What causes brain damage: Psychosis or Antipsychotics?

What, if any, causes any or more brain damage: Psychosis or Antipsychotics?

We have had Antipsychotics since the 50s and are still unsure whether they cause brain damage or not. I find this very suspicious. The same can be said regarding psychosis.

This question really bothers me because I feel as though big pharma already knows the answer but are just covering it up with the excuse that it is not ethical to test antipsychotics on people who are not psychotic. OK, I agree with that but in that case why don't they compare before and after CT scans of patients that were never psychotic but still used antipsychotics for conditions such as Bipolar or Autistic disorder? What are they waiting for? I don't think its normal to take +/- 42 years (since the invention of the CT scan) to conduct such a simple study. Perhaps this has already been done and if so, could someone please link me the report of the findings, thanks in advance.

If big pharma is talking, I assume I am hearing lies. Big corporations have no conscience, no ethics, no sense of social responsibility and care for nothing except $$$$.

untreated psychosis causes damage in temporal lobe. some random spots that have to do with visual or audio processing. schizophrenics have delayed reponse to audio for example, and some exectutive function. depending on if disorganized schizophrenic some NMDA or glutamate channels could be firing erratically.

antipsychotics on the other hand do damage mostly in the stratium and frontal cortex. supposively it is just 10% of gray matter, and some white matter. this is things like motor-movement, energy, personality.

the elarged vacouls based on "duration of untreated psychosis" and "antipsychotic" scans designates that the gray matter loss is due to the inhibition of growth peptides in the brain.

what someone can do to protect from gray matter loss is a variety of neuroprotectants available. i got off the antipsychotic, and i havent really been the same. but it is nothing "big". i would say it is due to the dysregulation of neurotransmitters during the day time. i still gain more speed later on in the day than in the morning.

at first i was completely zoned out, now i am still pretty zoned out. im on vegetable and fruit diet now it keeps my calm.

i can do calculations, but there is a sort of dissociation effect. which i read for some lasts about a year. its probably less damage than lets say a 1 year alchoholic. which also makes the brain smaller.


there are positive effects or some semi-positive effects. the white matter loss makes more tightly bound neurons once dendrites grow in place. there are also more binding sites through compensation for several other neurotransmitters. in a way my brain is more "lit", but also more "depressive".

visualizations wrote:untreated psychosis causes damage in temporal lobe. some random spots that have to do with visual or audio processing. schizophrenics have delayed reponse to audio for example, and some exectutive function. depending on if disorganized schizophrenic some NMDA or glutamate channels could be firing erratically.

antipsychotics on the other hand do damage mostly in the stratium and frontal cortex. supposively it is just 10% of gray matter, and some white matter. this is things like motor-movement, energy, personality.

the elarged vacouls based on "duration of untreated psychosis" and "antipsychotic" scans designates that the gray matter loss is due to the inhibition of growth peptides in the brain.

what someone can do to protect from gray matter loss is a variety of neuroprotectants available. i got off the antipsychotic, and i havent really been the same. but it is nothing "big". i would say it is due to the dysregulation of neurotransmitters during the day time. i still gain more speed later on in the day than in the morning.

at first i was completely zoned out, now i am still pretty zoned out. im on vegetable and fruit diet now it keeps my calm.

i can do calculations, but there is a sort of dissociation effect. which i read for some lasts about a year. its probably less damage than lets say a 1 year alchoholic. which also makes the brain smaller.


there are positive effects or some semi-positive effects. the white matter loss makes more tightly bound neurons once dendrites grow in place. there are also more binding sites through compensation for several other neurotransmitters. in a way my brain is more "lit", but also more "depressive".

Thank you for the detailed response visualizations. It's a damn shame that patients have to rely on a psych forum to get this sort of information instead of straight from the manufacturer, however don't get me wrong, I am grateful for your knowledge.

If a person is taking 4 mg of Risperdal, how long would you recommend that person to use the stuff before any significant risk of brain damage begins? In other words, when would you say it would be best to start coming off the stuff?

thank you visualizations your post was very insightful.

i actually asked my pdoc this exact question today. My memory is completely shot to pieces, and it was basically my best cognitive trait back in the day....i wanted to know if this is because of the antipsychotics i have been taking for the last 8 years, or just a product of schizophrenia itself. My pdoc basically said that it could be a mixture of both.

