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Omnipotence and Lying

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Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Postby ladyjello » Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:28 pm

Hi nine
You caught me! Thanks for what you wrote and what you didn't.
Might post a version back up - but thinking about a lot of stuff just now. :?
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Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Postby SpeckledUnicorn » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:01 pm

others might identify with it as well..
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Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Postby MissBizarre » Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:15 am

My narc Mother still pulls out her bible and swears on it that she isn't lying and may God strike her down if she is. It was a favourite pastime as a kid, knowing she was lying, waiting to see if God would strike her down, calling her bluff.

The other experience I've had with narcs lying is that if you are still in the moonlight and roses stage in a relationship with them, they seem to figure it's better to admit part of the truth but when you are of no value to them in the relationship they keep lying even when you produce evidence.
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Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Postby ladyjello » Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:34 am

Ok - my post was basically about applying TheEndUps theories to a particular situation - not a lie - but which could lead to a kind of lying to self. It's long!

I wrote a post about something bad I did.
Then kept editing it
First to include all the details, to made a full confession!
Then got scared how bad it looked and added possible mitigating circumstances.
Then I wrote what I had done to try to make amends.
Then I wrote how bad I felt about it. All the self hate.
Then it was done .
Then I read it again.
Decided to removed anything that might make me or others involved recognisable.
Read it again.
Realised it didn’t make that much difference to the sense of it.
Decided maybe I should remove more. Just leave the very basic facts.
So removed some of the possible mitigating circumstances.
Read it again. It was a bad thing whether it was dressed up in whys and becauses..
I had done something bad and deserve to feel bad.
So removed the rest of the possible mitigating circumstances as I saw that really there was no excuse.
I needed to see that this was a bad thing.
A bad action. No point in hiding from that or trying to explain why.
My guilt/shame/remorse/self-hate had made me hide from examining this issue.
Made me hide from it, or try not to think about it.
Decided to take it out and examine. I kept looking although it was hard to look.
Then I started to feel really bad.
Wondered if it was wrong to now be posting about this in an attempt to deal with it or lessen my bad feeling.
Then I wrote how bad I feel and have felt for some time and deserve to feel bad as a punishment .
Realised I have been feeling bad and punishing myself for ages.
Then thouight maybe I am not too bad a person because I have been punishing myself.
Then thought maybe I deserve to feel bad forever.
Maybe I need to keep the guilt so I will not do this again in the future.
Maybe I don’t deserve to forgive and forget and move on.
Maybe I am a bed person even if I do some good things or try to be nice to people.
I have done bad thing and I am bad inside.
So I should not be posting, trying find a way out of this or get sympathy or feel better.
I have done bad thing and I am bad inside and I deserve to feel like that.
So I should just go back to having my guilty secret and .alternating between thinking about it and feeling bad or avoiding thinking about it or getting into some kind of escapism to get away from it.
Then realised I do something else too.
I try to minimise, justify/rationalise it or make excuses for myself so I can live with it more easily.
So I try to make something bad something less bad or more excusable.
And leads to dishonesty and confusion inside.
Bad leads to more bad.
Makes it more, not less likely I might do it again?
So what should I do?

So what about all this stuff about forgiving yourself and moving on looking at the behaviour being bad but not the person? Could I feel better if I looked at it like that. Think I hear Oprah say something about that in the past and think I saw things like that for a while, but I lost it. Now here is ThisEndUp saying something similar and offering her views like a life raft or something. She seems cool and confident and centred and I want some of that. Maybe I should try it her way. Apply her “philosophy” to this.
Then I thought about what TwistedMister said about how some people in another forum all see themselves as saints and I have wondered to what extent I do that but obviously I’m not and maybe I’m being dishonest with myself and he seems so honest owing his “dark-side”. Seems a plus rather than a minus. But them maybe its easier for a man to be like that? But even so being an honest person who does bad things might be better than being a dishonest person who does good things? But then I’ve got that wrong – you’ve got to look at people and yourself as all good basically – or maybe not judge their basic worth at all – only judge their behaviour.

