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Question about psychotic experiences in stpd

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Question about psychotic experiences in stpd

Postby M00nShad0W » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:35 pm

Hi there!

I have read contradictory things about psychosis and schizotypal pd. Some say psychosis is typical for schizophrenia but not for schizotypal pd, but I also read elsewhere that quasi psychotic episodes or shorter lasting psychotic episodes are possible with schizotypal pd.

So I thought, let's just ask in here. Did any of you who were diagnosed with schizotypal pd also experience altered states of consciousness resembling or identical to what psychiatrists would consider a psychosis? Was it ever diagnosed as such? And how many of you have had a diagnosed psychotic episode but do not need medication continually to keep yourself more or less "anchored" in consensus reality?

The reason I ask is because I was diagnosed with psychotic disorder nos and autism (which symptoms mixed together could look a lot like schizotypal imho). I have a lot of symptoms which overlap, and some fit more into schizotypal and some fit more into autism. But I wasn't diagnosed (yet) with schizotypal which, to me, is kinda odd. So I am curious if the fact they diagnosed a psychotic episode some years ago is some kind of reason to not diagnose schizotypal pd, or if they are just being lazy :mrgreen:

Also, could very well be I have several things. I recognize a lot in DID/OSDD too. Just trying to fit the puzzle pieces together...

Feel free to share any insights on your own experience of these things like overlaps in symptoms and entering altered states of consciousness (dissociation, fantasy, autohypnosis, psychosis, trance)
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Re: Question about psychotic experiences in stpd

Postby 1PolarBear » Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:44 pm

M00nShad0W wrote:I have read contradictory things about psychosis and schizotypal pd. Some say psychosis is typical for schizophrenia but not for schizotypal pd, but I also read elsewhere that quasi psychotic episodes or shorter lasting psychotic episodes are possible with schizotypal pd.


It's simply that in theory, it is a personality disorder, hence not a psychotic one. It does not mean you can't get any, and in fact, it is theorized again, that there would be a propensity, but if you had an acute psychosis, you would not get diagnosed with it, you'd have to show the symptoms outside of it and for a long time since adulthood probably to qualify. And yes, quasi psychotic would be typical so it's a matter of degree.

M00nShad0W wrote:So I thought, let's just ask in here. Did any of you who were diagnosed with schizotypal pd also experience altered states of consciousness resembling or identical to what psychiatrists would consider a psychosis? Was it ever diagnosed as such? And how many of you have had a diagnosed psychotic episode but do not need medication continually to keep yourself more or less "anchored" in consensus reality?


I had three, but no, it was never diagnosed but I know now, after the fact. There might only one that lasted long enough to qualify for a diagnosis, which is three months. The other two were not lasting long enough. It's not what I mean by quasi though. Those quasi ones are part of common life. No need for medication, just avoid excitation states.

M00nShad0W wrote:The reason I ask is because I was diagnosed with psychotic disorder nos and autism (which symptoms mixed together could look a lot like schizotypal imho). I have a lot of symptoms which overlap, and some fit more into schizotypal and some fit more into autism. But I wasn't diagnosed (yet) with schizotypal which, to me, is kinda odd. So I am curious if the fact they diagnosed a psychotic episode some years ago is some kind of reason to not diagnose schizotypal pd, or if they are just being lazy :mrgreen:


It's more the fact that you were diagnosed with autism, imo. The two are so similar, there is no need for both. I think they exclude each others as well. So if most of your symptoms fit into one, there is no need for the other. It's not even clear if there is a difference between the two. You can look at pathological demand avoidance. It's kind of the in-between the two I think. It's kind of atypical autism which would be even closer to Stpd than the normal one.
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Re: Question about psychotic experiences in stpd

Postby M00nShad0W » Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:55 pm

Hi! And thx :D

Makes sense, if they are so similar it isn't really useful to diagnose both.

I am however also struggling with the etiology of autism vs stpd, I believe that emotional neglect and traumatic experiences had their influence on me. Personality disorders do not rule out the effects of nurture and trauma. Autism however does, they are quite adamant about inadequate parenting or trauma not having anything to do with it. Which to me is frustrating :|

The second psychotic episode I had was diagnosed (first one wasn't). I'm pretty sure it didn't last 3 months though. My mom brought me to crisis center because I was stressed out (some stuff I was experiencing was rather terrifying) and they gave me meds so I guess that is why I got the diagnosis, they needed the code for the treatment.

