Analogy between psychiatry and other things

Cheze2 wrote:Feeling like you are forcing yourself upon someone by approaching them and saying hello, or starting a conversation is your issue, not theirs. What are you supposed to do? Go up to someone.

Then how come everyone was approaching me when I first came to campus? IF ONLY I were to respond properly BACK THEN, I would have been able to have plenty of friends without EVER having to approach anyone! The entire reason I have to approach people is that they spread bad reputation about me due to what was done in the past.

And here is another analogy with psychiatry. Suppose a scientist complaints that due to meds they can't be productive in their work any more. Then you will respond to them that yes they can, they can just push themselves harder. Well, that might be true, but the point is that without meds they won't have to push themselves at all. So meds made it more difficult, not impossible, but more difficult. And in the same way bad reputation made it more difficult for me to approach people as well.

By the way there were other times when I was a lot more naïve. LIke if you were to ask me this question back in 2002, when I also made bad reputation, I would have said that well due to MY Asperger I have trouble knowing how to start or continue conversation. But then I realized: if I go somewhere where people like me, I don't seem to have that trouble at all. So other people have a way of "tricking me" into having trouble. Yet they will never say "we don't want to talk to you" instead they would cause ME to be unable to talk to them! They will PRODUCE a disaibility on my end and yet have me think its my own disability.

And that is EXACTLY what psychiatrists are doing with their medications as well! They don't restraint the patient or anything; they will just inject a med that would make patient disabled, and then patient can go and think its their own disability while in fact its the medications.

Cheze2 wrote:You can't expect people to come to you and then be upset when they don't know your inner desires because you haven't done/said anything that will give them that hint.

I have. For example, I contacted people on facebook making such complaints on numerous occasions.

Cheze2 wrote:Yes, people remember what it is that you desired. Isolation. They are giving that to you.

In this case, why are they telling everyone else that I want isolation? If I truly want it, I should be able to speak to myself. So why go behind my back to tell everyone else how antisocial I am before I EVER have a chance to interact with them? I mean lets put it this way: how many people did I act antisocial towards? Maybe 10 or 20. How many people are on campus? Probably around 200. So how come NONE of those 200 talk to me? Because the 10 or 20 people spread bad rumors about me.

Cheze2 wrote:Until you tell/show them that you do not want this anymore, why should they suddenly know that your attitude, which is an inner feeling, has changed?

Well there were times when I ATTEMPTED to interact with them and they shut me down. Here are few examples:

1. A year ago we went to the bus tour. Now, in the bus, one guy started asking me physics questions. Since I was answering in a lowd voice, they were then telling everyone how I kept the entire bus awake. Now, there were two problems with this:

a) I wasn't going to talk about physics -- in fact I was quietly reading for half an hour -- its the other guy who started asking me questions. So I had to answer

b) Long before I started talking about physics, there were people in the back seat who were laughing (I don't know what they were laughing about as they spoke in Hindi). So how come no one said how THEY kept the bus awake? Why is it only ME who was blamed for it???

Now after that tour I asked that question to one of the other students. And he told me that the reason they did that to me is that I never interacted with them before so they didn't think I would come; and, therefore, they didn't find me suitable, and that's why they made fun of me. Well, he said it as if its a normal thing, without even noticing the following problems with what he said:

c) They didn't know I would come. Well, here I am, I came. So that should prove them wrong. So how come they "didn't find me suitable?" (his words, not mine). Is he saying that it is "not suitable" for me to come and not come at the same time? Well I didn't "not come", I "came"!!! So what else is the problem?

d) If they didn't find me "suitable" (again, his word) what they should have told me is "please go home". But what is the point of making fun of me instead? Its like they are trying to manipulate the situation. By MAKING ME talk about physics, they would be able to spread bad rumors about me that would isolate me, THATS their goal. And that is similar to psychiatry: instead of simply telling patients not to do X, they just put patients on meds that would "force" them not to do X.

2. Half a year ago, in the office, there was a student whose computer did something weird. I don't remember what it was, but all I remember is people were laughing about it in Hindi. Now, despite the fact that I don't know Hindi, I could sort of guess what it was about by looking at the situation. But still, I wanted to participate. So the obvious way to include myself was to ask them to translate it into English. First, they didn't understand that simple request; they acted as if I was asking something crazy. Then when I repeated it two or three times finally they heard me and then they translated it in a form of 3 word sentence spoken very reluctantly. Well they were laughing with each other for entire 10 minutes, so why did I got to hear only 3 words? Then when I got really frustrated I cussed at them and at that point they simply all left the office.

3. Whenever I was going to the computer room and I was having questions the two girls at front were always looking scared and oftentimes directed me to ask these questions to the male person working there instead. Now I am not aggressive never have been, so what are they so scared of?

4. On facebook someone was making some kind of joke. I don't remember a content of that joke any more. What I do remember, though, is that I found it relevant to mention how I get frustrated when I have bird sounding alarm waking me up really early each morning and how I keep telling myself these are just birds and I don't have to respond. Now, one thing I mentioned in that post is that the reason I need to wake so early is that I talk to my GIRLFRIEND who is in a different time zone so her evening is my early morning. Now, few minutes later that post was deleted and then I found that the person on whose wall I posted it unfriended me. Now what was so wrong with that post? The only thing I can think of is that my mention that I have a girlfriend challenges the commonly accepted view that I am social outcast. Perhaps she even decided I made that girlfriend up and that she doesn't exist -- well my girlfriend DOES exist and she is quite a good catch -- but I guess that girl on facebook wasn't buying it, or why else would she unfriend me?