What if a friend told me they had done this thing? Would I forgive them? What if they had done this to me? Would I forgive them? Would see her as a bad person or as a person who had done a bad thing?
(Being honest, it might kind of depend how much already like or dislike her. Oh no! This is complicating things – I’ll think more about this another time – does whether or not I forgive me depend on if I like myself – and does whether or not I like myself depend on whether I see myself as a good or bad person – oh no brain loop!*).
So for now, assuming I like her, and if she was genuinely sorry, I would forgive her and not see her as a bad person but as a good person who did a bad thing and feels bad about it?
(What if she didn’t feel bad about it? – then you could not forgive her – and she would not be asking for forgiveness?)

So if I now think of myself as a basically good person who did a bad thing, how does that feel?
A bit fake! A bit of a relief! WOW, I’m off the hook!
And for someone who has always teneding to think they are bad and for whoom evey bad act only confirmed theri inner badness and kept the vicios circle going, this is a huge change of perspective!
Must be something wrong with it?
Surely feeling like that would just make me do it again?
I could do something bad now and just immediately forgive myself? Or not even feel bad about it?

No. Value system comes in here. If you choose to do something repeatedly you must either think it is ok or if you think it is bad you will feel bad because you did something you yourself decided is bad. Something you think is a bad thing to do. Something you do not value, See no value in. Or see negative value in. You will confuse yourself and upset yourself and also feel guilty.
Or you might start to feel you are a bad person again?
You may find yourself wondering if you should recategorize the act from good to bad to stop feeling bad?
But this may be fooling yourself or being dishonest with yourself and you will suffer some internal consequences.
Oh no! So what’s the alternative again?
See myself as a basically good person who keeps making the same stupid mistake.
One good thing about this point f view is that I can put all the energy I was using up trying not to think about it or justifying it or hating myself into other things?

So back to my bad act. It was bad. It was bad behaviour. It was a bad act.
I have to accept that. I have to “own it”. I have to take responsibility for it.
So now I am responsible, is there anything else I could do to make things better?
If so, I must do it.
Is there anything I could do to try to ensure I do not do it again?
If so, I must do it.

I saw that certain bad attitudes and other bad behaviours had contributed to the bad act.
I saw that certain bad attitudes and other bad behaviours had or could have resulted from the bad act.

I need to change these things.
I will try.
I hope I can.

I do still feel a bit bad about it though! But not so bad!
Last edited by ladyjello on Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Postby funky » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:04 am

Ladyjello, I can't offer you any advice, I can only identify with what you wrote, and say, I hope that you're okay. This is a short post, but I just wanted to send you some support. All the best.
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Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Postby ladyjello » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:40 am

Thanks nine - actually feeling a bit better after this - ws still a bad thing but can't change the past - can only try to change a few attitudes and bahaviours that might stop me doing the same silly /bad thing again - so think this exercise has helped a bit - thanks for your support - all the best to you too :)
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Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Postby ThisEndUp » Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:51 pm

katana wrote:i guess when people try to suggest things or i feel like they are trying to push me in directions where i (feel like) people are trying to tell me they know what they think better than i do, or that they are trying to convince me (put me in a position where i am more vulnerable - as a person) than i really am and/or feel....


Hi Katana,
All I can do is tell you how I process it when something like this happens to me.
I think we all have self talk.
In a lot of ways our self talk sortof shapes our perception of the world.

Like if I FEEL depressed , I might say to myself, I can't do anything , I fail at everything I try, I never have what I want in life blah blah....

This is what I might tell myself INTERNALLY.

Of course the facts are that I can do stuff, I don't fail at everything I try and when I focus on something I want.....and take actions towards getting that....well eventually I do.

Self talk for me can be very good , when its good and very bad when its ugly.

I consider it a sort of mental reinforcement. The more negative messages I send myself this way....the more negative I become and this results in my actions being more negative as well.

So back to the point......and I do have one! LOL

Everyone is faced with people offering suggestions in life.......sometimes people don't even do that. Sometimes they wanna flat out tell you how to run your life. This feels worse to me then when someone is just putting suggestions on the table. It feels worse to anyone I would think. Control is control and who likes to be controlled???

Ok here is the thing......after some time I realized....I have a lot of power here.
I can let someone go on and on and on and tell me all kinds of $#%^ and I never have to do anything.
I have the last word now. I ALWAYS do. I am an adult and people can suggest and try to force and manipulate and say anything.....and at the end. Its still my life and my choice to do whatever I want with it. So a lot of times.....I am like, talk away!!!! Get it out....make all your points.