I have the occassional synchroncities, symbols I see around me which are meaningful to me, I'm interested in the occult and I certainly have some peculiar or controversial convictions :mrgreen: which I usually don't share since I don't like conflicts and I've been bullied for a long time, learned to hide and pretend to be normal, superficially. It's tiresome and lonely though. Intimacy is a huge problem for me. Maybe I'll make another post on that later...
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Re: Question about psychotic experiences in stpd

Postby 1PolarBear » Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:38 am

M00nShad0W wrote:I am however also struggling with the etiology of autism vs stpd, I believe that emotional neglect and traumatic experiences had their influence on me. Personality disorders do not rule out the effects of nurture and trauma. Autism however does, they are quite adamant about inadequate parenting or trauma not having anything to do with it. Which to me is frustrating :|


Right. Not only PD does not rule them out, it's pretty much the cause, although some, like schizotypal are or were believed to have genetic components. That one and schizoid which were separated at some point a bit arbitrarily, came from observation of children with schizophrenia. But the diagnosis itself does not, so you get a contradiction.

Autism has a genetic component that is primary, although we don't really know what it is, a heightened sensibility overall seems at play. The social component may or may not come from adaptation to this, but you will always not be sure. It's pretty much accepted that nurture would be problematic because of forcing people in a normal world, so trauma is inevitable, but is not necessarily the deeper cause. Bad environment would make things worst. So it depends how you look at it. Lots of people will say "it" has nothing to do with it, which is ultimately maybe true at least for the main symptoms. It does not mean an individual cannot worsen a few things here and there, or learn pathological behaviors because of it. All people learn the same ultimately, and they have to react and protect themselves a bit the same too, but there will be particularities if your nervous system is different which needs to be recognized.

I don't think people should get bogged down on diagnosis anyway, it's not like there was recipes for success after that. Each problem needs to be tackled individually and they are different for everybody, even if they may look similar. Those diagnosis are too low resolution to be useful and that is why they will soon disappear.

M00nShad0W wrote:The second psychotic episode I had was diagnosed (first one wasn't). I'm pretty sure it didn't last 3 months though. My mom brought me to crisis center because I was stressed out (some stuff I was experiencing was rather terrifying) and they gave me meds so I guess that is why I got the diagnosis, they needed the code for the treatment.


Yes, I messed up on this. I thought about it later. It's schizophrenia that needs three months, not accute psychosis. That is purely qualitative. It can last a day or a few days, or more. And yes, they needed the code for the treatment.

M00nShad0W wrote:I have the occassional synchroncities, symbols I see around me which are meaningful to me, I'm interested in the occult and I certainly have some peculiar or controversial convictions :mrgreen: which I usually don't share since I don't like conflicts and I've been bullied for a long time, learned to hide and pretend to be normal, superficially. It's tiresome and lonely though. Intimacy is a huge problem for me. Maybe I'll make another post on that later...


You can, but the four horsemen got through this forum and the elect were snatched up in heavens, so you might not get any answer. Only the damned are still here. :lol:
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Re: Question about psychotic experiences in stpd

Postby M00nShad0W » Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:33 pm

Aha, thx!

There has also been research indicating neglect and abuse cause physical changes in the child's brain, so neurological difference need not be genetic. And there is some research on generational imprint (epigenetics) influencing how the brain develops, so trauma could even be passed down through "genetic memory" of some sort.

Then subsequent trauma only makes things worse, certainly not making life easier. The bullying left some scars too (or wounds that just won't heal completely and get torn open again occasionally).

I don't think people should get bogged down on diagnosis anyway, it's not like there was recipes for success after that. Each problem needs to be tackled individually and they are different for everybody, even if they may look similar. 


Agree. I actually made an image of burning the DSM when I was in one of my subversive moods 8)


You can, but the four horsemen got through this forum and the elect were snatched up in heavens, so you might not get any answer. Only the damned are still here. 


:P
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Re: Question about psychotic experiences in stpd

Postby 1PolarBear » Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:57 am

M00nShad0W wrote:There has also been research indicating neglect and abuse cause physical changes in the child's brain, so neurological difference need not be genetic.


It's like saying water is wet.
There is still a difference between a desert and the Amazonian forest.
They aren't the type of differences I was talking about anyway. A few neurons connected differently don't make a big difference, but if the composition of the neurons is different, then you are in a totally different climate. So I am saying the wiring is different, like the actual composition of the wiring, not what its connection. 5G networks are different than 4G. Connecting 4G differently does not make it 5G and never will. Even if they connect the same, they will act differently.

M00nShad0W wrote: And there is some research on generational imprint (epigenetics) influencing how the brain develops, so trauma could even be passed down through "genetic memory" of some sort.


I am not too much of a fan of developmental psychology, it's pseudo-science at this point.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/10/heal ... genes.html
It used to be called "vitalism", and was quite popular around the beginning of the 20th century, and then it was derided in the Cold War, because it was what the USSR believed, then it made a comeback lately.
They need to come up with a mechanism to be seriously considered.

But even if what you claim was true, you would have a chicken and egg problem inside a family, because it's also possible that family is genetically predisposed to abuse their children, so those children of victims might be the next abuser. :lol:
Just because they are babies does not mean they aren't plotting some things. :roll:
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Re: Question about psychotic experiences in stpd

Postby M00nShad0W » Sat Sep 18, 2021 4:39 pm

Water is wet only when you feel it. When you look at it it's not. I think wet is a sensation not an inherent property? Philosophical question this. Fluidity I think is the property?

