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Dr. Stone and The Anatomy of Evil

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Dr. Stone and The Anatomy of Evil

Postby 1PolarBear » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:25 pm

This is to reply to a locked thread.
schizoid-personality/topic213583.html

Number23 wrote:To be more specific, Dr. Stone studied the biographies of serial killers and concluded half were schizoid or loners with mostly schizoid traits.


It just does not seem that way to me from what I saw. Most serial killers are not loners, let alone schizoid. Its even a myth the FBI debunks.

Here is the Mueller Report. :lol:
https://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publ ... ial-murder

Just search "myth" in that document, it is the first one.

Number23 wrote: True, the prototypical schizoid is anhedonic, but I don’t see murder and torture counting as “most activities”.


If it is sexual, and he links his most evil to sexual crimes, I would certainly think sex is a very common "activity". Probably the most common in terms of importance. It certainly is an activity that is taken into the schizoid criteria since it is so central of what psychiatrists consider "healthy". Its part of the questions they ask at any rate. It does not preclude it obviously in specific cases, but here we are dealing with majority. So if the majority of his most evil which he conflates with serial killers are sex motivated, and his majority is also schizoid, then there is some incongruence that needs to be explained, and the validity of considering those special schizoids in the same way a prototypical is. Its certainly an issue, and I find it pretty big.

Also, that serial killers are only motivated by sex is another myth, although I don't think it is what he is saying, but he suggests a strong correlation.

Number23 wrote:The higher a serial killer ranks on the Scale of Evil, the most likely he is to have paraphilias, mainly due to the presence of sexual sadism in the “Most Evil” cases I guess.


Yes, but I don't know what he means by "evil". Is it his personal preference and disgust? or something more objective, like the number of victims, rate of murder of something like that. Of course the most gruesome killings are usually sexual in nature, but not always. If he simply considers paraphilia as evil, then it is only a circular argument.

Number23 wrote:Personality disorders come and go, it doesn’t mean they stop being relevant. If serial murder and torture isn’t enough to warrant the “antisocial” and “sadistic” labels, then nothing is; but instead, lo and behold, it’s the normal people in their every day life that you view as evil… Talk about turning the screw on its head.


It depends on the reason they stop being relevant. If they don't exist, then there is a reason to make them disappear. Sadism has been put inside paraphilias, so it is not seen as a "personality". Serial murder is not enough to warrant an "antisocial" label, there is a need to be a pattern of diversity in crimes, as well as some other criteria. They talk about it in the report. There is certainly a positive correlation, at least when it comes to lack of remorse and some other traits.

I did not say normal people were evil, I said serial killers are usually quite normal and well adapted into their environment, which is why in part they avoid capture. Its also in the report. And yes, normal people are quite able to do evil things, and most evil things are done by normal people for the simple reason that they are in a majority, which is why they are normal. That serial killings are made by monsters is also a myth debunked by the report. Its reality.

Number23 wrote:I don’t know where you saw borderline personality being a lot more co-morbid than schizoid. From my incomplete knowledge, I only know about Russian Andrei Chikatilo, but how much can you trust a Soviet Union diagnosis? Then there’s John Wayne Gacy, who some psychiatrists have diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic, while others as borderline schizophrenic (an old term for BPD and schizotypal) or even schizoaffective, but he may have been borderline. One of these psychiatrist who interviewed him several times said his personality was too complex to be “psychopathic” (read: narcissistic), which could reflect the fragmented self in Borderline Personality Disorder. Gacy himself claimed he had DID, which resemble the rapid mood swings of borderlines and their splitting of identity. Schizoid use splitting just as much, but being introverted, they don’t necessarily externalize it.


Its more of a personal observation, I don't have actual data. I believe Dahmer fits that description. It makes sense for those particular serial killings that are sexual in nature. From personal experience, a lot of people diagnosed with BPD will often have interest in queer sex, and sometimes in the sadism/masochism spectrum. Masochism is fairly common in women with that disorder. The problem is that men are rarely diagnosed with it for some reason, and women don't tend to be serial killers. But the point is that it would make more sense than schizoid.

But overall I believe the most likely to do serial killing is the obsessive-compulsive type, but maybe not the ones with paraphilia. Its almost a constant in all those cases, that they have some sort of urge and fantasies about something and it is the main factor of the drive.

Number23 wrote:If you are so keen on learning, why don’t you do your own research?


I am not the one writing a book and making claims like this. Like I said, he seems to base his book on common myths, and his own observation from afar, so it is simply an opinion, and some of it falls into circular arguments. The only way to know is if he has made some independent research, so clearly from your answer, he didn't made any, which settles the issue as far as I am concerned.

Number23 wrote:Actually, there are psychopathic serial killers who fly under the radar of the psychopathic label, such as Angel of Death types. These cases have highly narcissistic traits but lack the Factor 2 traits of the psychopathy checklist.