I use people as a reference. Like books. Books I really care about but still books. And they have about as much power over me as books do too. This is why I guess I don't feel pushed by them. Even when some people TRY to push....and some try really hard. I don't feel too bad about it. Although when they push super hard I tend to feel REBELLION. Like I want to do the exact opposite of whatever it is they just told me. I used to do this a lot with my mom. She was very controlling.

When I was building my SELF......at some point I had this epiphany of sorts. It seems my goal in being rebellious was not wanting mom to CONTROL me. Yet I realized that my doing ONLY the opposite was still allowing her to control me in a backwards sortof way, because it made me just as powerless over my choices in the sense that they were always opposite, but not necessarily in my best interest!! Not everything my mom said was bad or even something I didn't actually WANT for myself......so I felt like if I considered it and weighed to myself weather or not I thought it was good for me......asked myself if it alligned with what I really wanted or needed, then I was in some way TAKING it away from her and making it MINE. If it was good for me and what I wanted. I guess thats when I realized that I don't HAVE to do anything ANYONE tells me to do because I always have the last say in the matter. With the rebellion.... I mean it got to the point where.....if she said you need to be neater- I got sloppier! You need to study- I studied even less. You need to keep your mouth shut- I talked more. One of the few times this ever REALLY served me well was when she said: You can't go to college- I went! LOL Foiled mom again!!!

But in reality ...after a while I guess I thought that just doing the opposite was, in a way, leaving me JUST as out of control as doing what she told me to do. Because in both of those circumstances I never gave anything any thought.....never even considered ME and what I wanted or needed! I was important. I knew what I needed more then anyone, so I felt like I was not really stepping up to the plate and making my own choices till this epiphany. Then I became power hungry.......People became references and I could read them all I wanted and take all the best things for myself!! MUHAHAHAHAHA!! LOL

And I could leave the rest..... if I didn't like what they said or didn't agree or felt like it wasn't going to do anything for me.....then I just ignored it, or I just said no. Sometimes I like listening to people go on and on and take SOME of what they say but not all. Sometimes I allow myself to be amused by their efforts if they are REALLY controlling and REALLY trying to change my mind. I can't believe ALL that EFFORT they are putting into me, when they could be using it to run their own life!

If someone is abusive- generally I have found that their life is no picnic in the park. With them I sometimes say.....when you can run your own life then you can start telling me how to run mine. This usually shuts them up. I used to say this to the N ex all the time and he always got quiet.

People usually have good intentions though.....I mean so it doesn't hurt me to listen and like I said.....I never feel pushed so much anymore because I realize all the power lays with me in the end.
Due To Circumstances Beyond My Control I am Master of My Fate and Captain of My Soul http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AdultsRecoveringFrom-NarcissiticParents/messages
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Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Postby margharris » Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:26 pm

People only put a lot of effort in when they care about you. Be kind to yourself and forgive.
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Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Postby ThisEndUp » Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:54 pm

ladyjello wrote:So what about all this stuff about forgiving yourself and moving on looking at the behaviour being bad but not the person? Could I feel better if I looked at it like that. Think I hear Oprah say something about that in the past and think I saw things like that for a while, but I lost it. Now here is ThisEndUp saying something similar and offering her views like a life raft or something. She seems cool and confident and centred and I want some of that. Maybe I should try it her way. Apply her “philosophy” to this.
Then I thought about what TwistedMister said about how some people in another forum all see themselves as saints and I have wondered to what extent I do that but obviously I’m not and maybe I’m being dishonest with myself and he seems so honest owing his “dark-side”. Seems a plus rather than a minus. But them maybe its easier for a man to be like that? But even so being an honest person who does bad things might be better than being a dishonest person who does good things? But then I’ve got that wrong – you’ve got to look at people and yourself as all good basically – or maybe not judge their basic worth at all – only judge their behaviour.



I can only speak for myself here. In my life I OWN the bad ACT. But I don't OWN being a BAD person. If I did.....then all my BAD acts would cancel out all my good acts. I would be left with nothing. Value is a factor. Bad acts have value....but only when they are turned into good acts. Bad actions always result in some sort of DESTRUCTION- destruction of trust, destruction of respect , destruction of the relationship on some level. Good acts also have value. Good acts ALWAYS have VALUE. Bad acts ALWAYS have the POTENTIAL for having NO VALUE- but only if I LEAVE them as BAD ACTS. If I leave them as bad acts....they DESTROY stuff. Destruction.....is just that. And destruction in and of iteself ...9 times out of 10 has either no value or only a negative value when it destroys something GOOD.


