God is the answer to all your problems

Care to expand on the underlined?

ocular_razor wrote:this one got long so i will break this up and discuss the old testament. but first in regards to what you said about scriptures having more scriptures thrown at you and science getting more science thrown at you, well doesn't this go along with relational reasoning? what is study besides verification? granted that theological study of consistencies isn't the same as consistency of say a nuclear chain reaction called on-the-spot. i think the point is there.

ocular_razor wrote:zausel when you say 'tautology' (first time i've heard that word) that reflects what i said about the context being lost and it's not that i'm entirely concerned with the idea the context was what i was looking for.

context how?Like i said i need examples or I dont completely comprehend what you mean.

Care to expand on the underlined?

sure just not yet.

i will try and not throw more scripture quotes at you but it'll probably happen to discuss lev. and chronicles.

firstly, what you say about hatred of gays and such was essentially the message spoken to the ruling religious elite in herod's time the pharisees. things like 'love the sinner' and the prodigal son and so on. where with the pharisees only the words were spoken when they taught but not the message.

What message was left out to make murdering homosexuals ok?

and believe me there's a lot that grinds inside. the interesting thing? is all it was the first time i picked the book up. but more things opened up just like any other kind of study. while i may not understand something now doesn't mean it will be held out of reach forever.

Ive studied the Bible, ive read the entire book. I don't like it because i read it. I read it and IMO thought it was a crock of crap with to many holes, contradictions and flat out horrible "moral" standards. The only parts i will somewhat agree with are some of Jesus Christs teachings.

but i think it's 'leviticus' that translates into 'law' i cannot remember if this is the case. as is written at mt. sinai the people were being given it by some ominous being and the people literally couldn't bear it so they said moses should go up himself and that's where he fasted for so long, twice. but it was what the people agreed to initially don't forget this. the reason behind every single law? i couldn't tell ya that. but much of it deals with perverting something for one's own gains and this is called an abomination. does it warrant death? i am not the one with the say. but we are told of physical and spiritual deaths being different things. scary stuff? sure as hell is.

Its not your place to say if unjustified murder is wrong? Any act that infringes on another humans right to live is never justified. As long as you do not infringe on another humans rights i could not care less what you do to yourself or in a group with consent. Yall could sit in a circle and brand each other with swastikas for all i care, if everyone has given consent, thats your prerogative. However as soon as someone tries to ban gay marriage, abortion or my ability to enjoy myself because a book says so, is when the line is crossed and respect in your religion is lost.


i will tell you my readings from the old testament show one consistency: israel falling away from and returning to yahweh. throughout all them books, the same exact thing!

but when you mentioned chronicles, that part, this is after israel was split into two parts, judah and israel. i will talk about who their neighbors were in a minute, but this is when they once again 'fell away' and then isaiah/jeremiah/ezekiel prophesied that they all would be exiled. they discuss what was going on. and involved as you say 'other gods' but it is important to recognize what would merit an exile. it is written that they were sacrificing their kids in fire (israel and judah that is). so the quote in chronicles talks about that turbulent time of quick-changing rulers where essentially each one is worse than the previous one, save for a couple.

So if another religion wishes to have torture sessions its wrong, but God himself can condemn a person to an infinite sentence of torture in Hell without question? doesnt that seem hypocritical?

also at that time there was no christianity, a good reference point is king solomon's time was 1000bc and then isaiah and jeremiah (the time of exile) was 500-600bc if i'm not mistaken.

what a fair question about deuteronomy and the murders! it seems real ###$ don't it? it's talkin about the conquest of canaan. but do you know about the nephilim? the rephaites and the anakites? there are bone records that indicate the existence of giants in the past. genesis says they were human-angel hybrids. the nazis called them supermen of atlantis. the greeks called them cyclops i believe. but they were the canaanites these giants, the offspring of the fallen angels who worshipped these angels.

Link me the evidence on giants. Also the verses dont say anything about self defense or being attacked.

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.

that doesnt say anything about being attacked or self defense. It says that if you notice another town is worshipping "pagan" gods you need to burn the town to the ground regardless of if it a threat or not.


also they did not slaughter them all. the israelites decided to take up business with them. yes these same people that were burning their children at the altar eventually convinced those israelites to do the same. they saw an opportunity for labor and exploited it that eventually led to their exile into assyria and babylon and such.

