Friends And Other Mythical Creatures

Greebo wrote:I think if you’ve spent your time gutting small furry things or throwing cats at trains we can safely say you’re not an animal lover, or at least not an animal lover in the commonly accepted sense.

Well, I did spend many years abusing animals and killing some. That doesn't mean I'm not an animal lover. I just happen to 'love' them in a different way.

Interesting timing; I've been ruminating about the last of the people in my life that I'd deeply cared about.

I had a friend diagnosed ASPD for about 8 years - One of the longest friendships I ever had. He's made some decisions so poorly thought out and outlandish, that they're comical. I'm genuinely sad about the end of this friendship.

Early on in the friendship, I was quite reactive and had a bad attitude.
I had an issue with a mutual "friend" that I wanted to communicate with indirectly (I was afraid of them but I had to) and he wasn't being helpful, so I lashed out on him.
I later realized I was being a b1tch and apologized and he was like "Yes, you really were..."
He called me out, but because of the lack of emotion in what he was saying, I was fine with him doing it and accepted responsibility.

Nothing was off the table for conversation topics or personal information. I appreciated the level of acceptance he provided (or, again, that he had no emotional investment in his judgments).

He was a fantastic listener. Although he didn't use emotion, he was amazing at validating and demonstrating that he was hearing and understanding what I was saying.

He was also an insufferable know-it-all and he thought he was smarter than me. We didn't see a lot of things eye to eye, and he never considered my opinions or perspectives. That started to infuriate me at the end.

I sometimes found his arrogance and disregard towards others very embarrassing when we went places, and I often apologized for him to others and for his behaviours.
He didn't listen to me when I tried to demand that he be nice when we went places together. I appreciate people who don't let anyone tell them what to do though.

At one point, he was in a roommate situation (in an expensive city) and the roommate accused him of raping her.
She'd phoned the police, an investigation had been started and he was worried.

I'm a protective (+ niave + foolish) friend, so I told him to come up and stay on my couch for a couple days while it was being sorted out.
There is no way you could have convinced me, at the time, that he would do such a thing, but reflecting in hindsight, I think the chances that he did rape her are equal to the chances he didn't.

I hate driving in unfamiliar places - or if I'm tired - or on busy highways with a lot of lanes and lanes changes.
He, on the otherhand, loved to drive, but he owed thousands of dollars in fines and tickets before he could even think of getting a vehicle again (and he was in major debt in general that he would have to try to pay off first and he had 2 children that he was way behind on his child support to his ex-wife on, so who knows if he'll ever get a vehicle again).
If he wasn't busy, I'd often ask him to come with me and drive in situations that I found stressful.

As I write this, I now wonder if he even had a valid driver's license at that point.
Which is funny because he's one of the only people I've ever felt was a good enough driver to be driving my car. Him, road-raging, listening to metal while we (more so me) chain smoked.

We went to meetings together occasionally too; I'm some version of a Christian and he was into LaVeyian Satanism (his higher power for AA/NA - I still don't get how he thought that works). A funny dynamic of so many opposites.

It seems like I always have to know what I'm doing and manage things around me when often I just want to relax and let someone else (who I feel knows what they're doing) to take the proverbial "wheel"

He always gave me the impression that he knew exactly what he was doing (even if he didn't) and that he was in control.
Because of this, I felt grounded, secure and stabilized and was able to relax. He was also unbothered by my neuroses and anxieties, and by mimicking his cerebral mannerisms, I learned to get them under control for the most part.

The trade off was dumbing myself down a bit and acting mildly submissive --- Or getting into long drawn out arguments that bothered me and not him.

He moved very, very far away and we had some conflict, so we stopped talking a couple years ago.

I write so much because I've felt grief over it a few times over the last few months.
This friend was one of the last people I still had any amount of emotional attachment left. I'm assuming he'd be fairly indifferent which irritates me and makes me want to try to get an upper hand somehow, but oh well.

^ what did you guys argue about?

Squaredonutwheels wrote:^ what did you guys argue about?

One time it was about "jail bait" and whether or not they have the emotional capacity to be fuking people - no matter how adult they look. Which led to arguements about legalities and defining statutory rape.

One time I remember it was something to do with politics. I just remember being really angry and quiet and not wanting to make things too uncomfortable or be an asshole and being upset that I didn't have a graceful exit so I could get away and "un-anger" myself.

One time, I stopped speaking to him for a few months because he had access to extremely cheap cigarettes, but it was a ways away.
I said we'd take my car if he'd get me some too and he had the nerve to think that he could expect a pack from one of my cartons just because he was the one with access (after we'd taken my fuking car which was the only way he could get out there at the time).
- It was about the principle of not trying to profit off your friends - not the pack of smokes for me.
Then again, he also didn't realize that I would occassionally do things to cheer him up if he got sh1tty news while making it seem like he was doing to me a favour --- so my view of the balance in 'give and take' was probably different than his.