I want to add that BAD actions, do not ONLY hurt the other person. I have never committed a bad act which ONLY hurt someone else. In fact ....there are times when my bad acts ONLY hurt me. For example: lets say my bad act is thinking I can't DO anything. I think this over and over.....The THOUGHT which is also an ACTION on my part....paralyses me into actually DOING nothing!!! So....I have just hurt myself. I can't get anything done. Now if I change this thought into a good one. I can do anything. Then I change the outcome too and its good for me.

Now in relation to others. You are completely on the money when you say VALUES have something to do with this. VALUES are a basis of my SELF or my middle. I don't follow the values of OTHER people. I follow MY VALUES. The thing is.....if you grow up in an abusive family , and I did, everyone else is always trying to CONTROL you and tell you what your VALUES SHOULD be. And another problem in most abusive relationships is THEIR values usually FLUCTUATE! My mom may assign me a value: We don't quit jobs just because we don't like our boss. Moms value is - she doesn't want to look like a quitter, doesn't want any one of her kids looking like a quitter either. And since she isn't the one putting up with the bad boss....she just expects her little appendages to comply. So then lets say mom has a bad boss. Mom then changes the RULES on us. In her case no one should allow themselves to be treated like that. She quits. FU*K me!!! LOL

If mom doesn't have to suffer why should I? How come I am BAD if I quit my job with the bad boss but she is GOOD??? This is WHY I don't use someone elses VALUES to run MY life. Its also why I don't just make choices on the fly, considering how OTHERS feel , but never considering what is good for me.

All my values have a basis.....I try to do what I think is right, fair, and honest for me and for others. This means if I form a VALUE.....not only will I apply it to me, but I will also apply it to me in REVERSE. So if I were my mom for example:::::SHUTTER::::::::

Before I would even offer my child a value, I would consider if I would live it myself. So I would say to myself: if I had a bad boss would I stay? If the answer is no. Then THAT is the value I adopt. Why?? Because I don't treat myself like Sh*T so why would I treat other people like sh*t or expect them to treat themselves like Sh*T????? If I would do it myself.....then I obviously think its good for me. If I would do it myself...then I obviously think its fair. If it takes into account all of the facts relating to the situation then I obviously think its honest. If I would be willing to do it and have no problem with it or feel no insult to myself in doing it....then I obviously think others won't either.

People like fairness. People can seem completely UNREASONABLE I have found and yet when you say that word to them FAIR....fair to you and fair to me. They tend to not have problems with it. People LOVE fairness. EQUALITY.

So that is a big factor in this.

What if a friend told me they had done this thing? Would I forgive them? What if they had done this to me? Would I forgive them? Would see her as a bad person or as a person who had done a bad thing?
(Being honest, it might kind of depend how much already like or dislike her. Oh no! This is complicating things – I’ll think more about this another time – does whether or not I forgive me depend on if I like myself – and does whether or not I like myself depend on whether I see myself as a good or bad person – oh no brain loop!*).
So for now, assuming I like her, and if she was genuinely sorry, I would forgive her and not see her as a bad person but as a good person who did a bad thing and feels bad about it?
(What if she didn’t feel bad about it? – then you could not forgive her – and she would not be asking for forgiveness?)



Ok here is the thing. You don't correct the bad act for someone ELSE. Its nice for them.....it feels good to them.....it may even leave them with warm fuzzies......but you do it for you. How they feel about it doesn't matter. I mean if you leave it bad.....it will matter to them, but if you leave it bad.....it will also matter to you - GUILT. You have violated not THEIR but YOUR values. If you DID violate THEIR values.....it would only be coincidental. And the fact that a lot of people share the same BIG values makes coincidence happen A LOT!! LOL But that doesn't mean you fix things for them. You indirectly fix things for them, but the primary motivation for fixing the bad act is for you. Not the FOUNDATION you, but the working you. At the foundation level you and others are ONE. But at the top....where all the work is going on......you do it to build. So in a way....you are doing it for them....and not. You are in a sense that at the foundation level you and they are connected....one in spirit. But at the top....you are separate. And you fix things at the top for you.....to keep building the self and living your values. LOL Hope this makes sense.

