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AsPD female and incest

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AsPD female and incest

Postby wisdom » Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:07 am

CAUTION – may TRIGGER. Although its not very explicit this post covers childhood sexual abuse.

Were you, or do you suspect you may have been, a victim of any type of incest?

If you are dx AsPD or feel certain you meet the diagnostic criteria, or you are a “Non” who has (or had) a very close relationship to someone with AsPD take a look at the following pattern of symptoms that seem connected to how an adult personality disorder might take hold and manifest itself in adulthood, based on the experience of traumatic childhood incest.

Background and explanation why this is so challenging

When someone presents for treatment and is diagnosed with a personality disorder its not always apparent if traumatic incest occurred. The patient in many, if not most, cases will be in denial, or will have totally repressed the events. Where incest is significantly suspected the best course of treatment for the PD may need to be very different, and highly sensitized to the possible existence of that type of trauma.

Perhaps more important, in the actual treatment of prior trauma, knowing the particulars of what actually happened helps unravel a better understanding of the actual mindset of the perpetrator. Beginning clues may often be found in the specific constellation of symptoms that appear years later in adult life. For instance, sadistic and nonsadistic incest offenders have very different mindsets and leave very different footprints.

A book reviewer of Slater, A. C., Transforming trauma - A guide to understanding and treating adult survivors of child sexual abuse) wrote:
Abusers are masters of introjecting their sick thought patterns into the victim's mind, and any help at recovery must begin with teasing out that subtle "other voice" -- so subtle, the victim might not even recognize that he/she has heard it ever since the abuse.


In any intimate relationship (including adult-to-adult btw…) there is introjection. With childhood incest the exploitation and trauma can have a perverse result later in adult life, where the victim becomes the aggressor. Ejecting that aggressor back out of the adult victim, without risking the introduction of yet more trauma, is clearly a challenging therapeutic task!

Help mark out the trail a bit better if you can….

  • If AsPD (dx or strongly indicated) and known incest – how well do any of these fit you?
  • If AsPD (dx or strongly indicated) and unknown incest – do these suggest incest may have been a factor in your disorder? [Be careful of triggering.]
  • If AsPD (dx or strongly indicated) and known for sure zero childhood incest / sexual abuse - do these patterns seem completely irrelevant to you?

Again, Nons, with very close-in knowledge, feel free to also comment on the person you know.

Incest-Related Syndromes of Adult Psychopathogy by Richard P. Kluft. Chapter 9 by Michael H Stone, M.D. wrote:
The Incest Profile

Attitudes and Personality traits
  • Anger, irritability
  • Jealousy
  • Emotional volatility
  • Mistrust suspiciousness
  • Irresponsibility, disregard for social rules and customs
  • Manipulativeness, exploitativeness
  • Seductiveness
  • Deceitfulness
  • Secretiveness
  • Coyness [artfully or affectedly shy or reserved; slyly hesitant; coquettish. ]
  • Dependency
  • Hostility
  • Low self-esteem
  • Masochism
  • Shame

Symptoms
  • Sexual dysfunction (viz., frigidity, extreme avoidance of sex; hypersexuality with nymphomania]
  • Depression, suicidal preoccupation and behavior
  • Self-mutilation
  • Impulse dyscontrol (viz., rage outbursts, substance abuse, antisocial behavior) [Episodic dyscontrol syndrome (EDS, or sometimes just dyscontrol), is a pattern of abnormal, episodic, and frequently violent and uncontrollable antisocial behavior in the absence of significant provocation]
  • Anxiety, Fearfulness
  • Dissociative tendencies (viz., psychogenic fugue, multiple personality disorder)
  • Dysmorphophohia [Body Dysmorphic Disorder - fixation on an imaginary flaw in the physical appearance. In cases in which a minor defect truly exists, the individual with body dysmorphic disorder exhibits an inordinate amount of anguish. Body dysmorphic disorder often is encountered in dermatologic and cosmetic surgery settings.]
  • Extreme avoidance of gaze
  • Nightmares

Disturbances in Object Relations
  • Distorted attitudes toward sex: a tilting toward sex as a power-mechanism or enslavement or punishment of the partner, rather than as a pleasure and bonding mechanism; occasionally, a turning away from men altogether and toward homosexual object choice (especially where offending relative was cruel or humiliating); occasionally, an avoidance of specific sexual acts indulged in by the offending relative
  • Abnormalities in intimacy with either avoidance of men or (more commonly) stormy relationships, with a tendency to choose abusive partners reminiscent of the original offending relative
  • Primacy of the dominance/submission mode in intimate relationships, with impairment in the capacity for the (more mature) mode of cooperativeness
  • Ambivalence, with a tendency to oscillate between adoration and vilification (a manifestation of "splitting")
  • Infidelity
  • Possessiveness
  • Intense loyally to abusing relative, especially to a father, with inability to form enduring attachment to any other male
  • In married women with daughters: a tendency to divorce husband when daughter reaches same age as when mother was first abused

I am not a professional therapist. My postings here are provided for general informational purposes only and are not intended as, nor should it be considered a substitute for, professional medical or psychological advice. See: site Disclaimer and Notes
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Re: AsPD female and incest

Postby crystal_r » Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:43 am

My brother sexually abused me throughout my teenage years. I have been diagnosed with a nonspecific cluster b personality disorder with Aspd traits.

