I don't think most of you have "illnesses"

yourthoughtcriminal wrote:Now, before you jump down my throat here me out. I don't doubt for a second that the members of the board are suffering from all kinds of mental and emotional traumas, I know I do.

But does that really make you an "ill" person?

If you've been abused as a child, ridiculed, harassed, cast out - the natural, healthy response is to dislike and/or have a fear of people. To realize the world isn't the candy-filled wonderland we were promised by the media - you should be angry. When you see the state the world is in economically, politically, socially and realize it's out of your control - you should be depressed!

You should work on these issues and get yourself in a better headspace without a doubt. I wish you all the best in your journey. But don't think that you're the ill person if you're poorly adjusted to a sick, sick society.

I have a blog post that covers this in a bit more detail (I feel like an asshole posting a link to my blog here but I believe it may be helpful.)

*Mod Edit*

Best Regards guys

twistednerve wrote:Now if you wanna say bipolar, schizophrenia, borderline personality disoder and severe OCD aren't illnesses, then you're just too ignorant to debate in the first place.

Tyler77 wrote:

twistednerve wrote:Now if you wanna say bipolar, schizophrenia, borderline personality disoder and severe OCD aren't illnesses, then you're just too ignorant to debate in the first place.

This. As someone who suffers from a disorder that is classified by many as both bipolar and schizophrenia, I can say, for a fact, that it's real.

twistednerve wrote:That subject has been debated to no end. And yes, even moderate depression only happen in genetically susceptible people.

Link, Study, article or explanation? Last I heard its never been fully proven mental disorders are of genetic origin. Fragile X and downs have been successfully proven to have a genetic root, but for years researchers have been heavily studying Bipolar, Schizophrenia and the like with no breakthrough. To this day zero solid evidence exits that these disorders are purely genetic or to what degree. No 'schizophrenic gene' has ever been found, and experts don't even know how to classify it schizophrenia ("as neruodevelopmental... or neurodegenrative")

Even NAMI isn't sure: http://www.nami.org/Content/NavigationM ... Causes.htm


Saying depression happens only is people with a genetic predisposition is leaving at least half the picture out, a eugenicist mentality at most. If a person has lost many loved ones or been through war with them developing depression do we then say this person is depressed because of defective genetics? Do we then say these people are defective? Do we then reach the conclusion those with a genetic predisposition to full blown psychopathy have an advantage? Do we then medicate those having any forum of empathy while we make sure psychopathic personalities produce more offspring? How is die hard psychopathy beneficial to the race? Survival also involves the ability to care and have a wide range emotions, does it not? So in reality the brains ability to be depressed does good?

Genetics in themselves are far from understood, and pinning illness like depression on them is of no help.



Only thing you can rule out as illness is PTSD and anxiety related stuff. Even then, it can be considered an illness because of the harm it does, independent from the psychological cause or event being far away in the past.

And Dissociative disorders, RAD, among several others if you wanted to call mental disorders caused by any environmental factors none illnesses. DDs, DID/MPD, RAD, PTSD ect has been shown to be near 100% environmental.

Your brain is injured and keeps injuring itself. Doesn't that sound like an illness?

The debilitating effects of these disorders does make them an illness and are technically classified as such, but its working with the patient, strong empathy that moves them toward healing. Granted the more server the trauma and the more repetitive and the earlier it occurred the more work needs to be done. But these illnesses are a normal reaction to trauma.

Now if you wanna say bipolar, schizophrenia, borderline personality disoder and severe OCD aren't illnesses, then you're just too ignorant to debate in the first place.

I wouldn't go as far as calling people ignorant. Everyone has their own opinion, and, its still on the table as to what causes them. Even the mechanisms of action are unknown. Yes, I agree with you that the most serve cases of these disorders are profoundly debilitating. But everyone is entitled to an opinion.


Sorry if I sounded arrogant, but you do a diservice to the mentally ill thinking you can socially "heal" a mental illness. As if talking and making a person feel accepted or validated is a solution to depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, etc..

You are doing a disservice to the mentally ill. For starters mental illness is highly stigmatized, teaching social acceptance is in their favor. Id see no benefit in continuing the highly stigmatized world they live in. Second, if your referring to the fact empathy cant help in therapy you are giving the mentally ill a second blow. Im curious as how you think we should treat those in need of help. Should we Bully them then?


Freud made that mistake and took thousands along in this ridicule, son. Only to engage mentaly ill people into false hope and useless and dangerous "therapies".