So if I now think of myself as a basically good person who did a bad thing, how does that feel?
A bit fake! A bit of a relief! WOW, I’m off the hook!
And for someone who has always tending to think they are bad and for whom every bad act only confirmed their inner badness and kept the vicious circle going, this is a huge change of perspective!
Must be something wrong with it?
Surely feeling like that would just make me do it again?
I could do something bad now and just immediately forgive myself? Or not even feel bad about it?

You say here: "Surely feeling like that would make me just do it again."

Do you know WHY you say this?

I used to say this too. The reason I did was because I thought of myself as a bad person. I didn't trust that if I was let go......if I gave myself the freedom to do anything I wanted , and you do when you do this, that I would be good. I didn't think I would be good, because I thought I was a bad person at my core self. One reason you don't continue to do the same BAD acts over and over is because you become aware that bad acts don't ONLY hurt the other person. EVERY bad act hurts you too. So every time you beat someone else up.....you are beating yourself up emotionally, creating guilt ect.....Every time you commit bad acts you are killing yourself. Why would ANYONE continue to do that??? Some sort of self suicide mission. Awareness of how bad acts hurt you....is what keeps you in check. It also reinforces the fact that you are good.
So how did I get the idea in the first place that I was BAD at my core??? Reinforcement.

Everything reinforces itself. Each bad act reinforces bad acts. Enough bad acts and I come to believe I AM BAD. But no one starts off in life just committing BAD acts.

THOUGHTS are acts. VERBAL messages from other people INFLUENCE our thoughts.
If you have a parent giving you messages over and over and over that - you are BAD.
Then you think to yourself over and over and over - I am bad. Then I AM BAD- which is a lie....becomes your reality. Its a lie because who the fu*k is your parent to judge you? Who died and left them boss? Parents are not supposed to judge your goodness or badness. Parents are supposed to teach you to become independent and self sufficient. To be MORE YOU not less you. Instead an abusive parent teaches their kid to be LESS YOU. They want you to be MORE THEM....to serve them.....to be their golden child or their whipping post. To be everything they want you to be. Their BAD actions which are NEVER corrected.....CREATE a negative SELF in a child. Remember I said destruction can destroy GOOD. So you have a child. The child starts off with almost NO ACTS to speak of. Just a GOOD child. No acts to eliminate when the bad comes.....but their is a self....and the parents bad acts go to work on that instead. When the child starts actually DOING stuff......they already have a negative self. Although some may still have a MORE positive self from which to draw on depending on the extent of abuse.

You could argue ...how do we know the child is GOOD when its born?
And I would say.....who creates something for destruction, unless they are going to rebuild it better? I mean people create $#%^ all the time.....we build bridges and building and cars and cities ect....stuff keeps going up and up.....and when it comes down.......you get something better in its place.
I believe in God. And I do think the BAD or NEGATIVE self the parent has control over and has created is eventually meant to be destroyed. All parents screw their children to some extent. ALL of them do. I am always amazed when people here talk about NORMS.......where is this NOMRAL person? because I would like to meet them. I have never met one. NEVER. Please someone show me the normal person because I want to see this miracle of life!! LOL
Ok as I was saying.... the foundation....the original GOOD or the root of the child.......is ALWAYS there....always good.....
LOL thats just my opinion

Another problem is a child has no mental ability to question their parents judgement. They also have a lack of physical power and they also TRUST the parent unquestionably at first. So the parents bad behavior often punishes a child for something good. This is a MAJOR MIND F*CK!!!
Its about teaching the child that LIES are true. Its like being brainwashed. Thats why it feels FAKE to think of oneself as GOOD.

Is it true? Is it untrue? Do we believe we are bad because its the message we got over and over?
Or are we bad and thats the truth? Lies and truth. Even liars admit they can convince themselves that their lies are true.

I don't need to have anyone tell me which is better lies or truth. I know what I live. My experience is more convincing then anyones word will ever be.