Anywayz, back on topic... 8)

I'm not sure it is just a matter of a couple of neurons being differently connected. Ofcourse, it might depend on many other factors as well and the type of neglect and/or abuse plus protective factors. See for example https://www.pnas.org/content/109/9/E563 about possible changes in parts of the brain.

It is kinda frightening that something your own parents or caregivers might have done or not done properly could have such enormous impact. On the other hand, if they wouldn't have "made" me I wouldn't even exist! Now THAT is mind boggling. To be or not to be. The power of parents is one of existence or non existence for the child.

As for epigenetics I'm also not convinced :mrgreen: I cannot read the article however, unless I pay. If possible to copy paste or just the part where they list their objection and alternative explanation. I'm curious what their thoughts are on it.

I don't think I was abused by my parents. I think it was neglect or simply an inability to provide the necessary emotional attention, support, safety etc (long story short, mental illness and drug addiction, it was unintentional, but not harmless). I am not hateful. Sad or angry occassionally, lonely and frustrated too. But I don't hate my parents, I love them.

When it comes to the bullies, society, humanity in general however, still plotting my revenge :evil: ah, well... occasionally :wink: Actually, I used to be pretty fanatic with genetics theory in the past. Neurodiversity and evolution and stuff. I was a huge fan of Magneto at the time ha
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Re: Question about psychotic experiences in stpd

Postby 1PolarBear » Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:50 pm

M00nShad0W wrote:Water is wet only when you feel it. When you look at it it's not. I think wet is a sensation not an inherent property? Philosophical question this. Fluidity I think is the property?


Wet is a property. :lol:
All properties come from sensations.
If a house is green, green is a property. Of course, it is dependent on you seeing it in the right conditions. It's still a property.
It does not matter though, everybody that would sense water would know it is wet. Just the same, anybody that uses it's brain will have changes in it, so unless you are dead, your brain is changing. I doubt you need a study on that.

M00nShad0W wrote:I'm not sure it is just a matter of a couple of neurons being differently connected. Ofcourse, it might depend on many other factors as well and the type of neglect and/or abuse plus protective factors. See for example https://www.pnas.org/content/109/9/E563 about possible changes in parts of the brain.


They are neurons changing connections, or disappearing, not sure. I know it's reversible though. Once the stressors are gone, the size comes back to normal eventually. But that's not the changes I was talking about. When I say neurological differences, it's not what I mean. It's like psychopaths not using their frontal cortex in some situations, it's not what I am talking about. Those are things that are learned in the environment and they can be reversed usually. They aren't causal, they come together with the symptoms, because they are the symptoms, just in the brain.

M00nShad0W wrote:As for epigenetics I'm also not convinced :mrgreen: I cannot read the article however, unless I pay. If possible to copy paste or just the part where they list their objection and alternative explanation. I'm curious what their thoughts are on it.


This one is just as good, perhaps better.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2019 ... pigenetics
The mouse experiment is interesting, but it's quite specific to one trigger. So you have to be cautious, it would not create what they call a personality disorder, which are pervasive and quite general.
The problem is that people will want to explain everything with this. :lol:
There seems to be contention at any rate. One study shows it works, but in theory it shouldn't, or it would be quite rare.
It's quite likely to happen though, especially for food, we see it in animals. Bears know instinctively what food is good and not, no need for training. The training is to get the goods, not about what is good or not.
It's not likely to cause those difference in the hippocampus volumes and all those other things.
Plus it's not strictly genetic and can be reversed quite easily.

M00nShad0W wrote:I don't think I was abused by my parents. I think it was neglect or simply an inability to provide the necessary emotional attention, support, safety etc (long story short, mental illness and drug addiction, it was unintentional, but not harmless). I am not hateful. Sad or angry occassionally, lonely and frustrated too. But I don't hate my parents, I love them.


Neglect can be just as bad. It's harder to fix something you lack, than to reject something you have. So short term it's better, but not long term.

M00nShad0W wrote:When it comes to the bullies, society, humanity in general however, still plotting my revenge :evil: ah, well... occasionally :wink: Actually, I used to be pretty fanatic with genetics theory in the past. Neurodiversity and evolution and stuff. I was a huge fan of Magneto at the time ha


Everybody has their pet projects. 8)
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Re: Question about psychotic experiences in stpd

Postby M00nShad0W » Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:02 pm

Thx, yeah, doesn't explain personalities no. But it's interesting for sure.

And you're so right about emotional neglect, also it can be hard to realize what exactly happened since it is not the stuff I remember like a specific traumatic event.

Back to the original reason I started this thread, I got confirmed by my psych nurse that I seem to have characteristics of both autism and schizotypal. Not that it's an official diagnosis now, but at least I got it confirmed :mrgreen:
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