I fail to see how Freud ridiculed people. Or gave them false hope. Freud dedicated his life to helping the mentally ill and revolutionized psychotherapy. Before his time the mentally ill were condemned to prisons, tortured, executed and everything in between. He was able to come up with a way to help these people in human ways that often worked. Did he cure every single person? Certainly not, but he saved countless people from far worse. And there are some that did actually get better. Yes I get the fact he tried cocaine on his patients and so fourth, but at that time nobody knew it was dangerous. And compared to the rest of medicine that was child's play.

And how is sitting on a comfy couch dangerous? The doctors who created lobotomies, torture machines and holding pens for the ill are the one who created real dangerous false treatment. Not Freud, he actually was trying to eliminate that. Those who actually discarded Freud's work in the 30, 40, 50, 60s and 70s were the ones who perpetrated the most heinous treatments.

If we really wanted to argue this; doctors who did the greatest harm are those who created the chemical imbalance theories followed by various barbaric methods to treat it like lobotomies and ECT. Its theses doctors who for decades gave rise to the notion mentally ill are defective, genetically inferior, born flawed. They cant be fixed but we the experts can 'mange' them. Institution turned to profit centers. At one point in history eugenics went as far as sterilizing them. Even those that could be helped, say those suffering PTSD, were misdiagnosed, drugged and left with no hope. Everything was an inborn chemical imbalance that couldn't be cured but somehow managed via expensive treatment. These doctors further did harm stigmatizing mental illness giving the public a wrong impression. Crazy nut cases unaware they are sick needing to be spoken to like young kids to continue taking their prescribed meds.

Ok I get Freud's theories have never been fully proven, but neither has the biological theory of mental illness. And for that matter I dont ever recall Freud advocating sterilization or lobotomies.


What I think the OP is referring to is the Trauma model of mental disorders. The core of the theory being those exposed to traumatic or painful experiences will develop mal adaptive behaviors or DSM illnesses. Not everyone is mentally ill because of a horrible past, but some indeed are. To say either group is the other is highly counter conducive to their treatment. Everyone's different. This is why medicine is now using a biopsychosocial model in modern etiology. Many different factors come together to play a role in mental illness, trauma and genetics being only 2 out of many factors. Everything the OP mentions can certainly be caused by a cruel less than supportive environment. Look at the News, you see horrible events all the time. I think what yourthoughtcriminal was trying to say that a normal response to trauma isn't that the person is defective rather in need of support.




Don't do that. Don't be that dumb.

twistednerve wrote:

Tyler77 wrote:

twistednerve wrote:Now if you wanna say bipolar, schizophrenia, borderline personality disoder and severe OCD aren't illnesses, then you're just too ignorant to debate in the first place.

This. As someone who suffers from a disorder that is classified by many as both bipolar and schizophrenia, I can say, for a fact, that it's real.

Mental disorders are either illnesses or injuries.
No other way to put it, biologically.

Even personality disorders are illnesses, and not "bad development".

Using phyisical analogies:

Bipolar = asthma. Comes and goes, to ups and downs. Sometimes it's not manifested.
PTSD = severed member. the person will always have this pain and this huge part of itself that doesn't work as it should.
Borderline Personality Disorder = dwarfism. The person is globally deformed and twisted. Not on the body, but behavior, thoughts and emotions. It is perfectly capable, to a degree, but nothing can make this person different.

Almost Imo. I agree disorders tend to have either an environmental cause (psychological trauma, exposure to neuro toxins ect) or biological (cognitive deficits via genetics) But there are also "created" disorders. One is ADHD. Im not challenging its existence rather its diagnosis. ADHD is woefully over diagnosed. Years ago it was never diagnosed to the degree it is today. So, if a kid with normal emotional arousal is diagnosed with ADHD because big pharma has influenced the psychiatrist's education because its profitable to them is the kid still ill? Are dated schools with 40 kids per class room with no physical stimulation, sugary cereals and over worked teachers the problem or is the kid really ill? Genetics predisposes children to hyper activity for learning/ survival reasons. Its this the kept them alive for millennia. These same kids 40 years ago were the same, and the vast majority of them latter became hard working adults part of the most powerful nation on earth with no issue. Now, school systems change, and big pharma found a new market for pills since inpatient is no longer fashionable as it once was. Suddenly, with that in mind its no longer a clear line whether they are indeed ill or not.

twistednerve wrote:I have what can be labeled nowadays as C-PTSD.
A horrible past causing real illnesses. I now have anxiety, depression, memory issues, chronic stress. And the flashbacks. Not to mention other "physical" stuff.

But I would classify that as being an "injury" in the first place.