My mom was a liar. To survive.....the rebellious me did not cave in and submit like some children do. Maybe it was just my nature to rebel. But my rebellion told me to hang on to reality with truth. It has never served me wrong. And I base that on results. Lies always resulted in confusion, feelings of betrayal, hurt, being fake. How do those things serve anyone? Least of all me?? The worst lies are half truths......lies of omission. I have no use for lies. They only muddy clear waters. If something is good....it doesn't hurt anyone. Lies hurt people. Thats my experience. And the worst lies are lies people believe to be true. And probably the worst of those is that people are BAD. If people really ARE bad.....then there would be NO good. NONE. Because the bad is a destructive force. If everyone truely unleashed all that destruction.....there would be nothing left.

No. Value system comes in here. If you choose to do something repeatedly you must either think it is ok or if you think it is bad you will feel bad because you did something you yourself decided is bad. Something you think is a bad thing to do. Something you do not value, See no value in. Or see negative value in. You will confuse yourself and upset yourself and also feel guilty.
Or you might start to feel you are a bad person again?
You may find yourself wondering if you should recategorize the act from good to bad to stop feeling bad?
But this may be fooling yourself or being dishonest with yourself and you will suffer some internal consequences.


Here it looks like you are answering your own question. Just because you do something over and over doesn't mean you are bad or that you don't have a value. It means you are not LIVING or HONORING your value. Here is where the brainwashing comes in. Also its about survival. Little kids have no power. And they don't have much ability to think in depth about things. They don't know how to determine if something is really int heir best interest in the long run. They only know about now. For a kid.....its not about others. Its not about being fair or right or honest. Its not even about WHO they are. Its about survival. Survival of the mind.....sanity.....soul. A kid does whatever they have to to survive mentally. And mental dysfunction.......served them well at one time. The problem is as adults.....it serves them poorly. Other people are not abusive. Other people are not their parents. Other people do not always abuse and betray and lie. And they grow up with a childs mentality. Feeling powerless- even though time has given them POWER and control over their lives, their thoughts, and their FEET!! LOL But they don't see this often. Often their feet stay and their mind stays right where its always been....in childhood. And all other people become various shades of their parent to them. So if you have a parent who says I love you and then smacks you in the head with a frying pan. Your assumption is....maybe anyone who says I love you is gonna do the same thing. You anticipate THAT not because its TRUE, but because its all you know. You have no other reference....you only have your family or origin. And they are a BAD reference. So with more healthy people you REACT in survival mode. Trouble is....not much thinking goes on in survival mode. Taking ACTION and responsibility and really questioning things and evaluating behaviors and weighing the possibilities and outcomes and the effect on me....well thats just never been a part of a childs coping skills. A childs coping skills are REACTIVE not PROACTIVE. When an adult becomes AWARE....when an adult starts thinking things through and giving choices and values more consideration, then logically......they stop doing things that hurt themselves and others. They will SEE things from new perspectives. Arriving on the adult scene an abused child has only ONE perspective and that is their family of origins. This is a poor reference for them, but for a time....its all they have.
When they create a value......then the value I think FEELs real. What doesn't FEEL real is ACTING or honoring the value. Maybe you can test that out for me ! LOL I say that because of this.....even BAD parents will MOUTH good values. Or bad parents will tell a child.....these values aren't for you.......these values you need to apply to me. In other words. A bad parent may send the message....You should always treat me with GOOD values, but I don't have to treat you that way.
So this is why I think for someone with no self......the assumption is that the actions they are taking to honor the value is THEM. But thats not true. The ACTIONS are NOT the self. The ACTIONS only reinforce the self. The VALUES ....they are the TRUE SELF.

So if I can say to myself for example: It is not good to lie. Lying doesn't serve me well anymore. The truth always leads to good things in the end. This is a value. This is the self.
Now lets say they try to live that....take action in honoring the value. THE ACTION may feel fake, especially if they have lied to survive in their house growing up. But the ACTION is not the SELF. How can ACTION be self? Action is action....
The VALUE is a constant. Its solid. It stays if it serves the person in a good way. THE VALUE is the SELF. NOT THE ACTIONs.
Here is another thing about lying. If I am a kid. I grow up lying to survive. Because it served me then, but I become an adult and notice that everytime I lie all hel breaks loose. I am going to start questioning my value that lying is good. The thing is.....I also have no experience for telling the truth. So hoow can I know for SURE that truth is better then lying if I don't practice it enough? Its like having 2 pies in front of you......all your life you ate Apple pie and it sustained you. Now someone puts a meat and veggie pie in front of you and says ....stop eating that Apple pie. This will sustain you even better.
Well I don't know.....
I eat meat pie and its not as sweet. It is ok....but not as good to me in some ways....
If I stop eating it cause it doesn't SEEM as good....cause I don't really TRUST it, then I don't get the benefit of the veggies and the meat...which eventually would sustain me better then an apple pie which is mostly sugar and fiber. But a body needs protein and vitamins ect too.....more then sugar. At the same time I can have the value that protein and vitamins are good for me. But my actions ....well......they feel weird.
People do this all the time with food. Everyone knows what kinda food is good for them and what is not. But who the hell likes veggies? How can I trust them? They don;t make me feel good in the moment. And yet if you talk to someone who eats well....they tell you...eventually....you get used to it, you feel better, you have more energy, ect......
The VALUE is the self. The ACTIONS only support it.

