The truth about pharma-psych is getting out I think

Copy_Cat wrote:

beneficii wrote:And what about the people getting help or need that help?

They need "informed consent to treatment".

Like everyone else, I would much prefer non-drug to drug treatments. But we're still waiting for psychology to come up with the blockbuster talking treatment that will match meds for bipolar.

Until then, meds are the best bet for many of us. Lithium in particular does actually save lives.

I totally agree with the principle of _informed_ consent. To me, that means anti-psych also needs to be careful not to misinform people, particularly about drugs like lithium which have proven effectiveness at reducing suicide.

In that light, Copy Cat, would you consider leaving out the lithium paragraph the next time you use the form?

Thanks,

Charter.

charter wrote:drugs like lithium which have proven effectiveness at reducing suicide.

Where is the proof of this suicide prevention effect ?

The selling of bipolar disorder stresses that the disorder takes a fearsome toll of suicides... Yet, the best available evidence shows that unmedicated patients with bipolar disorder do not have a higher risk of suicide.

Storosum and colleagues analyzed all placebo-controlled, double-blind, randomized trials of mood stabilizers for the prevention of manic/depressive episode that were part of a registration dossier submitted to the regulatory authority of the Netherlands, the Medicines Evaluation Board, between 1997 and 2003 [28]. They found four such prophylaxis trials. They compared suicide risk in patients on placebo compared with patients on active medication. Two suicides (493/100,000 person- years of exposure) and eight suicide attempts (1,969/100,000 person-years of exposure) occurred in the group given an active drug (943 patients), but no suicides and two suicide attempts (1,467/100,000 person-years of exposure) occurred in the placebo group (418 patients). Based on these absolute numbers from these four trials, I have calculated (see Figure S1 showing calculation, and see Figure 2) that active agents are most likely to be associated with a 2.22 times greater risk of suicidal acts than placebo (95% CI 0.5, 10.00).

source: http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pmed.0030185

Sorry but that suicide prevention thing was used to justify the dirty mistreatment and coercive drugging I endured inpatient, I'm going to have to challenge it.

Study after study has shown a reduction in suicide risk with lithium:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/262606.php

beneficii wrote:Study after study has shown a reduction in suicide risk with lithium:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/262606.php

I found it http://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f3646

Im not so sure about those numbers , and the study states:

The main limitation of the review is the quantity of the primary evidence. The sample size of most included studies (29 out of 48, 60%) was fewer than 100 participants, with overall few suicide and deliberate self harm events. The low event rate may reflect the fact that usually people judged to be at high risk of suicide are not normally recruited into randomised trials. There was therefore substantial random error and consequent unstable estimates of treatment effect with wide confidence intervals.

I am more interested in psychiatric abuse prevention cause psychiatric mistreatment and abuse can surely cause suicidal thinking and actions.

Copy_Cat wrote:Sorry but that suicide prevention thing was used to justify the dirty mistreatment and coercive drugging I endured inpatient, I'm going to have to challenge it.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12720484

Lithium does save lives.

Seriously, it does. All I'm asking you to do is to drop a paragraph which includes misinformation about a drug that demonstrably saves lives.

my problem with litium is its near toxic level for it to be supposedly therapeutically effective my levels went down somewhat when ever I actually took it...

I am taking shankhpushpi a herb I am working on getting good supplier of bulk amounts as it definately has mood enhanvcing effect and has even made me complacent with treatment to the point that uusually they make me feel suicidal or recent lerraing in spiritual visions associated to opening up again and some cannabis use, read the kybalion which had an influence....but hthis herb should be famous for its affects on someone using antipsychotic, like it really potects the brain from harmfull chmeical interferance intelligently..again good supplier is a must for this $#%^ personally anyway..