Besides that, I was always anxious. Born anxious. Maybe I wouldn't be so traumatized if I hadn't a predisposition for it in the first place, who knows? Part of anxiety's symptomathology is to hold to negative/harmful circumstances longer and with more intensity. Part of the being vigilant thing.

There are several studies about specific genes and combinations of genes being linked to schizophrenia, depression and bipolar disorder. Several studies about pre-natal hormonal abnormalities being linked to mental illnesses.

Ever seen studies on the size or response rate of the amygdalas of mice prone to anxiety? A not overly anxious mouse would have an adequate sized amydagla, and one that does not respond so much so often to stimuli. These are pretty popular. You can search those and find many, very fast.
It's like being prone to hearing deficits because you have large ears in a noisy world. Funny stuff.

You can google all these. Pardon me, I'm too lazy to go study searching at the moment.

And I didn't critisize his approach for making the mentally ill better accepted. I'm just saying empathy doesn't heal. Empathy is nice, of course. And avoiding stress, even of the social kind, it's also great. But if anything there should be a defense to classify mental illness as such.
I'm a C-PTSD sufferer, and I think this empathy thing doesn't move me towards anything of actual substance when it comes to feeling better. The lack of empathy caused C-PTSD, but it's now an injury and an adaptation as physical as the fingers that are typing this right now. Being nice to me is nice, being bad to me is bad. C-PTSD is there regardless and the only thing that helped it were medications.

And using a ficticious example of how it is a disservice to say mental illness aren't illnesses:

Right now out there there's a guy named Bob. Bob is terribly depressed. He has trouble waking up in the morning, he suffers from severe muscle ache all over the place. His gastritis is so bad he sometimes coughs blood. He is losing his cognitive capacities and his job performance is taking a dive. Soon, his boss will have a legimate reason to fire him. Ironically, Bob's depression isn't treated as a real illness by the company where he works or his health insurance, so he can't take permission to be absent while he treats himself. And without his job, he has to pay for his medication price fully, which he can't do, and there are no alternatives to this specific guy - and the tried them all.

So yes, treat mental illness as real illness. Not doing so is a disservice in the real world, trust me.

Now that Bob is a homeless man, you can use empathy to help him feel better momentarily, but he is still mentally ill and the stress from living in the streets and going through so much lack of empathy caused his depression to evolve into bipolar disorder with psychotic features - these things tend to go on a domino effect, specially untreated and with further stress.

My point: Mental illnesses ARE illnesses. Empathy doesn't HEAL, but lack of empathy can cause stress and stress DAMAGES.

So sorry if I seemed rude, the OP was in the best of his intentions but ignorance is just as dangerous.

Almost Imo. I agree disorders tend to have either an environmental cause (psychological trauma, exposure to neuro toxins ect) or biological (cognitive deficits via genetics) But there are also "created" disorders. One is ADHD. Im not challenging its existence rather its diagnosis. ADHD is woefully over diagnosed. Years ago it was never diagnosed to the degree it is today. So, if a kid with normal emotional arousal is diagnosed with ADHD because big pharma has influenced the psychiatrist's education because its profitable to them is the kid still ill? Are dated schools with 40 kids per class room with no physical stimulation, sugary cereals and over worked teachers the problem or is the kid really ill? Genetics predisposes children to hyper activity for learning/ survival reasons. Its this the kept them alive for millennia. These same kids 40 years ago were the same, and the vast majority of them latter became hard working adults part of the most powerful nation on earth with no issue. Now, school systems change, and big pharma found a new market for pills since inpatient is no longer fashionable as it once was. Suddenly, with that in mind its no longer a clear line whether they are indeed ill or not.

I really think *real* ADD/ADHD are quite rare. Most of the times, the kids and adults being treated by it just are being sub par on their academic or job performance - and their parents or themselves want a boost.
A lot of times, nowadays, kids and adults with bipolar disorder are being diagnosed ADD. Hypomania or mixed states are practically the same as ADD. Ever noticed how ADD kids are usually prone to incredibly hyperactive behavior, and then some "down" time? Speically when anger preceded. That's bipolar.
But genetically, ADD, depression and bipolar are linked. Google that too, if you will.

But it's all guessing, really. No physical test to rule out BP or ADD.
If parents feel his kid need their medication, and see improvement, great. Trusting 100% on any psychiatrist or physician in general is sadly common, but ignorant. Physicians are advisors, specially on the real of psychiatry - where we just have symptom control and diagnosis are hypothesis used to orient treatment.

However, I would rather use other medications besides stimulants. Or supplements before medications.
Stimulants are dangerous.