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Maladaptive Daydreaming vs. Schizoid Thought Life

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Maladaptive Daydreaming vs. Schizoid Thought Life

Postby DaturaInnoxia » Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:02 am

There is talk of "Schizoid Thinking / Withdrawal / Fantasy," and then there's talk of "Maladaptive Daydreaming"

I'm wondering how people differentiate between the two, and whether dissociation fits into the Schizoid one all.
They collect information to stock pile in their souls, saying, "I will tuck this into my subconscious for later use."  ~ unknown
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Re: Maladaptive Daydreaming vs. Schizoid Thought Life

Postby smirks » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:03 pm

I think there is probably considerable overlap.

Maladaptive daydreaming occurs when daydreaming prevents one from focusing on daily tasks, when your control over when and where you daydream is not absolute.

Schizoids can have elaborate fantasy worlds, certainly, but there is probably some variation in ability to control when and where we slip into them. Speaking for myself, I limit my indulgence to before bed and on weekends.
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Re: Maladaptive Daydreaming vs. Schizoid Thought Life

Postby 1PolarBear » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:46 pm

DaturaInnoxia wrote:There is talk of "Schizoid Thinking / Withdrawal / Fantasy," and then there's talk of "Maladaptive Daydreaming"

I'm wondering how people differentiate between the two, and whether dissociation fits into the Schizoid one all.


Its quite different. Schizoid thinking is like autistic thinking, and it used to be called this way. Its essentially creating your own world and live in it, irrelevant of what others might do or want. Its like a competitive narrative that may mesh in strange ways with the common narrative. That's why it can show as odd beliefs, or a thinning of two worlds, walking in two worlds, etc. It depends on who describes it.

Daydreaming is the act of being distracted by interior narrative or emotions, so there is a cut between the two, they don't overlap like in the first type. Its the difference between dream walking and dreaming. In the first, it is one act, in the second, it is two acts.

Dissociation is the base of the idea of schizoid, but it is not proven to be there like it is in schizophrenia. But it was assumed to be the cause at some point in the past.
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Re: Maladaptive Daydreaming vs. Schizoid Thought Life

Postby DaturaInnoxia » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:30 pm

smirks wrote:Maladaptive daydreaming ... prevents one from focusing on daily tasks, when your control over when and where you daydream is not absolute.

Schizoids can have elaborate fantasy worlds, ... ability to control when and where we slip into them. ... I limit my indulgence to ...


I do both. Not all the time and not always at the same phase in my life. Sometimes I don't go into it for months at a time.
To repeat myself, both can lay risk to psychosis if stay too long, but I believe I'm beginning to be able to take it and apply it as an effective coping mechanism. Sort of - almost.

1PolarBear wrote:Its essentially creating your own world and live in it, irrelevant of what others might do or want.


So are you saying you think it's a choice?
That a schizoid straight out chooses to neglect others in favor of their own world?
Or would this be along the lines of "autistic thinking"?

1PolarBear wrote:Its like a competitive narrative that may mesh in strange ways with the common narrative. ... a thinning of two worlds, walking in two worlds...

Daydreaming is the act of being distracted by interior narrative or emotions, ... they don't overlap like in the first type. Its the difference between dream walking and dreaming. In the first, it is one act, in the second, it is two acts.


By your definition, mine is just maladaptive daydreaming.

Magical thinking is separate to the fantasy world, and the fantasy world doesn't confuse my perception of reality, but sometimes I can't come back from "dreaming". That's probably the dissociation though.

__________

This is weird to think about. I never knew it was a thing. I tried mentioning things like this to a shrink when I was younger, but felt embarrassed and changed the subject. I find it more uncomfortable than talking about psychosis. I felt like they looked at me funnier too.
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Re: Maladaptive Daydreaming vs. Schizoid Thought Life

Postby Cholls » Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:08 am

1PolarBear wrote:
DaturaInnoxia wrote:There is talk of "Schizoid Thinking / Withdrawal / Fantasy," and then there's talk of "Maladaptive Daydreaming"

I'm wondering how people differentiate between the two, and whether dissociation fits into the Schizoid one all.


