Therapists are the ones I dislike

TIM,

I do agree that ion some part mental anguish can be caused by excessive thinking. I also know from experience that as physical objects our brain functions (electrical impulses, chemical interactions) are affected by environmental factors. No amount of rational thought can overcome sever food deprivation, for instance. The mind will lose the ability to ration without rations.

An attachment to false ideals is problematic from many standpoints. In education, politics, religion, etc. Anytime an imaginary concept is revered more than reality dissonance will ensue. This is not to say we should not conceptualize anything. By having an ideal of fear or an ideal of hope we are motivated to hide or fight.

I disagree that animals cannot make cognitive comparrisons. Whatever internal mental faculties animals conduct are generally undectectable by humans (some claim to know the thoughts of critters, but most don't). Just because we cannot detect something does not negate its import-its "realness". We cannot see cosmic radiation, but some of our creations (technologies) can. Perhaps we will find one day that those who anthropomorphized animals, were indeed correct. Perhaps animals do think of themselves in comparisson to others. I have seen animals cooperate based on differening talents and find it hard to think they are unaware of their differences.

From personal experience I know that a person can outreason anguish. The ability to self-soothe is a hallmark of a healthy individual. We can "talk ourselves down." I disagree with Hume.

You noted that action is based on a maximization of benefits. Does not the act of reasoning lead one to choose from among percieved benefits? One must make value judgments and predict outcomes in order to say "this will benefit me more than that".

I disagree with any philosophy that dictates only one causality for all else. To say that pleasure alone drives us is in some respects true. But the source of that pleasure can be pain. Self-harm and deprivation illlicits a "feel-good" responce in some individuals, so through hedonistic desire they cut or starve themselves. Altruism is the ultimate "feel good", achieved by putting oneself in jeopardy for the benefit of another. Pleasure from pain.

Desire may drive action, but reason can create desire where none existed before. Desire does indeed cause angst. The very definition of desire is for something you do not have. You do not desire what you have. Semantics....

There are indeed many "opiates." Some with more detrimental side effects than others. The denial of all desire could lead to what many would consider negative effects.

I am a believer in totality. Rational and Irrational. Hell, I even marginally believe in that which I do not believe entirely.

Moss

Moss wrote:TIM,


From personal experience I know that a person can outreason anguish. The ability to self-soothe is a hallmark of a healthy individual. We can "talk ourselves down." I disagree with Hume.

You noted that action is based on a maximization of benefits. Does not the act of reasoning lead one to choose from among percieved benefits? One must make value judgments and predict outcomes in order to say "this will benefit me more than that".


Moss

Hi,

What I was saying really is that reason is a tool, not a motivator. It lets us analyze and select those actions or behaviors which we think may lead to the outcome desired. We are never motivated by reason itself to do anything, however -- it simply is a tool. Our actions always comes from a stimulii, never from reason as the starting point.

Ask yourself the following question -- Why do we do anything at all? The answer is never , "Because I had a rational thought." Its always, "..because I had an impulse, was reacting to an impulse, was reacting to pleasure, pain, anxiety, fear etc....We then may use reason to figure out the best way to remove the pain, mazimize the pleasure reward, decrease anxiety. But we always do so out of our desire to do just those things, not because reasson motivated us to do so. Reason just gave us a solution to achieve the goal.

For example, one might think a scientist is motivated by reason to find a causal mechabism for some phenomenon or a mathematican is motivated by reason to solve an equation. The motivation and initital impetus to action is curioisty(the desire to know and understand, or conversely, the anxiety that comes with not knowing.)

Before reason is employed, there must be an impetus to employ reason to achieve an end. It is not an instinct or an impulse, it is a mechanism that allows rational beings to make decisions. It is entirely subservient to instinct.

Or, as Hume observed, "Reason has never motivated a man to do anything." We are creatures of instinct acting on imuplse. Our ultimate goal is to maximize pleasure and minimize pain. We are hedonists to the end. That is how we are 'programmed' and wired by nature. That is how we survive.

Well, this is my third attempt to post a reply. Perhaps this time, the internet connection will hold. INthose attempts my thougths on the matter have been reduced to the following:



We could discuss our philosophies with many words.

Until then,
respectfully,
Moss

Well, people will dissagree on these matters. Words are the only tools we have to express ideas like these. Words are simply metaphors and obviously we are limited by semantics. If everyone aggreed, there would be no such thing as philosophy.

I enjoy philosophy and mathematics. Its kind of a hobby and I read quite a bit -- its what I like doing on the weekends and evenings, besides surfing the net. Right now I am reading a lot of existentialist philosophy and have been reading a math textbook on the application of Commutative Rings in Gauge theory. I also enjoy reading some of the popular literature in the area of religion. I especially enjoy Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris.

It can be quite enjoyable to discuss the Big Topics. Especially when the banalities of cat litter become simply to much to bear.

I stand in no paricular disagreement to your statments and reasonings. I only chose to take no one-pointed stance on any matter. My brain lacks the capacity to see anything without a fractualized view. I like it that way. Seeing the world through kaleiscopes.

I am currently reading The Well-Crafted Argument: A Guide and Reader. It's some college text, I believe. Having taken logic, philosophy, and analytical reading courses in college myself, much of the information is review. I enjoy primarily reading the various selected texts utilized to further the teaching goals of the book.

Moss

Thisisme:

I'm sorry for all you have been through. I hope you continue to find strength and hope to become victorious in your life's struggles.

I myself am going through a rough time dealing with my own anxieties, and my brother who became psychotic, and it stopped me dead in my tracks and really made me question life, meaning, and so forth. I have been so frightening by the prospect of death, meaninglessness, loneliness, going crazy myself...a long list of things.

But I am speaking to a therapist and is helping me deal with some of these deep dark emotions and try (just try!) to adapt to changes in my life and my brother's illness. I do not have experience being hospitalized myself but I do have experience of seeing my brother there and I abhor it with all my senses. I cried many times seeing my brother there and it still brings tears to my eyes to imagine and relive the past. I can not emphasize how much I hated it and how helpless I felt for myself and for him.

Yet there was a time when people got exorcised or imprisoned for their illness and I think today's mental hospitals are an improvement.

I think maybe you expect too much from therapists. The good ones are there to listen. It's not an easy job to listen to people's problems all day long. But the good ones are attentive and sympathetic. Beyond that, each has been trained under a particular view of life. If they think your problems are biological/genetic they really have nothing to offer. So you get cognitive, behavioral, psychodynamic, etc.

None may work. There are no guarantees in life. Nobody says psychotherapy has to work. But you're a fighter. You try to read philosophy, try to find other things. They may not work either. Sometimes things work in a certain time in your life and other things work in a different period. It requires patience and the belief that you will EVENTUALLY find something that works.

I know myself tend to obsess about things and it simply makes me more anxious. I go real deep trying to find studies and research for this and that and self-diagnose and it's not helping. It would be much better to go and have fun and not dwell on these things too much.