I tried to get off the meds recently, and got down to 5mg of olanzapine, but it wasn't worth it in my mind. I've almost got into several druken fights, then started accosting people at work....i decided that whatever the medication is doing to my brain, its not worth getting fired over. Now back on 7.5mg i can control myself better, and i guess either which way i have to accept whatever the meds or condition will do to my cognitive function.

Thanks for the info virtualisation.

RogerRabbit wrote:

visualizations wrote:untreated psychosis causes damage in temporal lobe. some random spots that have to do with visual or audio processing. schizophrenics have delayed reponse to audio for example, and some exectutive function. depending on if disorganized schizophrenic some NMDA or glutamate channels could be firing erratically.

antipsychotics on the other hand do damage mostly in the stratium and frontal cortex. supposively it is just 10% of gray matter, and some white matter. this is things like motor-movement, energy, personality.

the elarged vacouls based on "duration of untreated psychosis" and "antipsychotic" scans designates that the gray matter loss is due to the inhibition of growth peptides in the brain.

what someone can do to protect from gray matter loss is a variety of neuroprotectants available. i got off the antipsychotic, and i havent really been the same. but it is nothing "big". i would say it is due to the dysregulation of neurotransmitters during the day time. i still gain more speed later on in the day than in the morning.

at first i was completely zoned out, now i am still pretty zoned out. im on vegetable and fruit diet now it keeps my calm.

i can do calculations, but there is a sort of dissociation effect. which i read for some lasts about a year. its probably less damage than lets say a 1 year alchoholic. which also makes the brain smaller.


there are positive effects or some semi-positive effects. the white matter loss makes more tightly bound neurons once dendrites grow in place. there are also more binding sites through compensation for several other neurotransmitters. in a way my brain is more "lit", but also more "depressive".

Thank you for the detailed response visualizations. It's a damn shame that patients have to rely on a psych forum to get this sort of information instead of straight from the manufacturer, however don't get me wrong, I am grateful for your knowledge.

If a person is taking 4 mg of Risperdal, how long would you recommend that person to use the stuff before any significant risk of brain damage begins? In other words, when would you say it would be best to start coming off the stuff?

the damage happens right away, then it chips away a little. it blocks brain growth (BDNF). so in order to recover you have to increase brain growth, and neuroprotect. not with something like steriods though, or eating a lot of meat. that wouldnt do anything. that is why i used anti-oxidants, and a bunch of supplements from the start. you have to keep your brain in motion, but towards the right direction.


Hello.

I researched schizophrenia extensively all last summer. I read basically every neuroscience study there is on schizophrenia online, a lot of abstracts of course because a lot of them you have to pay for to see. I read several books. Looked at all the forums, and a lot of websites.

I would say that under 30, mostly around 25 it is very possible to get off the medicine, but it is a very tricky painful task.

I found out that there is a "withdrawal" phase from the antipsychotic that produces a "rebound psychosis".

First of all. It is very important to get off all dopaminergics including tobacco, caffeine, precursors, maois, etc. About 2-3 weeks before trying to get off.

To try to get off the medicine first you have to lower your symptoms while on the medicine. If they are lowered while on the medicine, then it is a sign you can get off. When your medicine is halfed or 1/3rd you can start to gain a lot more confidence to do it.

My medicine was halfed at one point by my doctor, but then I had to 1.5 instead. Starting with 2.

How you do this is lots of supplements to "alter, rebuild, smooth" over brain structure.

Some supplements that are viable while on the medication are phosphatydlserine complex (sharp-ps) formulation. The lindberg or vitamin shoppe ones are fine.

phosphatidylserine complex - 3 at night
omega 3/6/9 - 3 a day or night if temporary symptom increase
omega 3 - 2 a day or night
alpha-lipoic acid - 2 at night
vitamin b complex - 1 or 2 daily
niacinamide - 1 gram daily
aspirin or ibuprofen - whenever
light multivitamin complex - one that doesnt produce symptoms
vitamin c/e - several a day/night
alpha-gpc - 2 daily
lecithin - gram
n-acetyl-cysteine - 2 a day, possibly might produce some like discomfort.
nestle nutrition shake - protein/vitamins. the soluability of this is a lot higher than pills.

