-WHY WHY WHY, WON'T YOU FIGHT BACK-

I think it is rather offensive and narrowminded to group everyone who has criticism of psychiatry under the name "tin foil hatters". It's an easy way to respond to serious arguments that you dont want to hear - "you're crazy!"

Your reasoning is flawed btw.

I for example was the one posting the UN citation that disagrees with current psychiatric practice (not the one on jews & UN). I don't believe in conspirancy theories and I don't believe jews in the UN (?) are responsible for the flaws in psychiatry. Where exactly is the double think then? Did it cross your mind that maybe different people can sometimes have different opinions? Wouldn't that be a more logical explanation than an inability to think logically and consistently?

I simply know - as does all my family - that psychiatry has ruined my life. I was a normal woman with a temporary problem. Psychiatry made my problem much bigger and chronic. They did nothing that really helped. Since then I have started to read up. Not on conspirancy theories, but on scientific literature and serious studies on medicine and psychiatry. I found out that what they have been doing and telling me was simply scientifically not right.

I base my opinion on my own experiences and on a broad review of scientific literature. What is wrong with that? Have you got experience with psychiatry yourselves, except for being one of the Lucky ones not having bad responses to antidepressants? Have you read up on scientific studies about meds and psychiatry?

BTW - my family, the main family organization for psychiatric patients and some leading psychiatrists in my country have the same opinion. They are currently putting a lot of pressure to politics and psychiatry because they feel current practice is very damaging and not healing and something needs to change - fast. Tin foil hatters too?

Marian wrote:I think it is rather offensive and narrowminded to group everyone who has criticism of psychiatry under the name "tin foil hatters". It's an easy way to respond to serious arguments that you dont want to hear - "you're crazy!"

Your reasoning is flawed btw.

I for example was the one posting the UN citation that disagrees with current psychiatric practice (not the one on jews & UN). I don't believe in conspirancy theories and I don't believe jews in the UN (?) are responsible for the flaws in psychiatry. Where exactly is the double think then? Did it cross your mind that maybe different people can sometimes have different opinions? Wouldn't that be a more logical explanation than an inability to think logically and consistently?

I simply know - as does all my family - that psychiatry has ruined my life. I was a normal woman with a temporary problem. Psychiatry made my problem much bigger and chronic. They did nothing that really helped. Since then I have started to read up. Not on conspirancy theories, but on scientific literature and serious studies on medicine and psychiatry. I found out that what they have been doing and telling me was simply scientifically not right.

I base my opinion on my own experiences and on a broad review of scientific literature. What is wrong with that? Have you got experience with psychiatry yourselves, except for being one of the Lucky ones not having bad responses to antidepressants? Have you read up on scientific studies about meds and psychiatry?

BTW - my family, the main family organization for psychiatric patients and some leading psychiatrists in my country have the same opinion. They are currently putting a lot of pressure to politics and psychiatry because they feel current practice is very damaging and not healing and something needs to change - fast. Tin foil hatters too?

That's not exactly what I did. What I'm seeing here is a bunch of people calling themselves the anti psychiatry movement. There seems to be a general opinion here that psychiatry is a sinister plot and that far from it being a caring profession it's a torture industry and about mind control. As long as there's a consensus about that any crackpot is welcome because after all they're not really crazy even if they do think that wearing a foil hat is normal behaviour or so it seems. It's what's known as an echo chamber.

Yes, I did a fair bit of research when I got involved with a girl with a personality disorder. I also have a brother that has mental health problems and he told me that he overcame some problem each time he was in hospital. I detoxed from alcohol dependency with a prescribed drug.

You're making out that I'm some sort of exception because I used an antidepressant for a couple of years and it didn't do me any harm. Yet they're routinely prescribed to all and sundry these days and if people complain about them it's usually just to say that they don't work.

NoM8s wrote:There's a genuine problem taking these sorts of complaints about psychiatry seriously. A lot of this sort of thinking is done by tin foil hatters. I've read threads here myself that blamed it on jews and a conspiracy orchestrated by the united nations. Then somebody else pulls out UN reports condemning practices in psychiatry and it suddenly suits them to do that, which is incompatible with the conspiracy theory but that doesn't matter because thanks to the power of doublethink we can acomidate contradictory ideas in our heads effortlessly.

But where does that term come from? Sure lots of people make all sorts of outrageous claims without proof, and anyone can say anything on the internet, however it does not change an individual's first hand experience with psychiatry.

UN reports, psychiatry truth movements, independent doctors, ect can all exist because psychiatry does not control everything outside its industry.

I do think making more of a difference between conspirancy theories and fundamental criticism of psychiatry would be good. But people just have really bad experiences in psychiatry and there is some real problem here with the way psychiatry is set up.