Its quite different. Schizoid thinking is like autistic thinking, and it used to be called this way. Its essentially creating your own world and live in it, irrelevant of what others might do or want. Its like a competitive narrative that may mesh in strange ways with the common narrative. That's why it can show as odd beliefs, or a thinning of two worlds, walking in two worlds, etc. It depends on who describes it.

Daydreaming is the act of being distracted by interior narrative or emotions, so there is a cut between the two, they don't overlap like in the first type. Its the difference between dream walking and dreaming. In the first, it is one act, in the second, it is two acts.

Dissociation is the base of the idea of schizoid, but it is not proven to be there like it is in schizophrenia. But it was assumed to be the cause at some point in the past.

How might the underlined, bold text relate to the more common occurrence of cognitive dissonance?
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Re: Maladaptive Daydreaming vs. Schizoid Thought Life

Postby 1PolarBear » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:40 am

DaturaInnoxia wrote:
1PolarBear wrote:Its essentially creating your own world and live in it, irrelevant of what others might do or want.


So are you saying you think it's a choice?
That a schizoid straight out chooses to neglect others in favor of their own world?
Or would this be along the lines of "autistic thinking"?


Yeah, that's not exactly what I meant. It happens naturally, but with some self-awareness and experience it can be done voluntarily as well. Just like some people are able to control their dreams if they put their mind to it. Most don't, and it is not always possible to tell the difference.

Neglecting others, yes, it can be a solution and can be done voluntarily, or it can be done as a necessity, or simply because it is easier, than to do the parsing.

I see it as the difference between a fresh meal and a frozen ready to eat meal. The fresh one is more genuine and true, but may not be digestible for other people. The frozen meal is digestible, but is somewhat fake, it lacks nutrients, and take energy to do. It takes efforts, and you need to also know the need of others, their own prejudice and micro-wave appliances.

Its more of a communication issue with possible lack of empathy that makes things worst or impossible to manage. Autistic thinking right now, is seen more as a basic response. Like eye contact, or simply ignoring calls, but if you go further up in the complexity, there are subtleties in speech as well that can appear, even if the other things are done right. Inappropriate responses is all a normal person would see, and they would assume it is voluntary, but it is not always the case. It is more likely it is not the case and the person simply tries to be honest.

DaturaInnoxia wrote:Magical thinking is separate to the fantasy world, and the fantasy world doesn't confuse my perception of reality, but sometimes I can't come back from "dreaming". That's probably the dissociation though.


Magical thinking is about believing you can affect things at a distance. Let's say you have a thought, and you believe it affected people somehow. It can get scary, which is why some people wear aluminium hats, to stop the mind reading or thought projection. But it can be in other ways, like moving people in a movie, or weather affecting this or that, or the stars moving people.

It can scare someone from interacting, because what you say, moves people through magic, which is a scary responsibility. It can be paralyzing, and of course you can't tell people.

DaturaInnoxia wrote:This is weird to think about. I never knew it was a thing. I tried mentioning things like this to a shrink when I was younger, but felt embarrassed and changed the subject. I find it more uncomfortable than talking about psychosis. I felt like they looked at me funnier too.


Lots of them probably don't know it is a thing either. :?
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Re: Maladaptive Daydreaming vs. Schizoid Thought Life

Postby 1PolarBear » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:53 am

Cholls wrote:How might the underlined, bold text relate to the more common occurrence of cognitive dissonance?


Cognitive dissonance are logical mistakes done to reconcile two incompatible realities.

What I am talking about is something that is not contradictory, it is like parallel. It is a different interpretation, viewed with very personal lens. It is like talking words but meaning emotions, but the emotion is not clear, so it is approximated in a metaphor. The thing is that emotions are not little boxes that can easily be parsed and offered frozen into words, and that is without taking into account that some may be inappropriate.