The main global dysregulation that I found that could help is schizophrenia is:
low BDNF
oxidation
neuroinflammation
beta-amyloid buildup
demyelination
kynurenic acid (cognitive symptoms)
dopaminergic structuralization
glutathione dysregulation

there is of course a lot more factors involved.

start off with this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hodr2r4h_8

for cognition - if you have to go to school and have schizophrenia (helps with cognitive symptoms)
b 12
b vitamin complex
niacinamide
nicotine (snus) or cigerettes
caffeine
alpha-gpc
piracetam - 5 grams twice a day
2 focus factor - walmart 20 bucks.

i was able to go to school on this formula around the year with very minimal disturbances at school. also maintain As or Bs except the first semester when I was on ativan/valium.


okay so. i read a bunch of studies. basically all of these help "a little". so i decided to combine them for several months. i felt myself getting better every single day after about a month. i tried a lot of things, so i also made some mistakes. (things that produced symptoms). schizophrenia is extremely sensitive.

getting off the medicine completly is the trickiest part. first try going off on the weekends untill your symptoms come back, 2-3 days in. or right away. be in a safe enviornment.

go down to half when you can. go back up. wait a week. go back to half. so your brain starts stabalizing. think in "brain cycles" cycles that I still have from when I was on the medicine. in terms of "speeding up" or "slowing down"

okay so take the jump completely. get off the medicine untill you cant take it anymore (constant semi-loud voices in head, some delusions). of course make sure that by this time the supplements did in fact make a noticable decrease in your symptoms. which means that you are "rational" most of the time with "symptoms" on the side and "episodes" of delusions.

okay. so i failed. the symptoms came back to strong. why? my brain sped up too fast, my dopamine channels of course couldnt arrange themselves that fast to get off the medicine.

go back on the medicine. then take the next weekend off again. keep taking the supplements everyday.

okay its been another month. half your dose for a day. its fine. half the half the next day. its annoying. okay go off. dont take the medicine. keep taking the comfortable supplements at night.

if the voices are still there louder than usual, but not "super loud" or super continious. then it means your in the "residual withdrawal phase". during this stage the brain is in some form really fast, and not stable. yet in other ways it is dampened from taking the medicine all that time.

so you have more voices/delusions then usual. i did this during break between summer/ fall semester. by fall semester i was still taking piracetam and a nicotine packet to go to class. (cognitive symptoms) but no caffeine. you have to analyze this aspect also. because if you are trying to get off the medicine while craving dopaminergics you're just going to feel a whole lot worse with symptoms.

in the fall. during classes i had minimal voices during class. only in private i had some. these werent continous instead the schizophrenic phenomenon was cyclic throughout the day. switching from haliperdol to risperdal helped a lot. i actually became more cyclic instead of continous on risperdal even though the sedation was worse.

okay so after you get off. like a week later or a few days later. after the "brain speed up". go on just a corner of the medicine. i was on the corner for about a month. this lowered symptoms as effectively as whole pill by that time.

first you have to let your brain "readjust" for the corner of the pill to work.

i felt really good during that time, but i felt like i might break out at any time of the day. so it was also a "turmoiled" time.

okay so dont do any drugs during this period, and you could recover completely. become residual which means that you only have some symptoms, but are mostly normal.

i made the mistake of taking mdma with methamphetamine one single night in december. i had only some "transient anomalie voices" in the shower or something during that period. i also started drinking alot which causes "neuroinflammation" which worsens schizophrenia.

my mood dropped when i got rejected to suicidal level. around november 25. i did the mdma a week before new years. i didnt know there was ampthetamines in it. then i continued drinking untill about march when i was only drinking weekly. by march 25 i quit fully this year.

around febuary i had continous voices again from the alchohol, but i continued with the supplements and my symptoms lowered again. neuroinflammation/gaba deficiency.

okay this month i have been pretty good, but not the state that i was at around late december. it takes several months for your symptoms to lower after getting off the medicine, but it is easily livable. of course unless you get extremely depressed. my psych didnt give me an antidepressant for a whole month, so i went to another psych and she said i had bipolar and couldnt prescribe antidepressant. she didnt know that the cyclic thing was because of first getting off the medicine (your mood/energy/negative symptoms could become erratic), then drinking 3-4 times a week.

so i had to get my antidepressant from another country because i of course did more research then all of them, and i was extremely certain that it would help my condition. obsession/depression. since antidepressants also curb obession.

i took the antidepressant for a week and a few days here and there, then summer came. by april im not depressed anymore, and my symptoms are transient.

still have negative symptoms though. im basically floating around in my head. i only seem to grab direction when i am walking or excerising then i feel energetic. i also quit smoking last month.

