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Omnipotence and Lying

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Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Postby ThisEndUp » Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:14 am

katana wrote:Mostly as a child I felt absolutely livid about people trying to make me powerless. I didn't feel small and vulnerable as much as a felt a refusal to be small and vulnerable.


Katana!!!

I had some thoughts about this whole thing and wanted to run them by you......

I want to start by saying......I don't know what you feel, can't tell you how to feel, and I don't want to.

But I do want to ask you if you if I am understanding you right here.

From what you've said.....my perception is you don't want others to see you as weak or vulnerable.
You don't feel that yourself....and so why should they?
Am I close here?
The reason I ask is because if that is true then its a control thing.

Now I am not saying I understood you right, but if I did I want to put some thoughts out here.

Maybe they will be helpful to you. Maybe not. Its your life and your decision and you know whats best for you. I thoroughly believe that about everyone , by the way. I think we all REALLY know what we need and what is best for us. The only thing I think we sometimes don't have is awareness or maybe not even that.......maybe its more like.....a problem that you keep trying to come up with a solution to....and for whatever reason.....that *out of the box* solution doesn't always fly into ones radar or something.

ok so if I understood you correctly, it seems like you want to control how others see you.
Especially if they are interacting with you....and you get the idea they see you in a certain way....that vulnerable way.

The thing about this is......we have no control over how others wish to see us, because they choose to see us in a way that has something to do with THEM.
Here is what I mean by this, and why how they see you....really has nothing to do with you at all.
I am a nurse. When I was working in the clinic.....I used to like to draw blood. I would tell myself I was good at it. I was great at it. I could get anyone! I WANTED to see myself like this.
And because of how I felt about MYSELF.....I saw EVERYONE in such a way as to make ME feel this way when drawing blood. So it was not something I felt about myself at all times and in all situations.....it was ONLY in that particular situation , when I had to draw blood that I had this attitude. Now I don't have to tell you......not everyone is the same. They just aren't. But to me.......they were! They were all potential SUCCESSES of MINE!!!
Now everyone DOES have the same veins........they are just not identically the same in everyone.
But it didn't matter to me how many times someone else stuck them, how much they said they had bad veins, they could tell me jesus christ himself couldn't get their veins and I wouldn't care....nothing phased the way I saw it. NOTHING they could say or do was going to change my mind because this is how I wanted to see them.

At the same time , another girl I worked with, hated drawing blood. She also saw everyone the same. Someone could have these bulging veins in their arm and she would groan.......

At the same time, each of us could look at the same person, and see TWO entirely different things!!!

So here is how this relates......you mention that it really upsets you to be seen as vulnerable, but would it be so upsetting if they saw you that way because for example.....they wanted to feel THEMSELVES like a big brother or a father or a caretaker of some kind? They wanted to be the big strong person that you could lean on, not because you need that, but because THEY need to feel like that. You see what I am saying? Its not about you. Now in this case.....there could also be some people with a much less endearing quality about their need to see you as vulnerable.......some people might want to see themselves as big and powerful or smarter and ......you know....more condescending ways of seeing themselves. But even them......you could look at and say....of brother....this jerk thinks HE's a big powerful dictator!
In other words instead of trying to change their opinion of yourself, which is really out of your control, you CAN change the way you see things and then decide for yourself what you really want to do about it, how you want to handle it. That way, you take the power you have and focus it on some solution to whatever situation you are in.

With the big jerk, you can think up some way to not allow him to control you. And with that....the fact of the matter is, NO ONE can control you, cause no one has any final say over anything you do.....so allowing the big jerk to spin their wheels and THINK they have some soirt of control when they really don't, might be kindof amusing when in the end you walk away and say , yeah but no. LOL I mean then you are SHOWING them.....that as much as they might WANT to believe they have all this power over you, the fact is, they don't and never can have it.