I'd buy shankhapushpi over litium helps suicidal people to balance and spiritually awaken their minds with light of spirtual advancemnet and satifying aour karmic needs in getting over the $#%^ in life...for me the $#%^ in life is psychiatry and its actually ###$ my life up and I could prove it given the adequate respect to hear me out by jury's of metnal health reveiw boards that dont really listen to $#%^ on me standing up ofor myself in drug affected communications and abilty for memory to remember even what its all about and prove that I no longer have a problem especially with herbal medicine.

got some $#%^ stuff from ebay don[;t recommend it if first trying ayurvedic medicine is probably worth spending more and whatever is available..the herb is not endangered but not all that potpular. or having trouble getting it with different spellings. different variety too but I trust they are equivalent in vital properties and affect on cognition enhancing affects..

lithium huh? that seems to do pretty minimal in comparison, I never really undertood any of the mood $#%^ since I am actually quite stable even though schizoaffective is possible diagnosis..how a bout schizotyape who just hates psychiatry and behabves very badly in its abnormal confessional type atmosphree...and I think they were actually inspired in creating atmosphree for confessions. this puts me in a bad mood...lithium would only be dulling...I don;t take it like I am supposed to but now I am coming clean I have found herbs usefull...even though I got $#%^ stuff at the moment from ebay...

like I am restless socially and attention deficited to being really bored by people and trying to find it interesting gets me restless..am talking about mntal health fellowshi- ikind of social support group but its really not that interesting I just go....then strange get to gether for dinner with freinds but hardly want ot be around anyone and rather get stoned by myself and by myslef write $#%^ on the internet..pardon me this is long...dunno whenther anyone reads these.

@Copy_Cat

Regarding the BMJ meta-analyis you quote above: like all good science, it recognises the limitations of its analysis. Quoting the limitations doesn't undermine the evidence of the article, which strongly supports lithium as reducing suicide.

At the moment I'm seeing numerous studies, including the 2013 meta-analysis in the British Medical Journal, which conclude that lithium reduces the risk of suicide, versus a single paragraph (without any numbers) in an "informed" consent piece, first written in 1991.

Dropping the paragraph doesn't hurt your campaign against psychiatric abuse.

I have been informed that if I am prescribed lithium, I do not have a “lack” of lithium in my body, nor can such a “lack” be demonstrated by any existing test. I understand that the blood tests that I will undergo regularly will be for the sole purpose of determining just how much lithium has been introduced into my bloodstream and whether this could produce toxic symptoms, since, as a result of the mental dullness that lithium is expected to produce, I will be in no position to recognize some of these toxic symptoms.

Whats wrong with informing patients ?

It was at an unused kitchen in Bundoora , John Cade conducted crude experiments which led to the discovery of lithium as a treatment of bipolar disorder. These experiments mostly consisted of injecting urine from manicpatients into the abdomen of guinea pigs. Then, in an effort to increase the water solubility of uric acid, lithium urate was added to the solution. Cade found that in the guinea pigs injected with the lithium urate solution, toxicity of the urine was greatly reduced. However, his use of careful controls in his experiments revealed that the lithium ion had a sedating effect by itself. To his amazement, the guinea pigs became lethargic and unresponsive for several hours after receiving lithium...

This effect of lithium has nothing to do with anyone having a "lithium deficiency" a common lie used to coerce patient compliance to a dangerous treatment many don't like for many many reasons.

Suicide may be reduced in people who are "lethargic and unresponsive" by a few percentage points but so what ?

Does lowering suicide risk half a percent justify lying or trashing someone's human rights ?

@Copy_Cat

I recognise your passion against coercive psychiatry. In the human rights thread you said you just want to get "better treatment" for everyone.

Better treatment for everyone sounds good to me too.

That's why I think it's wrong to misinform people about a treatment that is proven to reduce suicide risk.

Your argument that lithium makes people "lethargic and unresponsive" is misinformation.

Lithium's effect of reducing suicide risk is absolutely _not_ due to making humans lethargic and unresponsive. That's just not true.

Again, I recognise your passion against coercive psychiatry.

But I don't see how misinformation about the effects of meds that are proven to save lives serves the cause.

charter wrote: would you consider leaving out the lithium paragraph the next time you use the form?

But its needed to combat the lithium "lithium deficiency" lie.


I agree that "lethargic and unresponsive" may be a bad description of lithium's effect on cognition since it was an observation of its effects on a lab animal not a human.

How would users describe it ?

Why is there a problem with compliance if the effects are pleasant ?