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telling the truth / lying

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telling the truth / lying

Postby birdbirdbird » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:19 pm

personally i dont understand how it can be mixed in the same reality, people lie sometimes, and if society allows lies i dont realise what stops me from lying every time i need to and get whatever i want, but then you lie and people are disappointed, and im like wait, so is lying allowed or not?

for me it feels like words dont matter, people lie anyway so i dont realise why the news for exemple is full of people 'telling their part of the story', why does it matter what they say if they are allowed to lie, i dont watch tv at all nowadays.

as a kid i felt like i HAD to tel the truth no matter how i feel, i was self absobed in my reality so even when kids around me didnt give a ###$ about cheating or lying i never lied, ever in my life untill i was 13~ and i felt like this was the norm, even then i didnt do bad things simply because i thought im not allowed, i didnt realise how other kids do bad things, i guess it has something to do with my dad hinting that he will throw me in the garbage when i did bad things and didn't realise they were bad, i threw rocks at neighbor's dog.

i wonder if anyone had that 'good kid' invisible shackles on him, and i wonder how do you take them off? it seems like there are no real consequences to lying, so i think i will always lie to everyone because why not, i did the mistake of telling the truth to my therapist about some crime but i can still save it because its like im ######6 puting handcuffs on myself, idk why i do it, it's so automatic, im just not allowed to lie
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Re: telling the truth / lying

Postby Manners73 » Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:16 pm

I consider myself to be an honest person but in fact I lie all the time.

I have to sit down and really evaluate myself in order to see that I'm lying because Im not actually aware that I'm doing it.

I've lied all my life. It's a survival thing I think.
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Re: telling the truth / lying

Postby smirks » Wed Dec 25, 2019 4:52 am

I feel like I'm very strict with myself ethically, and I don't enjoy lying, and don't do it often...maybe I don't even do it often enough to mesh with other people socially. I think that a lot of people will lie to save face, but it's very hard for me to care about what I look like to others, or care about pleasing others for my own benefit. I do lie....but I would rather avoid people than end up in a situation where I'm forced to lie.
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Re: telling the truth / lying

Postby Cholls » Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:01 pm

Manners73 wrote:I consider myself to be an honest person but in fact I lie all the time.

I have to sit down and really evaluate myself in order to see that I'm lying because Im not actually aware that I'm doing it.

I've lied all my life. It's a survival thing I think.

Growing up blamed, yelled at, and frequently beaten for any- and everything that went wrong, even distant things that logically had nothing to do with me, has conditioned me into being a lying opportunist. Lying and telling people what I think they want to hear is my default survival setting, even when I'm not under threat.

Because, while growing up, the person closest to me was my worst enemy (all evidence points to this, despite the fact that my brainwashed self still finds it unbelievable), I habitually treat all of society as my enemy, to be deceived and kept at bay.

Yet I am capable of searing, almost suicidal honesty, and am working to remain in that state of awareness as much as possible, but without speaking my mind, because doing so is almost always pointless and only causes pain.

My lying or being honest has everything to do with being aware, which takes conscious effort. So, I think I must look like I'm always in pain, because staying "real" is a struggle, like trying to walk along the bottom of a swimming pool, constantly fighting the tendency to float.
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Re: telling the truth / lying

Postby Manners73 » Wed Dec 25, 2019 10:34 pm

But I'm the first one to call anyone out for lying.

I need to stop doing that.
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Re: telling the truth / lying

Postby CuteLoneCat » Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:10 am

Yes normally I feel obligated to tell the truth even if it might have negative consequences for me.
But there have been a few rare times when lying seemed to happen automatically. Like when I was 11 I stole a cool pen that I had been wanting for a long time from a classmate. I kept bringing it to school (no idea why, it was as if I was convinced I did nothing wrong!) to use it and had absolutely no problem claiming again and again to the boy that my father had bought it and he must have lost his. I cannot understand at all how I did this, it was so obvious I had done it! Normally I would have died of shame! And even if no one had known of my crime, I would still have worried myself sick about it.
(I think maybe not having that pen somehow meant to me, that as a person i was worth so very little , and to emotionally survive this, something else in me took control of me?)
That is the only time I have ever stolen anything in my life.

My mother told me a million times to be good (she simply didn't know any better about raising children, all she knew is that they had to be good). For me this meant: allways do what others expect of you even if it goes against your own needs, under no circumstance cause trouble or bother anyone with any problems you might have yourself. This message was anchored deep in me, I was a very good girl, never bothering anyone.

I knew the rule to be nice to people, but when I heard someone say that you're also supposed to be nice to yourself, I was genuinely surprised. (This was in my late teens I think). The idea of being nice to myself was so alien to me.

So yes I definitely also had and still have those "good kid shackles" on me
I have realised lately that this left me with the following core thought: I don't matter at all in the world, only what others think or need is important.

I guess for freeing oneself you should do opposite of this last thought. Like learning to be nice to yourself, appreciating yourself. Learn what you as a person want and need and act on this to show yourself that you are important.
I'm in the process of learning this myself, it's not easy.