Yes, but like you said yourself previously, just the fact of being a serial killer "warrants", in your opinion, the label of antisocial and sadistic, and therefore psychopathy, since it has an antisocial component. So it is quite normal that there would be a correlation, and there is one, which is explained in the report. But again, this is a circular argument, almost true by definition. But yes, even then, some don't make the cutoff for psychopathy which I explained earlier and that you denied.

See, the problem here is simply of prejudice and then circular arguments. That is what I see in this book mainly. Things that are "obvious" to everybody, like all the myths I showed are obvious, and that serial killers would be evil is also obvious, and that they would have some sort of psychiatric disorder is also obvious. All those things are obvious, obviously, but whether they are true is a completely different matter.

From what I do know, it is simply false, and his hierarchy of evil seems arbitrary, but could be justified on some philosophical basis. I just don't see why it would make some serial killers worst than the other on that basis. Its the same crime, only the intent is different, so it is simply a moral judgment with no consequence in reality. I don't see why a killing for a wallet is less evil than one because of a sexual obsession. I doubt anybody would. Its just a separate yuck factor with no connection to the morality of the act.
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Re: Dr. Stone and The Anatomy of Evil

Postby Eldror » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:07 am

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Re: Dr. Stone and The Anatomy of Evil

Postby number230000 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:21 am

Short answer: watch some episodes of Most Evil with Dr. Stone himself.
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Re: Dr. Stone and The Anatomy of Evil

Postby number230000 » Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:39 am

*mod edit*

1PolarBear wrote:It just does not seem that way to me from what I saw. Most serial killers are not loners, let alone schizoid. Its even a myth the FBI debunks.

Note Dr. Stone didn't say the majority were loners, let alone all of them: he said half were. In debunking the myth that all serial killers are loners, the FBI's affirmation that the majority of serial killers are not loners doesn't seem to conflict with Stone's: indeed half is not a majority. But if instead the FBI really meant that loners are less than half, the difference of views could be explained by a difference in degrees: "loners with mostly schizoid traits" versus dysfunctional "reclusive, social misfits who live alone". For instance, Edmund Kemper is a poster child for the sadistic schizoid psychopath serial killer, but he lived with him mom...

If it is sexual, and he links his most evil to sexual crimes, I would certainly think sex is a very common "activity". Probably the most common in terms of importance. It certainly is an activity that is taken into the schizoid criteria since it is so central of what psychiatrists consider "healthy". Its part of the questions they ask at any rate. It does not preclude it obviously in specific cases, but here we are dealing with majority. So if the majority of his most evil which he conflates with serial killers are sex motivated, and his majority is also schizoid, then there is some incongruence that needs to be explained, and the validity of considering those special schizoids in the same way a prototypical is. Its certainly an issue, and I find it pretty big.

We're not talking about sexual activity per se but torture. If you don't know the difference between the two, I wouldn't want to have sex with you. ;-) But if you insist on assimilating torture to sex just because some people are sexually aroused by it, then it would be the most extreme form of sex imaginable; and if a killer needs to torture to really get his rocks off, I think it speaks of a profound inability to feel pleasure, even through sex, which is congruent with the "has little, if any, interest in having sex" criterion. Anyway, you only need to meet four criteria to be properly considered schizoid, let alone a loner, so your point is moot.

Also, that serial killers are only motivated by sex is another myth, although I don't think it is what he is saying, but he suggests a strong correlation.

Correct. Correlation with paraphilias increases as we move up the Scale.

I don't know what he means by "evil". Is it his personal preference and disgust? or something more objective, like the number of victims, rate of murder of something like that. Of course the most gruesome killings are usually sexual in nature, but not always. If he simply considers paraphilia as evil, then it is only a circular argument.

It's all rational. He looks at the crime, but also the perpetrator. In short, the more the killer is rational and free from mental illness and the more the crime is cooly premeditated and involving prolonged torture, the higher a person is ranked on the scale.

Sadism has been put inside paraphilias, so it is not seen as a "personality".

Both exist. You can be sadistic without sexual excitement. Ever heard "sadistic glee"?

Serial murder is not enough to warrant an "antisocial" label, there is a need to be a pattern of diversity in crimes, as well as some other criteria. They talk about it in the report. There is certainly a positive correlation, at least when it comes to lack of remorse and some other traits.

The apparent source of our disagreement and the problem I see with your approach is that you seem to forget that the DSM and the PCL-R are only imperfect tools. Hare himself talks about "white collar/successful" psychopaths. These people wouldn't meet the criteria for psychopathy, or even ASPD, but they are psychopaths nonetheless, like the so-called Angels of Death. Sure, for practical and research purposes it's advantageous to use those diagnostic instruments, but in the present context, clinical judgment has precedence; and since the hallmark of those disorders is callousness, it makes sense that serial murder would be more than enough to warrant the "antisocial" label. I agree there could be some exceptions though: a good prospect is schizoid Denis Nilsen.

That serial killings are made by monsters is also a myth debunked by the report.

