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SPDs in management positions

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Re: SPDs in management positions

Postby Ringil » Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:11 pm

Thanks a lot Cholis for the deep and meaningful information. (What a relief not having to hide my inner complexity. And even to get complexity in return. Usually I strip down my communication to be as shallow as possible for being compatible ...)

The aspect of being bored, ran out of challenges after all these years, is probably very important here for me. Thanks for pointing me on that.

I wouldn't be naive as founder, also thanks for challenging this, important point. I successfully created a startup as employee before ("Intrapreneur") and know all the tools, incl. several ways for validating early business hypothesis by customer research. So no danger here, thanks agin, good point to think about.

When I reflect on your post I feel that I like business-challenges more than coding-challenges. I also have already proven that I can do good business decisions, one of my business models worked out. The thing is, good deciding alone is worth nothing. Business people don‘t take me for serious. I lack the loud way of talking, the "loud" way of sitting/walking/standing, the ignorant way of neglecting failure, I even avoid looking into faces (a bit, not entirely) etc.

I seriously thought about taking actor's lessons. So I can learn how to appear like a manager ... :)

Well, there might one way out: I could start small and make myself independent from venture capital and blown up managers by choosing a niche business model in which mostly the customer satisfaction defines my success. Then I wouldn't need actor's lessons or worry about being rejected and cut off capital supply because of my schizoid nature. Like selling very special electronic devices in low volumes to customers who really love this devices. (Electr. devices is what I know most about). Also this way I can start small, keep my main income stream up and running in parallel, so the family is save.

So this way I would avoid a management position (see thread title ...) and I would still be able to play business challenges.

Thanks a lot again.
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Re: SPDs in management positions

Postby solemnlysworn » Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:31 pm

I've side-stepped around management roles as carefully as I can. As attractive as they can sometimes be, I realise that I am probably not quite as well suited to them as others, despite recommendations to take on this kind of responsibility.

I've found that roles where I have autonomy and control my own workflow have been most fulfilling so far. In sales, I was given autonomy proportional to my performance. In consulting, we're treated as an independent arm of the firm and so generally people don't tend to have a hierarchal way of thinking about us. We're senior and to be respected when we weigh in but, otherwise, it's fairly distant from the main structure.

Once inserted into management, you're instantly wedged between everybody else's needs below and above you and the responsibility that flows each way. I think the biggest turnoff for me is in responsibility. I like that when selling I was a free agent with my own book and business and as a consultant I can do the analysis and make a recommendation and even project manage for a bit but otherwise I'm just an outside pair of eyes that can wander off when I'm satisfied that I've done my bit and move on to something else, allowing the core group to deal with the stuff I cant be arsed with.

I like working in a capacity where my role is not dependent on others to be successful. This I feel is a great source of satisfaction for me, since generally I am tentative in delegating to others where that responsibility given is important towards my outcomes.
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Re: SPDs in management positions

Postby DaturaInnoxia » Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:50 am

When I have to work in a group, I tend to either end up in charge, or I watch the ship sink while getting neurotic about my grade and how my capabilities will look.

Even if it didn't require unnecessary interactions and small talk; the extra stress of having to coordinate people, plan a project while taking everyone into account, making them feel heard, and incorporating their ideas into my preconceived vision of how things should be, makes it all the more unpleasant - and I'm not the "in charge" type unless I have to be anyways

Not only that, but if I'm in a group with say 3 other people; 2 who are happy with 'C' as a grade, 1 who averages 'B' grades and I expect an 'A', then I have to make up for their lack if I want to keep my grade - and I have to trust they'll do their work. I don't see how it's reasonable. Seems punishing to those who want to do well, tbh

Even if it's a level playing field, I don't like not being able to act on my inspirations, and I'm obsessive about certain things, and I like them played out to the end.

What's worse, is when you get a domineering and condescending individual who is 'C' grade or low 'B' and doesn't understand what the task is, and writes you off as stupid and you sit by, watching them make mistakes and suffer for it.

Mind you, I'm thinking I prefer any of those options to being completely incompetent in that type of setting - or being told what to do.
:oops: I really don't do well with being on topic within these threads; 'tis relevant in my mind though
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Re: SPDs in management positions

Postby Ringil » Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:01 pm

Thanks solemnlysworn, nice point of view. I agree that being external staff is quite a nice feeling of freedom :)

Thanks DaturaInnoxia. In my eyes your post is highly related to the topic. Reminds me on an aspect in my last manager role I wasn't aware of. I was highly obsessed to be successful (and success we had), but the majority of the team was lazy. No killer instinct at all, just "I come to office, chat a bit, care most about which floor has the best cappuchino machine ...".

And maybe my obsession for fighting for the success kille me in the end. (Management started to hate me, either because I was successful by doing things differently, this put them in a bad light. Or because I was fighting too strong, smashed too much porcellain, too edgy ...). Now the whole team (that I left) is full of lazy people, traction went below zero, I wonder if they will ever hit break even without me as the motor. Sad to see.

It felt a bit helpless for me to see tasks being done far below what I think the markets would expect, without the possibility to change it (you usually can't change the team and also can't do everything on your own - so I had to accept compromise between my market quality-demand hypothesis and the capabilities of the lazy folks.)

Off topic: I begin having a hypothesis that schizoids might be like on endogene Ritalin from birth (highly concentrated, obsessed, under a glass bowl ...). By the way, as a teenager I accidentially found out that micro-doses of Scopolamine (Datura, like in your forum ID) is a powerul anxiousness-reliever. I wonder if I should write a scientist about it, it might be able to help people.