Also think about what you went through in your life but you survived, and not just that, you're even having the will to keep moving forward.
You are strong and resilient (you wouldnt have survived otherwise) and so brave and courageous to keep on going
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Re: telling the truth / lying

Postby birdbirdbird » Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:19 am

CuteLoneCat wrote:Yes normally I feel obligated to tell the truth even if it might have negative consequences for me.
But there have been a few rare times when lying seemed to happen automatically. Like when I was 11 I stole a cool pen that I had been wanting for a long time from a classmate. I kept bringing it to school (no idea why, it was as if I was convinced I did nothing wrong!) to use it and had absolutely no problem claiming again and again to the boy that my father had bought it and he must have lost his. I cannot understand at all how I did this, it was so obvious I had done it! Normally I would have died of shame! And even if no one had known of my crime, I would still have worried myself sick about it.
(I think maybe not having that pen somehow meant to me, that as a person i was worth so very little , and to emotionally survive this, something else in me took control of me?)
That is the only time I have ever stolen anything in my life.

My mother told me a million times to be good (she simply didn't know any better about raising children, all she knew is that they had to be good). For me this meant: allways do what others expect of you even if it goes against your own needs, under no circumstance cause trouble or bother anyone with any problems you might have yourself. This message was anchored deep in me, I was a very good girl, never bothering anyone.

I knew the rule to be nice to people, but when I heard someone say that you're also supposed to be nice to yourself, I was genuinely surprised. (This was in my late teens I think). The idea of being nice to myself was so alien to me.

So yes I definitely also had and still have those "good kid shackles" on me
I have realised lately that this left me with the following core thought: I don't matter at all in the world, only what others think or need is important.

I guess for freeing oneself you should do opposite of this last thought. Like learning to be nice to yourself, appreciating yourself. Learn what you as a person want and need and act on this to show yourself that you are important.
I'm in the process of learning this myself, it's not easy.

Also think about what you went through in your life but you survived, and not just that, you're even having the will to keep moving forward.
You are strong and resilient (you wouldnt have survived otherwise) and so brave and courageous to keep on going


I thought the same thing that being nice to others means leting go of my desires, killing myself for others, i think my definition of good was completely what my father expected, i did "bad things", through rocks at a neighbor's dog, but as long as my father didnt care i didnt care.

Nowadays i try to steal as much as i can, every single time i get surprised when i dont get shamed for that, i try to steal every time i go shopping but always there is something in me that stays, again i dont care about stealing by itself, its that "you have wronged me" that my father engraved in my brain
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Re: telling the truth / lying

Postby Trader Will » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:29 am

I strive to be pleasantly deceptive with others and brutally honest with myself.
Control what you can; Endure what you must.
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Re: telling the truth / lying

Postby Ringil » Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:35 pm

I for 40 years I was proud of hardly doing any lying. Then (because I temporarily had a very social job) I realized that:

- Not lying is childish. Lying is grown-up.
- Lying = good social skills. Not lying = bad social skills.

Axix B types (NPD, HPD etc.) are lying a lot. And manipulating a lot. I thought they are inferior and my way of being 'true' is superior and my progress in mankinds future is just further. But now I learned, Schizoids are playing games as well (e.g. forgetting names, being quiet, having less mimic).

Regarding being good or evil, I thought that I'm mostly good, because in few situations I act for my own needs, usually I work to fullfill other's needs. Now I realized that a society where everyone prioritizes other's needs over the own needs would be less efficient. There is an optimum of selfishness that makes a population most efficient.

So: Being good and true and selfless is just inferior and I was wrong 40 years. I decided to change myself, to become more selfish, to lie more etc. - but that's not easy after 40 years of being a good person. (Background: I was cut into pieces in the shark tank of my last job. And they laughed at me for being a good person, a naive person. So, I don't want to be laughed at, now I will show my bad side and hopefully stop the laughing.)

The hardest thing is, and there I meet the original post: When I decide to lie, why don't I lie always. Or when I decide to stop being a good person, why don't I become a really evil person ? I mean when normal people decide that good is sick and naive and inferior, childish, underdeveloped ... why don't they get really really bad, but only a bit bad (like stealing ideas from their colleagues is ok, but returning a purse they found is ok as well, where the returned purse has little value compared to a stolen idea).

Well, I started reading Machiawelli's texts and secretly envy antisocial people for their freedom. It's however not easy stopping to bee a good person. Every day I catch myself being good, helping people, doing things that are downside for me and a benefit for others etc.

So, don't be a fool, start lying. Humans are evil, being evil is efficient. If you don't lie you don't serve a higher purpose, you probably (a study would be great here) sacrifice efficiency.

Disclaimer: I started an MBA study a few months ago, maybe becoming Machiawellic is normal when people are studying business and are working in business related deparments. So maybe I just change because my job changes, and in that care there would be less relation to the original post, sorry in that case.

Any SPDs also irritated by the lie-not-lie or being good or evil or something in between question ?
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Re: telling the truth / lying

Postby 1PolarBear » Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:42 pm

^
Yes
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