Cheze2 wrote:

katana wrote:typically most people working in a psychiatric environment also have a need to distance the "patients" from themselves... wonder why - likely to do with the things they do to them and the way they treat them in general (as people with no rights who can be ordered around and treated as if they are misbehaving children.)

Are you saying that boundaries should not exist in the mental health field? If there were no boundaries, then what would stop a therapist from having sex with the person they are working with? How would this effect the therapeutic work being done? I don't believe it is necessarily to order people around that they distance themselves, though I know for some people this may be the case.

PLEASE NOTE: the quote regarding "psychiatrists distancing from patients" was due to Katana and NOT due to me. I never complained about this specific issue for the very same reasons you stated. And, by the way, professors are not allowed to befriend their students either in order to keep things professional, and I don't find anything wrong with that either.

Now, the reason one can MISTAKE IT as if I said the above is that I brought up "STUDENTS distancing themselves" and "PSYCHIATRISTS using meds" and then attempted to draw an analogy between the two. But I think you misunderstood the kind of analogy I was trying to make. In particular, the analogy had nothing to do with "both groups being distant". Instead, it had to do with "both groups inflicting DAMAGE". In case of students, they inflict damage on my social standing through spreading rumors. In case of psychiatrists they inflict damage on one's intellectual capacity by giving meds that damage the brain. In other words, "psychiatrists, meds, brain damage" is analogous to "students, rumors, ostracism". So, "ostracism" part applies only to students and NOT to psychiatrists. BUT the analogy holds: "students deliberately create rumors in order to produce ostracism" similarly to "psychiatrists deliberately using meds in order to produce brain damage"; and the philosophy of people who inflict relevant damages are similar as well: the victim is worthless so nothing wrong with damaging them (whether the damage be social ostracism or biological changes in the brain).

Cheze2 wrote:

causalset wrote:people with Down's are mentally retarded.

This phrase is no longer acceptable in the developmental disability community and is quite off color. Please refrain from using the phrase mentally retarded in the future. The correct term is that they experience an intellectual disability. Also, it is no longer acceptable to use the term "Down's" just as it is not acceptable to use the phrase "schizophrenic" any longer as these are not person centered terms.

As far as I know, Downs is an official term. And "mentally retarded" is also official term; the latter can be found in DSM 4. But then again, as far as I am concerned it doesn't matter what terminology to use as long as I convey the message. So I am more than happy to accommodate to your preferences regarding terminology and avoid using the above terms if that's what you want.

Cheze2 wrote:

causalset wrote:But if you take the STATISTICS, such as Asperger's/Down's one I just cited, you will KNOW that they lie

Could you show me a link to actual statistics of this? Stating your own opinion and calling them actual statistics and using that as an argument for people lying is not quite factual. I would also like to pose the question about pay in employment between these two groups.

I read it 2 years ago so I don't remember exactly where I read it. But I found the part about Asperger's having very low chance of getting a job: http://www.help4aspergers.com/pb/wp_446 ... 44162.html This link didn't explicitly mention Downs but it DID mention that the rate of unemployment among Asperger population was much higher than other disabilities.

Cheze2 wrote:If your opinion is true that people with down syndrome are more apt to become employed, I would then wonder if people diagnosed with down syndrome would not be paid as much as people diagnosed with Asperger's. I would then wonder how those two would even out in the long run.

Then the question is: what if a person with Asperger is very desperate to get a job and will ask for lower pay, why wouldn't they give it to him? In my case I have, in fact, been asking for lower pay, and the answer I was getting was that it is not allowed: either they pay me the same as the rest of ppl or they don't hire me at all. Now if it is not allowed in Asperger case I imagine it won't be allowed in Down's case either.

All social situations are different and have diff dynamics so its hard to tell you what u may or may not have done. People are hard sometimes, its hard sometimes to start friendships or to start being a social person when you've been anti social before, sometinmes ppl and groups will still wonder about you, some of them will make comments about you because they are either bored, have nothing beter to say/are assholes/or are genuinely wondering what you are like. If I were you, I wouldn't think so much about all these ppls responses to you, and just try and get a few friends who you really like, if ppl talk about you then f*ck them, theyre gone, if you find real friends, they wouldn't do things like spread rumours about you etc. I wouldn't worry so much about it, just try and go out of your way to talk and initiate social contact with ppl you think u want to be friends with, and don't give up if something goes wrong. keep trying until u find some good ones.

yes, I agree, psychiatry injects u with drugs then gives u a disability, its too f*cked for words atm.

Devilock wrote:All social situations are different and have diff dynamics so its hard to tell you what u may or may not have done. People are hard sometimes, its hard sometimes to start friendships or to start being a social person when you've been anti social before, sometinmes ppl and groups will still wonder about you, some of them will make comments about you because they are either bored, have nothing beter to say/are assholes/or are genuinely wondering what you are like. If I were you, I wouldn't think so much about all these ppls responses to you, and just try and get a few friends who you really like, if ppl talk about you then f*ck them, theyre gone, if you find real friends, they wouldn't do things like spread rumours about you etc. I wouldn't worry so much about it, just try and go out of your way to talk and initiate social contact with ppl you think u want to be friends with, and don't give up if something goes wrong. keep trying until u find some good ones.

yes, I agree, psychiatry injects u with drugs then gives u a disability, its too f*cked for words atm.

Then how about those who actually advise me not to socialize with OTHERS. I can even think of a couple of people who told me that socializing with THEM is ok but I shouldn't socialize with anyone else. So that shows that its not about things going badly between me and those people but rather its about these people evaluating how things go between me and EVERYONE ELSE and deciding I can't possibly find someone with whom my interaction can go ok.