Thanks all of you for sharing. I hear that we're pretty much result driven. And less human relation driven. Like NPD managers would be maybe (all I know were terrible deciders, complete loosers a to z, but C-Level-management loved theese guys. Can't understand it ... so much waste ... But there must be a reason NPDs are chosen for this positions. Competition is fierce, that cannot be a mistake, NPDs must have some relevant benefit - despite being terrible deciders).
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Re: SPDs in management positions

Postby solemnlysworn » Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:11 pm

Might you generally characterise yourself as an anxious and tightly wound person, RIngil?
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Re: SPDs in management positions

Postby Ringil » Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:49 pm

Thanks for showing interest in me as a person.

Summary, related to your question:

- In a lot of situations (social or economic) LESS anxious. Which gets me into trouble. I don't feel the need to play roles for being socially accepted, so people think I'm "odd". I dare to have my own opinion and psychological adaptions to groups like "group thinking" affect me less.

- But in other situations MORE anxious. Which gets me into trouble as well :) E.g. I'm very sensitive, have a lot of 'emotional' empathy (despite less 'cognitive' empathy), and being auhoritarian or telling people "no" is difficult for me when this'd hurt their feelings. Also competing with less sensitive people (machiawellis, ASDs) is difficult for me. I tend to knuckle down then, and my hypothesis is that this is based on social fear.

Sensitivity: When I see movies tears are running very easy over my face. Even with some cartoons. Everyone's laughing about this :) But I can sleep everywhere, even in a chair when it's loud around me. But generally I'm probably more sensitive. Also I can feel better what's going on in my children than normal fathers.

Tightly wound: I'm not sure. Sometimes my problem is more that I fight back too early and with too much punch. My sense of fairness reacts earlier than usual. So I'm less unfair myself, but over-react quickly when others do things I'd never do.

People sense some kind of weakness in my body language, my way of talking ... I'm not an alpha wolf, and some sense this as weakness and attack me (with success sometimes - taking over my management responsibilities).

Why are you asking ? Maybe that's not the best foundation for a manager, right ?
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Re: SPDs in management positions

Postby solemnlysworn » Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:41 pm

Related more directly to the quoted paragraph:
Off topic: I begin having a hypothesis that schizoids might be like on endogene Ritalin from birth (highly concentrated, obsessed, under a glass bowl ...). By the way, as a teenager I accidentially found out that micro-doses of Scopolamine (Datura, like in your forum ID) is a powerul anxiousness-reliever. I wonder if I should write a scientist about it, it might be able to help people.


Thanks for your reply. It's quite interesting to think about
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Re: SPDs in management positions

Postby Ringil » Fri May 14, 2021 9:52 pm

Hi,

I finally did this management thing. No line management, but being responsible for business outcome and sometimes influencing what people do. Allthough I‘m not good in that particular discipline. I survived in this role and I like that it trains social competence. Here’s what strategies might help and might be related to SP(D):

- Use energy drinks 30 min. before important meetings.
- Meditate to learn being easy about conflicts
- Read about NPD to understand higher managers
- Learn how to fake group-thinking and sunflower behavior. (Copying, or pretending to copy, the oppinion of your boss)
- Managers expect that your actions are 90% egoistic social manipulation of your reputation and that 10% are regarding the actual topics. Try to invest more into social relations and less in work topics. In time and in priority
- Never criticise, unless you really cannot handle an impediment on your own. (Beine responsible means to look brave on the own guilt of the impediment).
- Never criticize stuff that does not affect your goals at all. NPDs fight only for their own favor, your superiors are NPD usually, they would see you as stupid or paranoid as pulling a plot against them
- YOU NEED TO LIE ALL THE TIME and say what’s necessary to manipulate the other person. If you’re telling the actual truth thus has to be a pure coincidence. Otherwise NDP managers think you‘re unprofessional.

And in theory you should build up warm feeling personal relationships to your superiors by mirroring their oppinions and some body language as uf you‘d like those assholes.

It‘s not easy, I‘ll always be an outsider in management. They smell my lack of NPD (or real grand self-esteem, as some are not NPD, but just solid stable self esteem rocks, very impressive once you can see the difference).

More strategies are welcome, if you know some. I‘d really like to be just charming and loughing with the higher managers. Because THAT‘s what they make trust you. And getting trusted is your fuel for survival there. Lying and purposely playing a role helps, but they‘ll allways sense that I‘m different.
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Re: SPDs in management positions

Postby IDeerInHeadlightsI » Fri May 14, 2021 11:01 pm

Sounds like a heavily toxic work environment that you work in.

Each work environment is different. I have a direct approach response with staff. It's very easy and very open both directions. I hate people who lie, I know the truth already and I don't want you to be my buddy. Just do your job.

Your approach wouldn't work with me because if you lie about anything that affects the company I will give you one clear chance and, if you do it again, I will fire you.

However most people work in environments that making a mistake could cost them a job or not being a friend to a superior could affect a promotion, and that is a sad way to work.

Mainly because companies with that work ethic are inefficient and waste my time.
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Re: SPDs in management positions

Postby 1PolarBear » Fri May 14, 2021 11:28 pm

Ringil wrote:More strategies are welcome, if you know some. I‘d really like to be just charming and loughing with the higher managers. Because THAT‘s what they make trust you. And getting trusted is your fuel for survival there. Lying and purposely playing a role helps, but they‘ll allways sense that I‘m different.


You have some good stuff there.
One thing for trust, is to show vulnerability, but not too much obviously.
If they think they have something on you, they are more likely to trust.
You don't want to show too much competence either, it would raise their suspicion and insecurity of course.
You can do the first one by laughing at yourself, so you kill two birds with one stone.
You want to play the dumb guy that does not get it when they say something terrible and horrific, so you can laugh there as well.

I don't know why you would want to live like that, but I've seen it work real well for trust and the laughing thing.
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