Eventually I was visiting someone and he was there; he looked mildly forlorn when I tried to pretend he didn't exist (which I had never seen him do before), so we just dropped it and went back to being friends. He made fun of me for blocking him on social media at the time though (I admit immature).

A couple times it was about which one of us actually had factual information in regards to the information (or even terminology) they were providing.
Sometimes dumb stuff like whether Corey Taylor is intelligent or whether Maynard writes his own lyrics or whether it was written by other band members.

I think it was more to do with boundaries for me and trying to assert that he wasn't always right.

We may have argued about Christianity. He was well versed in the bible.
Along with how on earth he figured the concept of Satan (worshiping self) could be a higher power for a 12 step program.

Another time it was about polyamory and whether humans are meant to he monogamous.

I didnt normally bother to argue with him - there was no point.
I can't think of any other issues we had.

To add, I paid for my own cartons of cigarettes- not him - I just needed him to get them.

Greebo wrote:This I think is partly why some people prefer animals. If there is something wrong with their social persona, usually just a lack of social skills, anxiety etc then they struggle to get past the initial interactions. Animals offer a degree of connectedness without any social entanglements. That being said I read a couple of weeks ago that animal enthusiasts are found to share a varient of the OXT gene which causes an over production of oxytocin, so as a group we’re probably also quantifiably a little nuts.

In people with PDs due to either failed development or defensive compensations (typically below the conscious level) the self ends up in a deformed or mutilated state which no longer has the ability to tessellate properly with those of other people.

I have always Loved animals over humans since childhood. And yet I am a good socialiser with people when I have to or want to. .... just rarely want to. I can 'tessellate' fine when I need to. If I am put on the spot with meeting people I have no interest in, I remain withdrawn and aloof, but it is a choice rather than an inadequacy and I think, something to do with conserving energy. The presence of other people is energetically draining for introverts.
I think one can form a deeper connection with animals because it is non verbal and energetically more enhancing in some way.

Greebo wrote:I think if you’ve spent your time gutting small furry things or throwing cats at trains we can safely say you’re not an animal lover, or at least not an animal lover in the commonly accepted sense.

Don't knock it until you've tried it.

I think the issue here is the term 'animal lover'. There's a part of my family who came from farmers and I spent some time as a child on the farm from time to time (I think to give my parents a rest). They have what I'd call the healthy view of what animals are and the relationship we should have with them.

Apart from the past 20+ years, we used animals. Not to say we misused them, but they were food and working assistance. Now they're getting Christmas presents and taken for walks in a handbag.

Anyone who thinks this is normal or even acceptable are f*cked in the head to a degree. We breed pedigree animals for our own likes and, in most cases, this makes them weak and problem-ridden. Dogs are toys, birds are kept in confined areas, etc.

This isn't "loving" the animals, it's torturing them. Animals should be kept in line with their instincts, not in line with some misguided maternal instinct of our own.

Yeah, I've thrown my share of cats at trains (and other people's shares, you're welcome) and I've peeled a fair few, but not because I hate animals; just because it was funny at the time.

I own a dog and a cat (although I'm not sure for how much longer, as it pissed on my shoes and I fear it may be having an accident shortly).

They're not really mine; they're there for the rest of the family, but they get treated like the animals they are.

I trained the dog like a dog. I pinned it down, bit it when it did something wrong, slapped it and conditioned it with a reasonable level of fear - just like it would have experienced in a pack. As such, it's probably one of the most 'socially balanced' animals I know. It has no stress behaviour, does what it's told, and behaves like a lower-order pack animal in our house and is fiercely protective.

I think that people who treat animals like humans and often make comments like "animals won't let you down" are doing so because they're incapable of handling the complex interactions that human relationships involve, but they still need them and so animals are a good surrogate.

Animals won't let you down, true, but then, neither will the vacuum cleaner and, when you're dead, little Foofoo will eat your rotting face while you lie in a pool of your own piss on the kitchen floor.

I took my kids out hunting as soon as they were old enough. They've shot rabbits and carried their dripping little bodies back to the house to be scooped out, chopped up and thrown in a curry.

Simply put, they were taught, "Don't aim a rifle at something you're not willing to kill, and don't kill something you're not willing to eat." The result is that they'll think twice before wasting raw meat. They know that throwing out meat because you chose to order a pizza instead of cooking the chicken in the fridge is killing a chicken for no reason. And they know what that feels like.

I didn't do that because I love animals, I did it because I wanted my kids to be mentally well-balanced and understand the true nature of how the world works.

salles wrote:I have always Loved animals over humans since childhood. And yet I am a good socialiser with people when I have to or want to. .... just rarely want to. I can 'tessellate' fine when I need to. If I am put on the spot with meeting people I have no interest in, I remain withdrawn and aloof, but it is a choice rather than an inadequacy and I think, something to do with conserving energy. The presence of other people is energetically draining for introverts.
I think one can form a deeper connection with animals because it is non verbal and energetically more enhancing in some way.