Regardless of it the acts happen or not, God wanted them to. Why would you listen to a god that wanted you to murder some people because a difference in faith? And they get punished because they didnt?

i ought not delve in further at the moment.

i will save the discussion on 'justice' for another time as well.

in regards to the underlined: i think that if you can step outside your own perspective and become disconnected from yourself, one shouldn't forget that to be 'disconnected' from something means that 'something' shouldn't be forgotten. if you have a giant periscope, you can certainly see things from that view. but you shouldn't forget what the view without the periscope is. i'm only again referring to taking everything into account is all.

And i do. Provide me sufficient evidence, and you can change my mind. I am a reasonable person.Provide me controlled unbias studies and experiments that say evolution does not happen and i will listen. I however do not blindly follow something because im told to. divine being are as ridiculous as Leprechauns IMO. However there is not sufficient evidence for Jesus being a divine being(A book simply saying he walked on water is not evidence) or god existing, therefore i throw it out. Im told that cannabis is bad, however ive done my own research and the truth is almost the compelte opposite of what the government tells me. I took into account that i could be being lied to, and i turned out to be correct.

it's like having your back against the corner. and ya hold up a mirror to see around the other side without exposing your body.

you can look in the mirror all ya want and see around the corner. but if you disregard the entire field of view around the mirror (in front of you) for too long then someone can come up and kick ya in the groin no problem.

You cant spout a Bible verse in a discussion, outside of christian theology discussions, and expect it to hold any ground.
If the Bible holds validity, then I can use the Twilight Series in my argument..

And i do. Provide me sufficient evidence, and you can change my mind. I am a reasonable person.Provide me controlled unbias studies and experiments that say evolution does not happen and i will listen. I however do not blindly follow something because im told to. divine being are as ridiculous as Leprechauns IMO. However there is not sufficient evidence for Jesus being a divine being(A book simply saying he walked on water is not evidence) or god existing, therefore i throw it out. Im told that cannabis is bad, however ive done my own research and the truth is almost the compelte opposite of what the government tells me. I took into account that i could be being lied to, and i turned out to be correct.

ocular_razor wrote:and i say this because if something has no application then it is 'just words'. it's like explaining a card game that uses 24 cards only but this is where i think confusion stems from.

would it not be frivolous to discuss something just to pass time? surely it would. but if two parties oppose each other in asserting somethings applicability or not? depends on the persons really but usually they call this politics.

It is just words. IMO the Bible is a non-fiction book that got way to out of hand over time. People took this book to seriously and now people thing it is not non-fiction but fiction. This is the equivalent of someone believing the Twilight series is fiction and actually happened in Washington(i think thats were the story takes place). Sure there are some good morals or asop stories in it, but the fact that Vampires and Werewolves do not exist is not a discussion. Sure the Bible has a few good stories, but the existence of Jesus and God as divine being is not a discussion. The burden of proof is on the ones claiming it as true. And since no Christian and no Twilight fan can prove Vampires, Werewolves, God, and Jesus as a divine being, exist, it is ignorant to assume they do.Take God and Jesus being a prophet of God out of the Bible and i will listen.

it is absolutely essential that things aren't cherry picked and this goes for all parties. it's certainly about melding things together and the more something is melded the more applicability it has. i think even if you consider something to be a tale well are there not morals to fables? personally i do not see it as a fable but what i'm getting at here is the notion of its applicability that is ever-asserted nowadays to be nonexistent. you can easily list one/two verses that seem unreasonable on their own but is that any better than the religious folk who do the same thing? cherry-picking occurs and leads to 'holes' but i have found the more understanding of something, the less it seemingly contradicts. cherry-pick? and the context is lost. 'limited scope'...'looking at the mirror around the corner while not looking in front of you'. i don't think i need to explain context.

Yes there are. But when you add into the fables God, these morals crumble. "love your neighbor as you love yourself. great $#%^, i fully agree. i wont argue. Lets read on. "kill all the homosexuals". what? didn't you just say love your neighbors? How can i possibly take these stories seriously when the next story contradicts the last story. I prefer to get my morals from something that wont contradict itself. its care to confusing.