I'll respond to this more fully later.
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Re: AsPD female and incest

Postby LisaC » Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:43 am

Damn.

I don't have a dx for AsPD but when I was younger had a cousin get a little frisky. But it didn't (and doesn't) really mean anything to me.
My reaction was to hit him and then we got into a fight like we always did and that was it. We always fought so they ended up putting us in different rooms which was fine by me since I hated when he crawld up in the bed with me. I need a lot of room to stretch out.

But everyone says that when I was much younger, so young I can't remember, men terrified me. I would hear a man talk and hide and they'd all have to go look for me and try and pull me out.

Maybe that's how I came to be how I am? Maybe something happened. No clue, will never know. I believe I am just a little different, maybe better, than most. Only difference between younger me and me now is pretty much that I'm smarter now and everything has gotten a little more intense every year or so.

But a lot of that list is like you wrote about me. But everyone is probably those things to a point. But as I've said (and a few other people)I am nearing extremes with quite a few on the "personality traits" and "disturbances" list and have an obsessive/possesive nature.
"So yeah, ah start wearing purple wearing purple
Start wearing purple for me now
All your sanity and wits, they will all vanish
I promise, it's just a matter of time!..."
-Gogol Bordello "Start wearing purple"
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Re: AsPD female and incest

Postby Jm100 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:05 am

I used to have a friend, (she moved away like 2 years ago,) that was almost getting raped by her father, and luckily for her I was going to her house. I saw in the window that her dad was on top of her trying to rip her pants off and do it, so I kicked open the door, and punched him in the head like ten times, which knocked him out and I called the cops, they then arrested him, and he went to jail for like five years. After she moved away I never really stayed in contact with her, but I guess I saved her from emotional scars.
"Something horrible is happening inside of me, and I don't know why. My nightly blood lust has overflown, into my days. I feel lethal, on the verge of frenzy. I think my mask of sanity... is about to slip". - Patrick Batman.
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Re: AsPD female and incest

Postby LisaC » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:09 am

Jm100 wrote:I used to have a friend, (she moved away like 2 years ago,) that was almost getting raped by her father, and luckily for her I was going to her house. I saw in the window that her dad was on top of her trying to rip her pants off and do it, so I kicked open the door, and punched him in the head like ten times, which knocked him out and I called the cops, they then arrested him, and he went to jail for like five years. After she moved away I never really stayed in contact with her, but I guess I saved her from emotional scars.


"Okay, I saved you. Now STOP CALLING ME. :) "

That how I imagined that going down.

But yay, you were a hero for a day, lol.
"So yeah, ah start wearing purple wearing purple
Start wearing purple for me now
All your sanity and wits, they will all vanish
I promise, it's just a matter of time!..."
-Gogol Bordello "Start wearing purple"
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Re: AsPD female and incest

Postby Tempest88 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:05 am

I'm diagnosed AsPD and was also given the Psychopathy checklist and scored a 32. I don't really know which of the 2 I am. I'll just say AsPD as my Psychiatrist diagnosed it first.

I know for a fact I've never been sexually abused (or abused physically/emotionally). The list your provided was not relevant to me in the least aside from the ones relating to antisocial behavior. I can be angry/irritable at times, not trusting, manipulative, seductive if it's working in my benefit, deceitful.. again if it benefits me.

Nothing in the symptoms category fits me. In the disturbances in object relations category nothing fits me except infidelity, I have never been and will never be faithful to a partner.

I hope these are the type of answers you were looking for.
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Re: AsPD female and incest

Postby Jm100 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:07 am

LisaC wrote:
Jm100 wrote:I used to have a friend, (she moved away like 2 years ago,) that was almost getting raped by her father, and luckily for her I was going to her house. I saw in the window that her dad was on top of her trying to rip her pants off and do it, so I kicked open the door, and punched him in the head like ten times, which knocked him out and I called the cops, they then arrested him, and he went to jail for like five years. After she moved away I never really stayed in contact with her, but I guess I saved her from emotional scars.


