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lying in friendship

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lying in friendship

Postby birdbirdbird » Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:11 am

another thing i wondered if other people have-
i feel like friendship is meaningless when friends are allowed to lie
so if my friend doesnt want to hang out he can just lie that he's busy,
i think that either you're my friend and you're not allowed to lie (i wont too), or you're not my friend and you can lie, i dont care for the reason, once lying is allowed then there is nothing binding me to be nice anymore, friendship became a game that you can do whatever you want, am i going to doubt every word you ever say?
what i do in this kind of "friendships" is i dont give a ###$ anymore, i want something i dont ask i take, i dont like something i hit, there's no reason to be nice when you can't tell if anything is real, so ###$ it nothing matters, there are no rules anymore everything is allowed.

same goes to therapy, therapist is allowed to lie then there are no rules, im second guessing myself - will i be able to find a rare therapist that doesnt lie? mine lies, or hide the truth with nice decoration which i also don't appriciate, when i ask her about things where im dependent on her she always has a long unimportant pile of words to say, i expect a yes or no but instead i get bulshit, i dont really care why the answer is no, unless it's some special case where it was completely out of her hands, something that she could do nothing about,
she claims that she cares about me but i'm waiting to see a psychiatrist for some time now, it's not her that needs disability, it's me, so why do i need lying therapist/friends, i have no idea how people can get along when everybody's lying to each other
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Re: lying in friendship

Postby poxalis » Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:37 pm

i don't really give a $#%^ about lying. it's not something i think about. especially with "friends". i much prefer us both spinning lies to just make things easier on each other. the only time it matters is when i'm in an honest relationship, keeping myself honest, and some #####& comes rolling up with straight lies to my face when i demand the truth. their glossy wall eyes swiveling around. thinking i'm just so stupid and naive i'd be incapable of simple thought. it's not about the lie. it's about mutual respect.

i don't always find an honest relationship easy. actually almost all of them were based on lies because normal people demand things i can't give. shove their pretty fantasies down my throat until i gag and recoil. that's when it all breaks down and the lie starts. all i want is company. which seems impossible for others to accept. they want promises about some future. they want meaningless whispered phrases. it's the same with friends. they all want more from me. they want me to convert to their religion. they want scheduled conversations so we "don't lose touch". they want emotional support! i've had friends turn on me simply because i moved away. i've had friends shoving their tongue down my throat when i'm too drunk to move. like they just can't help themselves.

from their eyes though, i'm sure i look twisted. they put faith in me when they shouldn't. they think things mean something when they mean nothing to me. and really, i'm not so good i guess. lies make everything clear. make us both understand we aren't close.

anyway, i think you need to get over it. people always lie. expect it from the start. parents, siblings, friends, therapists. it's not particularly a bad thing unless you trust them to do something. like keeping secrets, or just things you don't want others to hear. they will share it. maybe not immediately, but they are just waiting for the opportunity to use it. they will always hoard what you say and barf it back up.
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Re: lying in friendship

Postby Cholls » Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:57 pm

poxalis wrote:... it's not about the lie. it's about mutual respect.

Bingo.

poxalis wrote:i don't always find an honest relationship easy. actually almost all of them were based on lies because normal people demand things i can't give. shove their pretty fantasies down my throat until i gag and recoil. that's when it all breaks down and the lie starts. all i want is company. which seems impossible for others to accept. they want promises about some future. they want meaningless whispered phrases. it's the same with friends. they all want more from me. they want me to convert to their religion. they want scheduled conversations so we "don't lose touch". they want emotional support! i've had friends turn on me simply because i moved away. i've had friends shoving their tongue down my throat when i'm too drunk to move. like they just can't help themselves.

from their eyes though, i'm sure i look twisted. they put faith in me when they shouldn't. they think things mean something when they mean nothing to me. and really, i'm not so good i guess. lies make everything clear. make us both understand we aren't close.

anyway, i think you need to get over it. people always lie. expect it from the start. parents, siblings, friends, therapists. it's not particularly a bad thing unless you trust them to do something. like keeping secrets, or just things you don't want others to hear. they will share it. maybe not immediately, but they are just waiting for the opportunity to use it. they will always hoard what you say and barf it back up.

Powerful.

Thank you for the reminders!