The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘Any Israelite or any foreigner residing in Israel who sacrifices any of his children to Molek is to be put to death. The members of the community are to stone him. 3 I myself will set my face against him and will cut him off from his people; for by sacrificing his children to Molek, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. 4 If the members of the community close their eyes when that man sacrifices one of his children to Molek and if they fail to put him to death, 5 I myself will set my face against him and his family and will cut them off from their people together with all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molek.
6 “‘I will set my face against anyone who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute themselves by following them, and I will cut them off from their people.

7 “‘Consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am the LORD your God. 8 Keep my decrees and follow them. I am the LORD, who makes you holy.

9 “‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. Because they have cursed their father or mother, their blood will be on their own head.

10 “‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.

11 “‘If a man has sexual relations with his father’s wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

12 “‘If a man has sexual relations with his daughter-in-law, both of them are to be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads.

This seems pretty straight forward. if you see adultry happen, kill them. There is nothing to take out of context with the way it is worded. It is as day and night as...well, day and night.

27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

What is out of context. It goes straight to the next point. It doesnt further explain, well if this happens they can live. Nah it says if they commit adultry, kill them, point blank. There are no explanations being left out.

The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: ‘Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy.
3 “‘Each of you must respect your mother and father, and you must observe my Sabbaths. I am the LORD your God.

4 “‘Do not turn to idols or make metal gods for yourselves. I am the LORD your God.

5 “‘When you sacrifice a fellowship offering to the LORD, sacrifice it in such a way that it will be accepted on your behalf. 6 It shall be eaten on the day you sacrifice it or on the next day; anything left over until the third day must be burned up. 7 If any of it is eaten on the third day, it is impure and will not be accepted. 8 Whoever eats it will be held responsible because they have desecrated what is holy to the LORD; they must be cut off from their people.

9 “‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the foreigner. I am the LORD your God.

11 “‘Do not steal.

“‘Do not lie.

“‘Do not deceive one another.

12 “‘Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.

13 “‘Do not defraud or rob your neighbor.

“‘Do not hold back the wages of a hired worker overnight.

14 “‘Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the LORD.

15 “‘Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.

16 “‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people.

“‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the LORD.

17 “‘Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt.

18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

Ok, this makes sense. Dont treat people like crap. Treat others as you would like to be treated yourself. i like this. i can agree. But what if they are homosexual? what if they are Muslim? you must kill them. Do you not see these contradictions?

the problem associated with abominations? is that it is chalked up to biblical jargon. stuff that doesn't apply. yet now we are stuck with aids due to such behavior. are ya a fan of gene-splicing and human/animal hybrids? (i don't mean people's ears on mice backs) become familiar with the idea as it is becoming more common. they call them 'experiments' ya know, for the sake of knowledge.

Abominable - worthy of or causing disgust or hatred.quite disagreeable or unpleasant

Does anyone deserve this treatment? no. Not even Man-bear pig. If you choose to be half dog, that is your issue. I may not date you, but i wont hate you.

i think during your reading you had ignored what a 'threat' the nephilim were. not only were the israelites 'like grasshoppers' in comparison, they taught them to burn their own kids in the fire. you only are hung up on gays and say i don't find that unacceptable but i'm starting to think that you find burning children acceptable.

no, i cant say im a fan of catching children on fire. I just find it ironic That God is so hellbent on these other people torching their children when God torches his own children in a place called Hell. A little hypocritcal dont ya think? " Only I am allowed to torment and set fire to my own children, what you are doing is unjustified."

yes you question my ideaology that it is not my place to say if 'unjustified murder' was right or wrong yet you say it's not someone else's place to say what's right or wrong (in regards to libertarian politics which I happen to side with). also you stated previously that the universe holds no reason yet you are looking for right or wrong? which is it?

The only moral law i stand by is: If it infringes on someone else, you crossed the boundary. If your wife tells you to kill her, she has given consent thus i dont give a $#%^. If your wife says dont kill me, and you do, you crossed the boundary and this is when i care.

Give yourself tattoos, cut your own fingers off, jerk someone else off who gave consent, cut your tongue out, stab yourself, i dont care, you can do what you want to yourself or to anyone who gives you consent. However if you go up to a person and stab them without them giving you consent to stab them, you crossed the boundary and i now care.



no, do not 'blindly follow something' because you're told to. i already said this and am in agreement with you.

you agree with some of jesus' teachings. you wouldn't be cherry picking would you? not the stuff you find agreeable i hope? it is written to 'love the sinner' but at the same time he says to 'repent'. is this agreeable or disagreeable?