So in order to not loose data through compression, metaphors can be used to keep the raw emotions intact, and all the meaningful relationships that go with it intact. Putting it into words is like doing it violence and destroying it. But then once that is done, you become fake, because it is not true anymore, the emotions is gone, it was destroyed by the word. The word also freezes it in time, so it becomes eternal, and that emotion you had in the long past, can be put into the memory of others, that won't forget it, and will make you remember for all eternity, and if it was a bad emotion, or one that is embarrassing, well then, you are in for a life time of shame and hurt. So by making it more flexible and more unreal, it protects, and can more easily be adapted, and people won't totally understand it, which is a plus.

So yeah, it is moving in the grey, while cognitive dissonance is about keeping black and white, and trying to justify both at the same time. The former is truer before judgement. The latter is basically a lie after judgement. The latter deals with frozen food, the former is living food. Its very different, but I can see why you made the connection.
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Re: Maladaptive Daydreaming vs. Schizoid Thought Life

Postby DaturaInnoxia » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:36 pm

I understood magical thinking to be more than that, so I looked around and am annoyed by the inconsistency.

Now, I'm assuming that even though odd beliefs and magical thinking are in one criteria, they are separate?

The APA's Dictionary definition (as do other sources) describes it the way you did:

"Magical Thinking
the belief that events or the behavior of others can be influenced by one’s thoughts, wishes, or rituals."

The APA's DSM 5:

"2. Odd beliefs or magical thinking that influences behavior and is inconsistent with subcultural norms (e.g., superstitiousness, belief in clairvoyance, telepathy, or
“sixth sense”: in children and adolescents, bizarre fantasies or preoccupations)."

I realize I emeshed the concept of "Magical Thinking" and "Odd Beliefs" together with "Ideas of Reference"

1PolarBear wrote:Neglecting others, yes, it can be a solution and can be done voluntarily, or it can be done as a necessity, or simply because it is easier, than to do the parsing.


I neglect most people even if I like them because the interactions are a lot of work with very little payoff; it's draining.

The drain will cause me to not want to make eye contact or have flat affect and avoid phone calls or social situations, etc.
Sometimes I try to interact so I don't totally lose the relation, but they usually take offense (or we drift apart) at my avoidance or my inability to stir up enthusiasm or genuine interest.
I wonder how many people have done this to me as well.

If I believe something to be purposeful or meaningful, I can turn it all around and become everything I'm normally not - as long as I don't feel trapped.

It's not very common for me to meet anyone who brings me enough pleasure to make me want to interact regularly with.

I lack a certain level of emotional intelligence; however, I've been learning the last while that my empathy is still disturbingly intact - at least in regards to some populations.
It must have just gone into a coma for half a decade or so, but is still alive.

1PolarBear wrote:I see it as the difference between a fresh meal and a frozen ready to eat meal. The fresh one is more genuine and true, but may not be digestible for other people. The frozen meal is digestible, but is somewhat fake, it lacks nutrients, and take energy to do. It takes efforts, and you need to also know the need of others, their own prejudice and micro-wave appliances.


I'm understanding the meal analogy to mean that sometimes it's about convenience rather than quality.

For me, it's the opposite (I think).
If my environment doesn't trigger the mood/emotions I need, I go off into my own world to find them. Sometimes it serves as a "jump start" if I'm hitting a depression.
More like treating a nutrient deficiency.

1PolarBear wrote:Magical thinking is about believing you can affect things at a distance. Let's say you have a thought, and you believe it affected people somehow. It can get scary, which is why some people wear aluminium hats, to stop the mind reading or thought projection. But it can be in other ways, like moving people in a movie, or weather affecting this or that, or the stars moving people.