I’m somewhat the same, familiar surroundings where I know what’s expected of me and I can even appear outgoing for short bursts of time.

Put me in a wedding where I don’t know what the fuk is going on, this retarded dude is drunk off his ass doing the electric slide looking something out of a Him Carry comedy (dumb and dumber) why, why is he doing that. He looks stupid and how can that be fun?

The entire ritual is stupid to me, I will feel anxious, a need to get out because I think I might hate everyone in here including my date (because this is her fault) now the fuking waitress is asking me what wrong with me, I’m not smiling, I’m miserable and it’s plainly obvious. I need to get out of this hell hole before I set fire to the bathroom. Ok, I got it I’ll take that I smoke go outside and try to bum a cigarette just to get out of here and not flush my ‘relationship’ down the toilet, wait.... is that what I want? Maybe I should just ditch this circus and go to the bar and drink by myself? It’s not easy my friends

"justonemoreperson"]
I think the issue here is the term 'animal lover'. There's a part of my family who came from farmers and I spent some time as a child on the farm from time to time (I think to give my parents a rest). They have what I'd call the healthy view of what animals are and the relationship we should have with them.

I spent time growing up on a farm also. I always reacted to their slaughtering of animals. I never understood it or took to it. It didn't toughen me up at all but caused me to recoil.

Apart from the past 20+ years, we used animals. Not to say we misused them, but they were food and working assistance. Now they're getting Christmas presents and taken for walks in a handbag.

Have to say that puzzles me also.

Anyone who thinks this is normal or even acceptable are f*cked in the head to a degree. We breed pedigree animals for our own likes and, in most cases, this makes them weak and problem-ridden. Dogs are toys, birds are kept in confined areas, etc.

I agree with this. esp dogs being bred with poodles so they do not shed hair while kept indoors. I hate seeing birds in a cage. Could never own one.

This isn't "loving" the animals, it's torturing them. Animals should be kept in line with their instincts, not in line with some misguided maternal instinct of our own.

The thing is, animals are evolving to become more domesticated. They are no longer used for work purposes or hunting and are adapting quite well. Some of the toy dogs do not like to be walked There are few people, places that can handle hunting dogs, or work dogs. I think they will die out.

I own a dog and a cat (although I'm not sure for how much longer, as it pissed on my shoes and I fear it may be having an accident shortly).

You might be the dominant figure for your dog, but obviously not for your cat. I like her defiance.

I trained the dog like a dog. I pinned it down, bit it when it did something wrong, slapped it and conditioned it with a reasonable level of fear - just like it would have experienced in a pack. As such, it's probably one of the most 'socially balanced' animals I know. It has no stress behaviour, does what it's told, and behaves like a lower-order pack animal in our house and is fiercely protective.

I am big on dog training and hate how people ruin them so they misbehave. None of my dogs showed stress or passive aggressive behaviour. I do like to incorporate a lot of play and games rather than making it all about obedience.

I think that people who treat animals like humans and often make comments like "animals won't let you down" are doing so because they're incapable of handling the complex interactions that human relationships involve, but they still need them and so animals are a good surrogate.

Maybe. And so what. Whatever gets you through....

Animals won't let you down, true, but then, neither will the vacuum cleaner and, when you're dead, little Foofoo will eat your rotting face while you lie in a pool of your own piss on the kitchen floor.

I actually had a nightmare last night that I had to vacuum the whole house.
You know it is ridiculous to compare a pet to a vacuum cleaner. As for Foofoo, he is entitled to eat the face of his owner if it means survival. There is nothing 'off' about it unless you attribute human values to his nature.

I took my kids out hunting as soon as they were old enough. They've shot rabbits and carried their dripping little bodies back to the house to be scooped out, chopped up and thrown in a curry.

Simply put, they were taught, "Don't aim a rifle at something you're not willing to kill, and don't kill something you're not willing to eat." The result is that they'll think twice before wasting raw meat. They know that throwing out meat because you chose to order a pizza instead of cooking the chicken in the fridge is killing a chicken for no reason. And they know what that feels like.

I didn't do that because I love animals, I did it because I wanted my kids to be mentally well-balanced and understand the true nature of how the world works.

Well, time will tell.
A girl I knew and disliked intensely used to feed her snakes live mice to teach her kids about life and death. Her kids grew into not so mentally balanced adults. Admittedly other issues could have been at play there.

DaturaInnoxia wrote:To add, I paid for my own cartons of cigarettes- not him - I just needed him to get them.

Sometimes people find things to have heated arguments about; to feel emotional intensity without having to admit that need.

Also, do you really think this thing with the cigarettes is about teaching him not to profit off friends?

If he profited off you, then why do you miss him more than he misses you?

And why does that irritate you?