"Okay, I saved you. Now STOP CALLING ME. :) "

That how I imagined that going down.

But yay, you were a hero for a day, lol.

Lol, yeah. I was like "You owe me for this, I don't just save people from rape for free," jokes :lol:
"Something horrible is happening inside of me, and I don't know why. My nightly blood lust has overflown, into my days. I feel lethal, on the verge of frenzy. I think my mask of sanity... is about to slip". - Patrick Batman.
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Re: AsPD female and incest

Postby kanin » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:31 am

I wasn't a victim but yeah, it happened. I'm dx'd borderline with strong antisocial traits.
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Re: AsPD female and incest

Postby AliceWonders » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:34 am

Wisdom,

You know much of my story from the HPD forum, and as such you know I fit this profile of abuse and pretty much all the things listed under each category.

My therapist and I are actually looking (slightly or more so lightly) at the posibility that many of my syptoms and aggresions/perversions in sexuality and violence have stemed from the abuse with my brother when I was 7.

What we've determined thus far; is that it's not so much 'what' he did, as it is more 'who he was' to me that caused the most damaging effects to my psyche. I loved him without question or reservation, despite his criminal behaviours and his generally being 'bad'. He was my idol, my big brother and I placed him on a pedestal- to me he could do no wrong.
Mom and dad even said, no matter how bad he was or what he did- I was always the good part of him. The way he loved me, the way he was with me, and the way he took care of me was the one thing about him in the world that was pure.
Aside from the abuse, he was an ideal brother, in other words.
So because there was no underlying issues between us, and there was nothing but absolute love there (aside from what happened) it really hit me hard, and was so difficult for me to desiphere it as a child, it held a great impact on my mind- just trying to sort it out.

She thinks (my therapist Beth) that as you said here, I may have taken that abuse that was pressed onto me and forged into abuse directed at others.
That my aggressions, violence, rage and hatred are fused into my sexuality because those are all the things that I had inside me from what happened so many years ago.

Being victimized, rather than making me docile and timid in demeanor, has caused me to be constanly on guard, and the aggressor. I attack, use, abuse others so completely- in order to make sure they can not do it to me. If I ever I do get hurt- I destroy the one that hurt me in a combatitive vengence to make sure they're so damaged and broken that they'll never come near me again. I make them afraid of me to protect myself from them- in other words. I push them past the point of sanity, and into total submission, break to the point where I can either have whatever I want, or they're too afraid to come near me again.

The more I love/trust someone, the more I hurt them because they've abused my love and trust, and used it against me- to weaken me, and it makes anything they do/don't do hurt me all the more. So I lash out 100 times harder when there is love there. Because that, to me, is the ultimate betrayal!

So yes, I fit everything you mentioned here:
Attitudes and Personality traits

Anger, irritability Yes
Jealousy Yes, when I feel there someone else there trying to seek the affections of someone I love.
Emotional volatility Extremely Yes
Mistrust suspiciousness Yes, everyone has an aleriror motive
Irresponsibility, disregard for social rules and customs Yes, very much so
Manipulativeness, exploitativeness Yes and I take great pleasure in this as well
Seductiveness Yes, this is my favorite form of mind control/manipulation and I love the rush on entrancement.
Deceitfulness Yes, at times, if it serves my puropse
Secretiveness Yes- I have too many secretes and play 'triangles' all the time too
Coyness [artfully or affectedly shy or reserved; slyly hesitant; coquettish. ] Yes, the coquett in this speaks to me, as it's a great way to add to seduction and manipulation; but there again it's just a ruse.
Dependency Yes, I have been known to become dependent on others, especially in relationships. I like to know they're there and if they're not there- I like to get them back and keep them underfoot.
Hostility Extremely Yes
Low self-esteem Sadly, yes
Masochism this one is something I'm still looking to find fully in myself. I can see where I create big problems for myself, set myself up to fail/faulter/my life to crumble because I just stop caring about stuff- so in that way I'm masochistic. Eating related (anorexia when I was in my teans and early 20's, bulemia in my 20's and over eating in my 30's) is masochistic to a degree, and I also pick my skin excessively when I'm stressed or upset, bite my nails, etc... So in those ways, and the fact that I place myself in destructive relationships, I am masochistic; but I'm not a cutter or anything like that. So my masochisms aren't 'obvious' persay...
Shame this one is strange for me because what I've realized in therapy is that the shame I feel isn't mine. I carry around the shame impressed on me by others; but when I take the way 'they feel' out of the equation- I don't feel that shame myself. Not for everything; but for a LOT of it! So that's something I'm looking into as well right now to better understand. There is shame there, but where it lays and how it's mine is the spot I'm trying to figure out at this point in time.