If i had to cherrypick the Bible would be 1-3 pages long. If i cant cherrypick, burn the book because its useless. Sure ill love the sinner, but im not gonna ask for forgiveness to something that doesnt exist. but if i cant love because i wont ask for forgiveness, screw this book, ill love the sinners while i burn this book.


paul writes to give with a glad heart, not out of 'brainwashing' or 'blindly' or 'forcedly'.

If this is the case, who would believe in God? You can only blindly believe, its the only option. If it wasnt there would be evidence linking something to a divine being, undisputed.

also written to the church of laodecia is 'lukewarm'ness.

no application? far from it.

i see that you are a libertarian as i am. --> hm, i wrote this somewhere else but whatever --< and honestly people take their liberties for granted and i don't have a problem mixing politics with this discussion but believe me it'll get hairy real fast. we can mix politics, banks, future crimes, you name it if you want.

sure, im up for whatever discussion.

-- Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:29 am --

if you don't mind the two post back-and-forth is a bit much for me so i hope to wrap up this out-of-phaseness here.

And i do. Provide me sufficient evidence, and you can change my mind. I am a reasonable person.Provide me controlled unbias studies and experiments that say evolution does not happen and i will listen. I however do not blindly follow something because im told to. divine being are as ridiculous as Leprechauns IMO. However there is not sufficient evidence for Jesus being a divine being(A book simply saying he walked on water is not evidence) or god existing, therefore i throw it out. Im told that cannabis is bad, however ive done my own research and the truth is almost the compelte opposite of what the government tells me. I took into account that i could be being lied to, and i turned out to be correct.

i think you picked up on something i did not intend. firstly i'm not 'hellbent' on changing your mind only that we can mutually add things on top of both our queues. but what you were responding to i meant nothing regarding evolution and i previously stated its plausibility and my agreements with it.

I didnt say ya were. I just said im open to new ideas if someone can prove it exists. Why do i accept that the universe is expanding? cause i said prove it, and they did. Thus i have no reason to think otherwise.

and yes the government lies and more than just they lie many with ulterior motives. but take note on who doesn't reason with you, a great example is the war on drugs and the lack of reasonable reasonability behind it.

agreed.

ocular_razor wrote:i asked you before about when someone asks for 'proof' of scriptures and i asked rhetorically how this is even possible (not in these same exact words but contextually) but i think the point was lost. and then i brought up apples falling from trees to bring to light that there are different kinds of proof. but ultimately much of what i was getting at is whatever proof you think should be given won't be found (your expected proof i mean, expectations do no one any good).

It isnt. thus i dont bother with belief systems.what do you think proof is? there is only one kind of proof. Indisputable observable facts.An apple falling is of this proof. Im not sure where your getting at. i dont expect a certain result unless im trying to test for a certain thing. I however expect proof of whatever result did occur, if you wish to tell me something. You want to tell me your stuff bear is alive? ok, lets entertain this, prove it. Unless you show me a stuffed bear that is alive, ill leave. he said/she said statements dont fly. wait, what your trying to tell me is God is real, but the evidence for his existence is not what ill expect? In which case how can you be so sure yourself?

proof - evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.
evidence - that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.

the righteous thing about this entire thing? ya don't 'gotta' believe in any of it. who here is forcing you to? if you're in the u.s. the govt. certainly doesn't force you. seperation of church and state? means the state can't tell ya who to worship if anyone.

lol. I am forced. They may not can force me to worship their god, but they sure can impose their crazy ideals on me, and most people. A homosexual is forced into not being able to get married because a Christian does not think it is acceptable. I am forced to not learn evolution is school because some Christian doesnt want their children to know the truth. Some 16 year old girls live is being ruined because of one mistake, because some Christian doesn't think abortion is right. When people vote for a candidate simply because he is a Christian and not for his policies, i AM getting this belief forced on me. Mitt Romney may be our next president simply because he is Christian. This scares the ever living hell out of me. Mitt Romney, a president?!? kill me know. When these people impose their believes they got from a damn book, it does affect me, sorry to say. You may have the illusion we have a separation of church and state, but almost every politicians is Christian and all their views are based on the Bible. These Christian "morals" and "views" are all over the government.

what do you do in other circumstances when something seems a contradiction? i suppose it depends on what's being studied/heard, right? for me in either instance, usually the first thing to do is is get more info (i don't mean the contradictory tv commercials but a speaker). what do you do with more info besides melding it with the initial stuff?