It can scare someone from interacting, because what you say, moves people through magic, which is a scary responsibility. It can be paralyzing, and of course you can't tell people


Sounds bad. I don't have this.
I experience the odd beliefs (and now learning not magical thinking very often). I'm also not a stranger to ideas of reference.
I found that some of the most problematic symptoms I've experienced were full fledged delusions. Largely, because you can't hide them.
They were harder to handle than visual "perceptual disturbances"

I've decided, when at all possible, it's best to avoid picking up diagnoses (and the resulting prescriptions) - and, instead, manage my symptoms on my own (or my psychologist assisting with coping skills).
They collect information to stock pile in their souls, saying, "I will tuck this into my subconscious for later use."  ~ unknown
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Re: Maladaptive Daydreaming vs. Schizoid Thought Life

Postby 1PolarBear » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:33 pm

DaturaInnoxia wrote:I understood magical thinking to be more than that, so I looked around and am annoyed by the inconsistency.

Now, I'm assuming that even though odd beliefs and magical thinking are in one criteria, they are separate?

The APA's Dictionary definition (as do other sources) describes it the way you did:

"Magical Thinking
the belief that events or the behavior of others can be influenced by one’s thoughts, wishes, or rituals."

The APA's DSM 5:

"2. Odd beliefs or magical thinking that influences behavior and is inconsistent with subcultural norms (e.g., superstitiousness, belief in clairvoyance, telepathy, or
“sixth sense”: in children and adolescents, bizarre fantasies or preoccupations)."


They correlate. You could say magical thinking is an odd belief, but not all odd beliefs are magical thinking. I think the DSM is putting too much emphasis on "belief". Plenty of people believe in those things, but they are able to compartmentalize, so it does not affect them in every day life. My opinion is that those things are actually more born out of experience and inappropriate interpretation, more than some sort of act of faith as their definition might suggest.

DaturaInnoxia wrote:I realize I emeshed the concept of "Magical Thinking" and "Odd Beliefs" together with
"Ideas of Reference"


Ideas of reference is to intercept general broadcasts and think they are meant for you personally, or see signs and commands in the general environment where there is none. It could be seen as odd beliefs as well to some degree.

DaturaInnoxia wrote:
1PolarBear wrote:I see it as the difference between a fresh meal and a frozen ready to eat meal. The fresh one is more genuine and true, but may not be digestible for other people. The frozen meal is digestible, but is somewhat fake, it lacks nutrients, and take energy to do. It takes efforts, and you need to also know the need of others, their own prejudice and micro-wave appliances.


I'm understanding the meal analogy to mean that sometimes it's about convenience rather than quality.


More about choosing to be understood or not. Be true to yourself and not be understood, or be understood and having to lie by cutting corners. Also being understood traps you. So when you say above you can be good socially until you feel trapped, its part of the problem. If you go for emotional connection, you trap yourself, and deny yourself at the same time, so it cannot last. And the other option does not bring anything of lasting value to interactions.

DaturaInnoxia wrote:For me, it's the opposite (I think).
If my environment doesn't trigger the mood/emotions I need, I go off into my own world to find them. Sometimes it serves as a "jump start" if I'm hitting a depression.
More like treating a nutrient deficiency.


It sounds the same to me. :)

DaturaInnoxia wrote:I've decided, when at all possible, it's best to avoid picking up diagnoses (and the resulting prescriptions) - and, instead, manage my symptoms on my own (or my psychologist assisting with coping skills).


I would agree with that.

ps: ada had a blog on the internet about daydreaming which was good. Maybe you can try to look it up.
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Re: Maladaptive Daydreaming vs. Schizoid Thought Life

Postby poxalis » Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:35 pm

i honestly don't know much about the terms but my last therapist described me as dissociative when i explained spending my time in fantasy worlds most days. so yeah, according to her I have a dissociative disorder. i wonder how that compares to maladaptive daydreaming/schizoid thought life.
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