With a nicer person, someone who is really more showing that they have a need to be seen as helpful or caring or whatever, well.....with them, you can still not give in to that, but at the same time I imagine there could be times when it would be more like you were giving them a gift. A gift of your own free will to allow them to feel good about themselves. The other thing is to do either of these ....you are trying to judge their motives, which I think is very possible. Its possible to see who has a good motive and who doesn't

My mom growing up ALWAYS saw me as the f*ckup. She had NO plans for me. NONE. I was a failure and she just accepted this about me. This is how she saw me, and it never changed. Still hasn't changed.
Now here is the IRONY of all this. I worked SOOOO hard to change her vision of me. She had all these plans for my sister, who was the golden child. The Golden child- also, was never seen as anything other then GOLDEN. She could rob a bank and my mom would not see it! This child could do no wrong, even when she did wrong.
So my mom had these plans.....my sister was going to go to college, marry a professional, have a nice house and a car and a kid in the extra room.
I did all that. I didn't even WANT it. I just did it to force mom to see me like she saw the golden girl. The golden girl.....didn't follow the plan. And like I said, ironically nothing is changed. I followed the plan and no one even gave a sh*T!!! LOL!!!
I wish....I followed my own plan now. Cause I spent so much time and energy trying to make myself be seen a certain way by my mom........
And don't get me wrong....I have a good life, but I [probably would have done a few things differently had I not been focusing so much on being the opposite of how someone else saw me.
In this way I was following a plan.....someone elses plan. I just let them steer things in this weird way...... I cared too much I guess how they saw me, but not enough how I saw myself.
Who did I WANT TO BE?

I mean Fu*K them and how they saw me. Who did I want to be? Because I never had the power to change how they saw me. But I did have the power to be whoever I wanted to be. And now I don't care what someone else sees. Its not about me. I see me and the way I want to be and I try to be THAT person. MY Person. And if they don't like it or its not who they see .....then too bad. Its what I SEE that matters. I have to live with me. I don't have to live with them. I have to be happy with me. I don't have to do anything for them. Unless I CHOOSE to. Unless its what I want for myself.
Sometimes who I want to be agrees with how others see me.......sometimes it doesn't now. But always always.....it doesn't matter how they see me. Because how I see myself is more important. And how they see me is all about them anyway. My mom for example.......she is SPLIT! I was conceived out of wedlock. My dad left before I was born, cheated on my mom....all bad for her...My mom grew up catholic. At the time this was a HUGE no no. And my mom was just torn up inside with shame and guilt. She projected all that onto me. I was the recepticle of ALL her shame and bad acts. Whenever ANYTHING was wrong or bad or not going well at home growing up.....it was piled onto me. And I accepted it for a while. For a long while I allowed THEM to define who I was. In some ways I did it subconsciously....in other ways I fought their vision of me. My sister....born in wedlock ( surprise surprise) . Her dad and my mom been married forever.....true LOVE. So its no wonder she got the Golden Girl title. My mom put us each part of herself into boxes....and I got the bad box. LOL I couldn't be happier now though because my sister is saddled to my mom. And I am FREE!!!!

I am just saying that....the way people treat us.....often has much less to do with us then it has to do with them. A fraction of how they treat us has to do with us....with the interaction....with what we both want from each other. Whats left is do you want to give what they need? In the end we always have the choice and the power to be us. To live what WE want to live. If we give its a gift of our choice and if we don't its a no and they have to accept it.

Anyway.....those are just some thoughts that came to my mind.
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Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Postby katana » Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:22 am

Wow, Thanks ThisEndUp,

thanks for such a long detailed reply!

I wanted to respond at least a little bit before i think too much, cause when that happens i end up feeling like my head is going round in circles, lol.

ThisEndUp wrote:But I do want to ask you if you if I am understanding you right here.

From what you've said.....my perception is you don't want others to see you as weak or vulnerable.
You don't feel that yourself....and so why should they?
Am I close here?
The reason I ask is because if that is true then its a control thing.


Yes that's true, its not just close its dead on.
And yes, i think you're right about it being a control thing too.

Its true that there is some focus on how others percieve me, and at least a little bit of what they think as well as how they interact with me.

I don't (think) self-perception and how they feel about me is the major issue driving my problems, more like its just sitting in there next to the control thing ? But you're also right, it is there.

Also i seem to have contradictory feelings there. thinking people in general, i.e. not loved ones or close friends etc. on one hand i feel that I don't care what they think of me, but on the other hand I don't want them to treat me that way, or possibly even think of me that way, which is a contradiction that's really hard to explain.