another thing that helped me quit drinking/smoking, and helped with my symptoms was the fruit/vegetable diet i did from march 20 to april 10th. i used this as a sort of detox, and i found that it helped with anxiety, depression a bit, overall wellbeing. i quit smoking before that around the start of march, but this helped lingering symptoms of addiction. through its nourishment of neurotransmitter stuff.

dont expect any single thing to help with schizophrenia recovery except those main pills though, and of course lots of time. also don't ruin it like i did. the only reason i decided to do mdma was because i was so messed up by that occurence that i used it as a way to accept my conditions. basically a kind of therapy. the first 2 weeks my symptoms were lowered (mdma), but then the following weeks my symptoms were heightened (adultered speed).

so i dont know if the crash just happened to me, but watch out for a possible crash. it was a 6 month crash, but i also enjoyed listening to music a lot.

other than that. i almost recovered very light residual. made my self worse with drugs. then recovered again with this sort of formula. light residual within a year. was on medicine last week of march last year. got off august. that was my third relapse, and "chronic" phase. the other times were 2 weeks and 2 months without medicine. so the supplements also seem to prevent relapse, but i have to wait about a year and a half to possibly recover fully or relapse. well basically i tested my limits - lots of stress, alchohol, drug and didnt relapse and actually got better pretty fast afterwards. so i could recommend.

the last comment i want to make is. if you want to recover. don't do any drugs. once you do partially recover or recover. you're done with drugs forever. drink that cup of coffee for 2 months, you'll hear a voice one day. drink alchohol for 3 months, you'll hear a voice. do some synthethic psychedelic drug, 2 months later you'll relapse. our brains are just too sensitive. even if you over do any kind of diet or food you'll mess up the equilibrium.

this partial recovery is really cool though. its like having a spiritual dimension over everything. everything that is fun like music or walking feels like a ritual. i was doing very well at social events during december, then it got bad/nervous in march. now its okay.

Impressive post, I think I remember being told the 3 mg of risperal was the max daily dose but it was a fews years ago and I was at ahcccs covered place(terros, Im not knocking them I am just saying) I have schizophrenia, I was diagnosed 7 years ago. I have nothing inteligent to add about the science of it, atleast anything you dont already know but I cant tell you that when ever I would stay on risperdal for a long period, my life seemed to beging to rebuild it self. I am a drug addict, bad one, I have often wondered how much the resperdal had to do with the rebuilding because I would always get back on the risperdal once I had felt enough grief about the chaos and drug use. In other words I would restart the meds shortly after the decision had been made to clean up my act a bit, also, When I would make the decision to let my resposibilities go and reenter the chaos, it was a decision made after a period of taking the resperdal for an extended period of time. I certainly do not blame the meds on my bad decisions, I dont need meds to make bad decisions, but I do wondered if that med helped at all. With your experience and research youve probably learned that it is very common for a short periods following quit meds is to be the happiest time of a patients life in recent memory. Thats no exception for me, I had wondered if risperdal has quality that lowers testosterone in men because I would really feel it go away while on the meds, but after stopping them my energy levels, sex drive, cofidence, etc would sky rocket, it would be like coming out of a longbland dream, the interesting part is that I didn't even realize just how bland it was until waking up. Example, getting out of my car at the super market on a cool evening and feel tears swell in my eyes because it was like I had been blind the beauty of life untill that very moment. I did much research also but in another direction. I did not give a hoot about what was already known and in books, My other was talking to me and just wanted one scrap of evidence but did not find it. I did learn some cools things. I learned about "spit brain patients" (actual term) some patients with history of intense life ruining sezures would undergo a procedure that would sever the corpos colusm. It's the bundle nerves connecting the brain hemispheres. The seizure are thought to be like a snowball like impulse strom between hemispheres so cut the nerve should stop them. It was said the spit brain patients could not be told apart by nonsplit brain patients unless unders specialized tests. The coolest story was about a patient who would from time to time see one of his hands undutonning his pants with no effort on his part, he also said the these occurences would always happen a the worst possible times only, pretty cool. It was asked about split brain patients, could they literaly be of 2 minds at once. Although that story indicates how much we do not know about ourselves, it was not entirely congruent for what I was looking for. Also, one last thing, what if the part of you that had no control over every limbs was still there watching there life go by, could you imagine?

Yeah I would consider the risperdone antagonism to be the best for structural changes so far.

