive practices...

there's another one of those 'logical' leaps into the dark again!!! science and morality are two completely different things. try combining them at your peril. there are basic logical constructs for good and bad. but they have no scientific foundation.

Sh3ld0n wrote:I will let you join in singing with the Monty Python guys being crucified...
http://www.rocktube.us/Funny/Monty_Pyth ... gPhNw.html

While I sing this with the Monty Python guys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPriOQkKd6k

i know that 'always look on the bright side of life' was supposed to be satirical but the irony here is that they actually got it right!!!

Sh3ld0n wrote:

shock_the_monkey wrote:you're a veritable cornucopia of dodgy philosophies!!!

This coming from a man who believes in angels!!!

sadly for you, Sh3ld0n, i've never said that i believe in angels. and i really don't have much of an opinion on the subject either because it isn't something that ever really occupies my thoughts. but you may believe that i do if you find that satisfies your need to percieve me as illogical and irrational!!!

I heard my name and came over. My goodness, I already have a headache so I can't read all of that.
Really, all I need to say about this is: I think therefore I am. Furthermore, I think, and am self-aware, therefore I have choices in what I do. Also, I am agnostic like Shock, so.......

Sh3ld0n, I have a question for you: Do you think it possible for robots to ever become self-aware?

Sh3ld0n wrote:You misunderstood my intention...
These days I am hand shy of what Slugger has to say...

Bwahahahahaha!!!

slugger wrote:My goodness, I already have a headache so I can't read all of that.

i wonder if Sh3ld0n will??? and i wrote all of that on my 'not-so-smart' phone!!!

slugger wrote:Also, I am agnostic like Shock, so.......

i think it only fair to point out that "agnostic" and "a gnostic" are slightly different things (and especially if there are exclamation marks anywhere to be seen - good old heisenberg!!!).

slugger wrote:Sh3ld0n, I have a question for you: Do you think it possible for robots to ever become self-aware?

i thought he was???

shock_the_monkey wrote:i think it only fair to point out that "agnostic" and "a gnostic" are slightly different things (and especially if there are exclamation marks anywhere to be seen - good old heisenberg!!!).

Duh, I know better than that. Sorry, I really did have a migraine yesterday and my brain doesn't work too well when I have those!

shock_the_monkey wrote:i thought he was???

Well yeah, I just wanted to make sure