I think many neurotypical relationships come with expectations of increasing closeness. Not only are such expectations unrealistic, they're obscene. Gorging and destruction instead of moderation.
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Re: lying in friendship

Postby poxalis » Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:29 pm

Cholls wrote:I think many neurotypical relationships come with expectations of increasing closeness. Not only are such expectations unrealistic, they're obscene. Gorging and destruction instead of moderation.

yeah, and yet we are always the one's that are messed up. i have the same issue with christians. they want you to respect their beliefs to the point of feeling horrible for not joining when they ask. yet if i were to talk about my beliefs they'd probably call me names and tell me i'm going to burn in hell. so unbalanced.

i get more frustrated because i try to be polite and it generally bites me in the ass. which means i need to retreat from others more to avoid the situation again. i guess that's fine though. i mean, it's a little infuriating but it's not just others that make me retreat. i had to retreat because i ask too much too. to the point of toxicity. ironic. :)
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Re: lying in friendship

Postby birdbirdbird » Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:04 am

poxalis wrote:i don't really give a $#%^ about lying. it's not something i think about. especially with "friends". i much prefer us both spinning lies to just make things easier on each other. the only time it matters is when i'm in an honest relationship, keeping myself honest, and some #####& comes rolling up with straight lies to my face when i demand the truth. their glossy wall eyes swiveling around. thinking i'm just so stupid and naive i'd be incapable of simple thought. it's not about the lie. it's about mutual respect.


some people demend respect and i never talk to them because i will never respect them so there is no reason to lead people on, this is the kind of honesty im talking about, respect is a form of contract (made up).

personally i will never respect you no matter what happens, you dont deserve anything, if you give you'll recieve, if you dont then you wont, and if one day you give and another day you expect to recieve because of some "repsect" then you're in the wrong place.
this is the opposite of what i was talking about.

to be clear i'm also saying that you can skip my posts from now on, i dont need to talk to you
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Re: lying in friendship

Postby birdbirdbird » Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:01 am

birdbirdbird wrote:
poxalis wrote:i don't really give a $#%^ about lying. it's not something i think about. especially with "friends". i much prefer us both spinning lies to just make things easier on each other. the only time it matters is when i'm in an honest relationship, keeping myself honest, and some #####& comes rolling up with straight lies to my face when i demand the truth. their glossy wall eyes swiveling around. thinking i'm just so stupid and naive i'd be incapable of simple thought. it's not about the lie. it's about mutual respect.


i dislike respect this is the opposite of what i meant
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Re: lying in friendship

Postby poxalis » Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:18 am

birdbirdbird wrote:this is the opposite of what i meant

yes. i think we have opposing opinions on lying.

-- Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:22 pm --

birdbirdbird wrote:
poxalis wrote:i don't really give a $#%^ about lying. it's not something i think about. especially with "friends". i much prefer us both spinning lies to just make things easier on each other. the only time it matters is when i'm in an honest relationship, keeping myself honest, and some #####& comes rolling up with straight lies to my face when i demand the truth. their glossy wall eyes swiveling around. thinking i'm just so stupid and naive i'd be incapable of simple thought. it's not about the lie. it's about mutual respect.


some people demend respect and i never talk to them because i will never respect them so there is no reason to lead people on, this is the kind of honesty im talking about, respect is a form of contract (made up).

personally i will never respect you no matter what happens, you dont deserve anything, if you give you'll recieve, if you dont then you wont, and if one day you give and another day you expect to recieve because of some "repsect" then you're in the wrong place.
this is the opposite of what i was talking about.

to be clear i'm also saying that you can skip my posts from now on, i dont need to talk to you



the only time respect is important to me is in a long term intimate relationship. specifically when you have children with someone and agree to be a "team". there needs to be open communication or it's all pointless. that's the only situation i was referencing. and it was just a side point to the main one. that i don't care about lying.
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Re: lying in friendship

Postby CuteLoneCat » Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:28 pm

When they lie to you, does it feel like they betrayed you?
I remember having that feeling.

But present day lying doesn't bother me that much anymore. Don't know when or how this change happened though, I wasn't aware of it.
I just don't let people come close and with enough distance between us, there is not much they can say that I really care about.

Respect is things like saying thank you.
Like many parents, my parents told me to say thank you (like to the shopkeeper after getting some candy). I never understood backthen why people said this Also for my parents it was very important to say this to strangers, but in our home no one ever said thank you. Saying thank you was something only to keep up appearances. I simply didn't know what respect was bc I had never seen it. So that explains why I didn't understand!

Nowadays I do say thank you, but I really have to remind myself to do it. My "good kid shackles" demand it of me.
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Re: lying in friendship

Postby birdbirdbird » Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:34 pm

nvm
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Re: lying in friendship

Postby CuteLoneCat » Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:38 am

This makes me think of why I like animals, it's because they are honest.

Animal language = real language, TRUE language
(People refer to this as body language)

Verbal language = unreliable, very overvalued language. Can just as easily be used to lie and cheat as to be truthful.

I believe in the goodness of animals
With people however you never know what you gonna get
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