There is this tricky article of studies that states that Atypical APs actually increase glial cells and increase neurogenesis in the hippocampus and increase BDNF. Which I would think is pretty unlikely as some of them antagonize 7 receptors.


Impaired Neuroplasticity in Schizophrenia and the Neuro-regenerative Effects of Atypical Antipsychotics
https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sa=X&ei=o ... 41&bih=568

there are images of risperdal causing hippocampal damage, but much less than haloperidol. the global dysregulation portion is correct though.

Yet there is some truth to the structural changes of Atypicals through the mediation of expression changes. Since it would be impossible for the brain not to have proper growth factors. Plus each AP has a different affinity for D2 receptors, etc. Risperdone having a lower more balanced affinity while latuda having a more potent D2 affinity yet less than haliperidol. I guess this would amount to the presynaptic blockage activity though.

There are different stances of NGF/BDNF in schizophrenics, most studies say that these are the messengers that were triggered wrongly in different parts of the brain. One case being overdevelopment of dopamine neurons in certain parts of the brain. Then other studies say that it is just an overall decrease of BDNF that doesnt allow the brain to make proper changes to align itself. Overall if the AP did decrease BDNF in a patients brain, after the initial break, the only way to get back anywhere else would be neuroplasticity which is only triggered by neurotrophic factors.

Another thing that should definetly added to their list and the list above on the global dysregulation of schizophrenia is NMDA hypofunction which is mentioned in many studies. Which does correlate to the glutamate exotoxicity. An NMDA agonist would only open the channels for more random bursts, but NMDA modulators would decrease abnormal patternings of these occurences. Which subjectively leads to the ability to at least differentiate delusion from reality.

It is true that risperdal does make one more "linear". I thought I was going to be fine. I was for a while untill one of my important goals wasent reached then I fell hard.

I'm actually doing an Ibogaine TA cleansing this month, and starting back up on my NMDA/AMPA glutamate modulation with several racetams. aniracetam increases visual perception, oxiracetam sound perception, piracetam mostly just increased lucidity. Along with possibly some BDNF enhancing supplement like lions mane. The reason i'm doing this is because after getting off the medication, consciousness seems to sink more back in its seat, overall perception is lowered possibly for years. It is also important to continue taking antioxidants, omega 3s and other fatty type acids along with some cognitive/negative symptom support or it all falls to peices. Basically my head feels like it is burning up and collapsing probably from the GABA/NMDA dysregulation of alchohol.

The tricky part is that one has to trust in the pharmacology because symptoms could seem to be increasing at first. Although if you search on the net, within the last 2 years people have posted their antipsychotic regimens even though some of them are pretty far-fetched. Someone mentions ampthetamines as a mechanism to run out dopamine basically cause dopamine downregulation by overfiring it which causes positive symptoms. I was actually doing nicotinic downregulation with cigerettes since it causes much much less positive symptom aggravation.

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/4011 ... ic-regimen


Anyways if you are in a safe position (mentally stable, medicine in hand for use 2 weeks later) it may be possible for you to do an ibogaine flood dose to relase any addictive properties/depression that your brain might have. What it causes is a complete brain de-frag, it is basically like a reset button where you won't crave anything for months. Allowing you to rebuild your ego, and feel a renewed sense of perception of the world. I would only do this after reading as much as you can and asking providers questions about it. Why I have to do it is that ive had this ocd that is just there every single day, and wont allow me to be mentally free from it. I talked to the provider and they said that it would increase my productivity, decrease depression, and overall produce a very quiet mental state. The only drawbacks of this pharmacologically is that it begins to increase DA 2 weeks after administration, and of course it is an NDMA antagonist which would increase cognitive symptoms. Other than that lots of time is my only other hope (neuroplasticity).


Yes risperdal does decrease androgens and increases prolactins. There should be some safe ways to increase it, but I feel that things like arginine create a sense of panic. I would say balanced protein would have a positive effect with most likely no positive symptom changes on the other hand.

Roger Rabbit,

I know no one has posted here for a year, and forgive me, I just joined this forum in the hopes of giving you a link to answer your question. Please understand, by no means do I advocate going off one's meds without psychiatric supervision, but I hope this link helps to provide you with the relatively new scientific answer to your question, that I did not see posted here previously.

Proof antipsychotics cause brain atrophy by Dr. Nancy Andreasen, as published in The Archives of General Psychiatry in 2011:

http://www.ahrp.org/cms/content/view/772/9/