About you being a lucky one. The general, average effect of these meds is that they make people worse in the long run (see scientific evidence in other topic). Of course... I know people too in which meds either don't work, or they can come on and off them without trouble. But I know many who, like me, have severe trouble coming on and off these drugs and who are stuck on the drugs and/or severely harmed (f.e. anhedonia, early dementia, neuroleptic malignant syndrome, tardive dyskynesia). And many more who don't notice the effects themselves, but they are there (f.e. their family sees that they are not themselves anymore, their disease gets worse from meds but it's blamed on the disease). You never know in advance to which group you belong! So you are lucky if you have no problem!

I think psychiatry should not be so blind and dishonest about that. If I would have had honest information about the drugs, I would never have started them.

I am (genuinely) wondering btw - what did they do with your brother that helped?

I sometimes wonder if the Netherlands is just really backwards. I have seen better things from psychiatry in Germany and Scandinavia. But here... when I was in the ward, they would just lock me up and force a standard dose haldol on me. The nurses would sit in their office, write reports, google holiday resorts (really!) and chat about their weekends. You'd see a just-graduated general doctor once a week for a short time (15-30min). And the psychiatrist you would see only if you did something really out of the ordinary (I ran away, when I returned I saw the psychiatrist and they wanted to discuss the treatment plan with me ). Oh, and there was this lady who would take the patients out for a walk every day. But no therapy, no groups, no psychologist, nothing. They would not take a biography or test or anything else to diagnose you. There was just...well...nothing really.

I really learned a lot from some fellow patients though. That I must admit.

Is it different in other countries?

I did do a quick search for articles about the effectiveness of psychiatric drugs actually. One by the psychiatrists themselves states that antidepressants seem to be ineffective except in severe cases. This is the thing. These are powerful mind altering drugs that could conceivably do more harm than good if prescribed inappropriately.

If you go back in history a bit you can find research into the use of LSD in the treatment of psychiatric disorders. There were some positive results but all of that research was shut down by anti-drug propaganda. LSD is undeniably a dangerous drug if used inappropriately but under the right circumstances who is to say that it couldn't really help some people to use it?

I don't really know what helped my brother but probably he benefited from talking to mental health professionals about his problems in some way. From the little that I've seen of mental hospitals here socialising with other patients and group therapy is part of the treatment, so they don't just drug you and shut you in a room. There's obviously an element of rest and recuperation to being in hospital though and they don't want you disturbing other patients.

NoM8s wrote: These are powerful mind altering drugs that could conceivably do more harm than good if prescribed inappropriately.

Yes.. that's my main problem with psychiatry.

I believe there are situations in which a patient is better off with meds. If someone is intensily and chronically psychotic for a long time and doesn't come out of psychosis with different treatments, medication might make their life more bearable. If someone has severe depression and suicidal ideation for a long period of time and has tried different ways, yes, meds can be a life saver.

But many patients are now completely unaware that they are actually taking a powerful, mindaltering drug. Doctors so easily hand out pills...people just aren't aware of the effects, the risks and harms. I was prescribed strong antipsychotics because I was temporarily scared of some scary circumstances. I was in a panicky situation and had no idea what I was taking (stupid, I know). People with depression, fear, mania and even psychosis normally come out of that on their own after a while...exercise helps, CBT helps, psychotherapy helps, diet helps...even waiting patiently might help (most depressions disappear in 12-16 weeks). Why not try all other means first, before turning to something so hazardous as psychotropic drugs?!?

Psychiatrists should be obliged to honestly inform people about the dangers and the alternatives and be really careful with drugs. People in bad circumstances don't always have the capacity to find out about that by themselves.

Or actually... I believe the psychologist might be a better "head of treatment" (literal from dutch) and the psychiatrist with his meds should only be consulted if no other strategy has worked.

A lot of it's because it's not particularly easy to correctly diagnose a mental illness. How can you tell if she's BPD or bipolar? Well, if she doesn't respond to antidepressants we can probably rule out bipolar disorder.

NoM8s wrote:A lot of it's because it's not particularly easy to correctly diagnose a mental illness. How can you tell if she's BPD or bipolar? Well, if she doesn't respond to antidepressants we can probably rule out bipolar disorder.

That is another huge issue in psychiatry. Misdiagnosis is a norm, and comorbidity further raises red flags. Ive known people get tons of different diagnosis over time, and in my case everyone I saw had a different label. My beef is once a psychiatrist makes a diagnosis, they refuse to reconsider no matter how hard you try. If this is during forced treatment you can not change anything. You have to endure the treatment for that disorder which they wrote down. You can not fight it. They either try to brainwash you as being wrong, try to calm you "lets agree to disagree" or use it as further evidence to support being mentally ill. Psychiatrists are taught that any questioning of authority is the by product of illness and must be treated as resistance to treatment.

So, I must sound like a broken record but I still don't understand -WHY WHY WHY, WON'T YOU REALLY FIGHT BACK-.... Complaining on this forum is not really fighting back, -YOU- must believe that human being's with mental illness, their lives don't matter.... Please, prove me wrong and prove that human beings with mental illness, their lives do matter and they will fight buy any means that is necessary to protect your human GOD given rights....