It begs the question: are there any monsters at all? But I get what you mean. Yes, some of the highest ranking serial killers were charming and led double lives. The "monsters" are those who are not approachable in conversation and seem to be evil all the time.

I believe Dahmer fits that description [of a Borderline]

LOL, I know Wikipedia believe that too, but Dahmer's name literally appears under the definition of the schizoid serial killer. Perhaps it's possible to be both Schizoid and Borderline.

From personal experience, a lot of people diagnosed with BPD will often have interest in queer sex

It's related to Borderline Personality Organization in general - therefore schizoid - of which polymorphous perverse sexuality is a symptom.
[Dr. Stone] seems to base his book on common myths, and his own observation from afar, so it is simply an opinion, and some of it falls into circular arguments. The only way to know is if he has made some independent research, so clearly from your answer, he didn't made any, which settles the issue as far as I am concerned.

Don't assume my lack of response is proof of anything. As it happens, I just don't know. Imagine that. If you don't bother to do any reading or watch some episodes of Most Evil, don't blame him when you run into misconceptions.

Cordially.
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Re: Dr. Stone and The Anatomy of Evil

Postby number230000 » Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:46 am

Like I said, Dr. Stone doesn't just look at the acts themselves, but also the person, which include their childhood, when usually there are already behavioral problems, a requirement to get an ASPD diagnosis.
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Re: Dr. Stone and The Anatomy of Evil

Postby Cholls » Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:25 am

number230000 wrote:For instance, Edmund Kemper is a poster child for the sadistic schizoid psychopath serial killer, but he lived with him mom...

Minor point. I could be wrong, but my impression of Edmund Kemper is that he wasn't sadistic. He killed first and raped his victims' corpses. He killed his mom first, then decapitated the body. As serial killers go, he seemed pretty considerate.
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Re: Dr. Stone and The Anatomy of Evil

Postby number230000 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:08 am

Cholls wrote:my impression of Edmund Kemper is that he wasn't sadistic.

Well, he got the highest possible rank (22) on Dr. Stone's Scale of Evil, which mean prolonged torture by somebody who is not mentally ill.
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Re: Dr. Stone and The Anatomy of Evil

Postby smirks » Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:59 pm

Sometimes in psychological literature, schizoid is used as a descriptor and not a diagnosis. I find that many times in the literature, schizoid is either used as a descriptor for lack of affect, or for people who do not frequently socialize, regardless of the reason for this lack of socialization.

I think it's less a function of "are you schizoid? well, then you're more likely to be a serial killer" than, "have a messed up childhood? that's likely to impair your ability to relate to other people as an adult -- which could make you look like someone with SPD, which could also lead to sociopathy or psychopathy... and a bunch of other things."
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Re: Dr. Stone and The Anatomy of Evil

Postby number230000 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:16 am

I want to clarify that rank 22 is for torture-murderers. It is a level for those with torture as their primary motive. The motive need not always be sexual.

-- Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:23 am --

I fear that my decision to use ASPD in place of moderate psychopathy wasn't proper enough even though it was pretty accurate. It's true that serial killing in itself is not enough to warrant an official ASPD diagnosis. Like I said myself, the Angels of Death serial killers would only officially qualify for narcissistic and/or histrionic personality disorders even tough they are clinically psychopathic. Likewise, I thought there were also people who didn't meet the DSM criterion for ASPD but who were still inherently antisocial. Only now, in retrospect, I doubt I can take that step. The definition of antisocial is highly tied to deviant behavior, therefore I agree that we should reserve Antisocial personality for people who are actually antisocial in other facets of their lives and who have a sufficient amount of PCL Factor 2. In serial killers where Factor 2 is lacking, we should rather describe them in terms of varying degrees of psychopathy or narcissism, since only these constructs properly capture the callousness of their acts or the motivation behind them. On the other hand, 1PolarBear, your vigorous protestation against assuming a serial killer is antisocial was exaggerated in light of the fact that actually so few of them do not at least meet the antisocial threshold if not full-blown psychopathy.

Speaking of which, the serial killer with the lowest level of psychopathy/narcissism
is Marybeth Tinning. She was placed in category 7: highly narcissistic killers without full-blown psychopathy. She killed several of her children to get attention and sympathy. She had a disorder called Munchausen syndrome by proxy.
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Re: Dr. Stone and The Anatomy of Evil

Postby number230000 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:29 am

But hey, arguing over semantics seems quite pointless to me, and I feel like a dog chasing after its tail. All this spinning was beginning to make my head turn.
smirks wrote:I think it's less a function of "are you schizoid? well, then you're more likely to be a serial killer" than, "have a messed up childhood? that's likely to impair your ability to relate to other people as an adult -- which could make you look like someone with SPD, which could also lead to sociopathy or psychopathy... and a bunch of other things."

Schizoid violent offenders are part of the secondary psychopathy group, and since secondary psychopathy is linked to harsh early environmental influences, you got a point. But regardless of genetics, it's fair to say that most serial killers grew up with bad environmental influences.
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