Symptoms

Sexual dysfunction (hypersexuality with nymphomania) Yes
Depression, suicidal preoccupation and behavior I do suffer depression quite a bit (a lot by 'normal' standards), my death instinct is strong as well; but behaviourally I tend to seek out dangerous situtations that could lead to my death, rather than 'try' (and I use that term loosly) to take my life in a bunch of unsuccessful suicide attempts.
Self-mutilation picking my skin, bitting my nails, and eating issues are the extent of this
Impulse dyscontrol (viz., rage outbursts, substance abuse, antisocial behavior) (Episodic dyscontrol syndrome [EDS, or sometimes just dyscontrol], is a pattern of abnormal, episodic, and frequently violent and uncontrollable antisocial behavior in the absence of significant provocation) yes- very much so, at times
Anxiety, Fearfulness yes- again very much, at times
Dissociative tendencies Yes. This has gotten better (I'm more able to control it as I look for triggers which bring on these various 'pieces' but they still come and go, and my perception of the world and my morality/focus changes greatly as I wax and wayne between these manifest of person within me) also my therapist and I looking into something you may find of interest: 'Pyschogenic Amnesia' as an explination to the way my childhood is so blank and my fragmentation occurred, etc... I'd love your thoughts on that if you know anything about it, think it couldbe relevant to me, etc... ( histrionic-personality/topic71991-10.html#p584758 <- that's where I presented some info on another thread on this topic)
Dysmorphophohia I've never been completely happy with the way I look and no matter how beautiful I am at the time, I can always find something to change/imporove; however I've not taken it as far as surgery at this point.
Extreme avoidance of gaze This has only come to me recently in abundance. usually I look for the gaze and like to be watched/admired; but recently I've taken the oposite stance and don't want people looking at me. It's kept me in the house for many months in fact; but I'm working on it and I'm not getting so mad when people look at me anymore...
Nightmares Extremely yes! I can't remember a time/period in my life when I didn't have nightmares. I have night terrors in fact. I cry, fight, scream, curse, sweat, have literal battles in my sleep, and I always have.

Disturbances in Object Relations

Distorted attitudes toward sex: a tilting toward sex as a power-mechanism or enslavement or punishment of the partner, rather than as a pleasure and bonding mechanism; occasionally, a turning away from men altogether and toward homosexual object choice (especially where offending relative was cruel or humiliating); occasionally, an avoidance of specific sexual acts indulged in by the offending relative Yes. I use sex for power, pleasure, release, control, and a number of other selfserving things as well; but it's never used as an intimacy thing or something 'bonding' between people. the thought of that alone repulses me utterly! Also, certain things that happened to me with my brother have become a form of displeasure for me in many ways- I don't like when people do that to me and it puts me in a state of remembering/sometimes even reliving what happened, so I avoid those things and can not find pleasure in them at all!
Abnormalities in intimacy with either avoidance of men or (more commonly) stormy relationships, with a tendency to choose abusive partners reminiscent of the original offending relative Yes. I choose bad partners for myself all the time...
Primacy of the dominance/submission mode in intimate relationships, with impairment in the capacity for the (more mature) mode of cooperativeness Yes. I'm always the dominant one unless I'm in love, and then it's a switch between being dominant or submissive but there is never equality between us.
Ambivalence, with a tendency to oscillate between adoration and vilification (a manifestation of "splitting") Oh Yes!
Infidelity Not raditionally. i will use this as a tool to harm someone; but I'll not cheat for the sake of cheating alone.
Possessiveness Extremely yes.
Intense loyally to abusing relative, especially to a father, with inability to form enduring attachment to any other male Yes.
In married women with daughters: a tendency to divorce husband when daughter reaches same age as when mother was first abused. Not so much...


I love when you come on to the boards Wisdom, you always give so much insight and help to explain things in a comprehendable way that makes it easy for others to see how these happen and even how to correct them. It's wonderful to see you here agin and I can't wait to see what you're gonna say next :D

Best 2U!
~Alice :mrgreen:
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth~Oscar Wilde

Ideologies separate us. Dreams and anguish bring us together~Eugene Ionesco

Once you chose hope anything is possible~ Christopher Reeves
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Re: AsPD female and incest

Postby Onebravegirl » Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:24 pm

I was told by my Therapist that very likely I was molested before I was at an age to use language. Memories without words are very difficult to tap into. Incestuous abuse as a baby-most likely.
I dont have ASPD, but I strongly believe my father does.
Tempest, can I ask you how you Know for A Fact that you weren't abused? How can you know for a fact? It seems to me that unless you lived a life like the Truman show, a person cannot know for a fact.
I'm not saying that you are not telling the truth or that you are in some sort of denial, I just find that wording pretty definite.
One
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