What do you mean? Either God lied, or hes contradicting himself.Either way a perfect being does not do either of these. If something contradicts itself i first see what it is based on. A controlled scientific study or a he said/she said statement. A study today could out-rule a study done 4 years ago. Einsteins General Relativity out ruled Newtons Theory of Gravity. New technology allows us to look at things with greater detail. Newton simply could not have tested space-time theories, he did not have the technology. Thus his theory was top of the line during his time. Einstein had the technology, and the brain to test and think up that Newton could be wrong. Science is constantly changing. Something thought to be true gets proven wrong all the time and replaced with a better model of whats actually happening. Chances are with newer technology and new minds, this new model will be replaced. Does this mean science is a study of making stuff up? no. Based on what technology is give nat that specific time, the technology proved it to be true. people thought Protons,Neutrons and Electrons were the smallest particles of existence. new technology says this is wrong, Quarks and Leptons are smaller. New technology may then prove this wrong and find new evidence to make this wrong. think of it as stairs. Without the bottoms stairs you cannot reach the top stairs. You cnat jump from the floor to the top of the stairs. You had to discover atoms(first step) to discover quarks(second step). Eventually the third step will be found, and depending on how big this stair case is, it found end there, or keep going.

when you bring up 'torching children in hell' firstly i cannot say i'm by any means an expert on hell so take it for whatever you feel. but the constant allusions throughout the new testament? i would have to conclude that it is not 'god's children' thrown into the 'pit'. honestly i think it would do you better to talk to someone more calm/loving/knowledgeable than i regarding hell. but, things like 'a landowner built a winepress, hired workers then later sent for rent money...', 'sheep seperated from goats...', 'ten women had lamps, five didn't fill them up...' and so on. and then revelations talks a lot about this too.

children or not, its still hypocritical to be shocked by them burning humans at stakes then condemning other humans who don't believe in you to be tortured for eternity. Your not related to me but id never wish for you to burn and be tormented for eternity. eternity is very long time. Those children agree to being burned on stakes as much as i agree to burning in hell for eternity, they and I absolutely dont agree to either terms and conditions. But we both are forced into this.

your response after i said what paul writes. we can get into the semantics on 'belief' and 'blindly' i think it's not necessary though. honestly i think what you wrote reflects the results of ruling churches of this time that only seek to build its treasury. believe it or not, not too many people enjoy being totalitarianly told to 'believe this' or 'that'. i think it's a mistake to suggest that everyone only believes something because they weren't 'outright told' by someone to believe in something else.

Then how do you explain a child growing up Christian? I doubt his parents took him to a muslim temple, jewish temple, the idea that there may not be a god, talked to a buddhist monks, or Rasta beliefs? His parents said, your Christians now get your ass in church. Now by the time he would be old enough to decide what to believe hes been indoctrinated to the point hes delusional. If you ask most Christians, they will tell you they grew up Christian, they didn't decide this. Tell a kid santa is real and he believes you until you tell him he isn't. Its just Christians never tell their kids there are other options or God doesn't exist.Indoctrination is a hard thing to shake.

no, don't confuse 'blindness' with 'exploited psychology'. not too many people do things without reason. 'you' might call a reasoning you disagree with 'blind' but wouldn't this context of blindness we're talking about refer to non-reason? if you want to get a better context of blindness, just watch voting constituents keep voting for the same crooks each election.

Nah, blindly means believing something without evidence without question. If someone told me we live in a Matrix, and i believed it id be blindly following it. There is no evidence to support this Matrix claim other than some dude told me. reasoning i don't agree with is an opinion. You like cookies, and i like cake. You like crunchy foods and i like soft foods. its a difference in opinion not a blind argument.But dont forget not all opinions are factually based. This i call ignorance.

I am forced to not learn evolution is school because some Christian doesnt want their children to know the truth.

ocular_razor wrote:mitt romney is a mormon though some people say it's a sect of christianity i say it's even further off than catholicism (also a sect of christianity). and the only thing that the guy scares ya about is religion? you are blatantly ignoring just about every aspect of leadership man. what makes you any better than the voters who only vote for someone out of religious purposes huh?