So back to my bad act. It was bad. It was bad behaviour. It was a bad act.
I have to accept that. I have to “own it”. I have to take responsibility for it.
So now I am responsible, is there anything else I could do to make things better?
If so, I must do it.
Is there anything I could do to try to ensure I do not do it again?
If so, I must do it.

I saw that certain bad attitudes and other bad behaviours had contributed to the bad act.
I saw that certain bad attitudes and other bad behaviours had or could have resulted from the bad act.

I need to change these things.
I will try.
I hope I can.

I do still feel a bit bad about it though! But not so bad!



Imagine all the actions you have taken in your life. How can ONE bad act define you? Why would you let it? One bad act can't define anyone. And if you change the bad into good, then the bad acts will never be able to define you. People can do and SHOULD feel guilty for violating their value systems. That is healthy guilt, meant to motivate you to change. Also keep in mind bad acts HURT you too....so the guilt is not only for someone else. Its for you too.
Healthy guilt is not the same as UNHEALTHY guilt.
Unhealthy guilt is about CONTROL.
When someone uses guilt to control you.....its not about values......its about them getting what they want. What they want is to get you to do something their way. They try to use your own values against you. If you VALUE THEM more then you value YOURSELF. If you see them as BETTER then you. Then you will not consider yourself at all when making a decision. You will only consider them and cave in. However. If you see yourself as EQUAL to them, then your needs become just as important as theirs and just because they WANT something, doesn't mean it is FAIR to you or RIGHT for you. If its not fair to you and not right for you....then guess what? Its not about values. Your values always INCLUDE you in the equation. If they have RESPECT for you....then their values would too. If they don;t have respect for you, if they don't care about you....then you are not a part of their values and you are being used by them selfishly. They are TAKING from you in this situation for their own personal benefit. Why would you allow it? You have as much value as they do. Your needs are as important, your wants are too. You have to weigh things FAIRLY. If its about controlling you with guilt....then you don;t have to feel guilty at all. Come up with a compromise or a solution that is best. But if they have NO respect for you....then you really don;t owe them anything. Not even compromise. Why should you give someone more value if they couldn't give a rats behind about you? That is just allowing yourself to be abused.

Hope this makes sense
Due To Circumstances Beyond My Control I am Master of My Fate and Captain of My Soul http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AdultsRecoveringFrom-NarcissiticParents/messages
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Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Postby ThisEndUp » Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:42 pm

margharris wrote:People only put a lot of effort in when they care about you. Be kind to yourself and forgive.


hmmmm I disagree with this. I mean I am here in a personality disorder forum. Many of these folks will tell you outright they don't care a thing about anyone else. And its been my experience that these are some of the most controlling people around with advice, being pushy, wanting you to change to do what they think you should do, be who you think they should be, act how they want you to act. The N ex was SO controlling that he tried to insist I drink red wine ( cause he liked it, I hated it) artichokes ( same thing) and dip my bread in my stew before eating it ( I hate soggy bread, he liked it) None of this is good for me on any level. And I know its not good to be controlling of others.

I understand a lot of advice is well intended, but the older I get the more I realize that giving advice is useless useless someone has asked for it. Unsolicited advice comes off as condescending.....and it is.......people have the power and ability to run their own lives, they know what is best for them. Do they always make the right choices?? No, but they are capable and change really can only come about if someone wants it for themselves.

Forgiving is good.......boundaries are good too.
Due To Circumstances Beyond My Control I am Master of My Fate and Captain of My Soul http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AdultsRecoveringFrom-NarcissiticParents/messages
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