I suppose I mean its not about being judged, i.e. not about taking on board their opinions and judging my self according to them, so i am not giving control over my own self image/self esteem to others, but for some reason i seem to want to control what they think anyway, lol.

I understand exactly what you're saying, it definitely registers on an intellectual level and makes sense, so why am i still annoyed at the idea? is it just that it doesn't register on another level, or is it that some other issue makes it somehow "irrelevant" meaning you're right, and i get you, but why isn't it exactly affecting things?

ThisEndUp wrote:So here is how this relates......you mention that it really upsets you to be seen as vulnerable, but would it be so upsetting if they saw you that way because for example.....they wanted to feel THEMSELVES like a big brother or a father or a caretaker of some kind? They wanted to be the big strong person that you could lean on, not because you need that, but because THEY need to feel like that. You see what I am saying? Its not about you.


ok, this might sound bad, but i guess im learning the best way to respond to questions is be as straightforward and honest as i can. it wouldn't (directly) upset me but it would probably annoy me. (depending on the person, the circumstances etc.) like, "do you like this person enough to let their dog take a $#%^ on your lawn" sort of thing, Lol.

i think if it was some random stranger, i wouldn't find it endearing at all, i'd find it some sort of violation of my interpersonal rights or something. Like ok so that's your problem, but go $#%^ on someone else's damn lawn! But yes i could put up with it better than the other scenario. - in theory.

Of course it would bother me, because then they would act "caring" and i experience that as "hostile" and insulting. lol ....but didn't i just go round in a circle there ?! lol

The scenario with the big jerk, easy, i just want to smack them over the head with a big lump of wood or something. :lol:

sometimes i allow people (meaning people i encounter from day to day, not loved ones) to think im more vulnerable for various reasons, and it doesn't bother me. ....because i am in control ? :oops: arrgghhh im a control freak! lol

lots of things want to end up flying round my head at the moment, but i think i'm learning take it one piece at a time!

I think control is a major problem. i don't know if self-perception comes in a close second, or is a more minor problem. not sure.

somewhere in the middle i'm missing something cause otherwise i'd have just gone "ahhhhh" and stopped doing it just like that, lol. but you're right - about all of it i think.

Thank you! :)
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Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Postby tracybluebird » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:00 am

[quote=}

I can laugh at this now, as he just seemed absurd, but I think it is a good into how their mind justifies lying.[/quote]

I am working on laughing....I divorced one with NPD, and recently confirmed my own father's NPD when I found he has been having an affair with a still married family friend and about 15 of his own marriage to my Mom before she died.

In trying to explain this to my kids, to help them through all the "lies" their Dad told in denying hurts and actual physical abuse he inflicted upon them, I prefer "altered reality" to lies. Like others have stated, they are lies to the "liars," they can take an intricate scenario, which they experience in a room of others, and go away and come back with their altered reality. The way I explained it to my kids, it is as though the incidents were written in dry erase marker, their Dad or Grampa goes away into their mind, and sort of smudge out the hurts and anything in contradiction to their perfect portrayal of self, and create their new perception, their new portrait of the situation.
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Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Postby katana » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:09 am

That was a very long-winded way of saying it pisses me off when others think I am weak and vulnerable because this causes them to treat me that way. The actions I would then prefer to take to not have to put up with that treatment are socially unacceptable, and therefore place me in a position where I have to sit there and get more and more pissed off.

-- Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:11 am --

Its also a result of my own actions. I have to act deceptively, then I get angry about the results, and have to continue acting deceptively.

As far as other people's thoughts etc/interacting with them goes, many people never get to know me and trying to maintain friendships just becomes a source of constant frustration.
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Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Postby tracybluebird » Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:24 am

[quote="katana"] therefore place me in a position where I have to sit there and get more and more pissed off.[quote]

I think what makes it so hard for me to deal with the situation I am in, is the fact I dealt with anger when I was a kid, and realized how the pissed off just hurt me. I evolved into a really peaceful person, and I just feel drained and exasperated more than pissed.

When I have a good pissed off moment every once in a while, it does feel somewhat good to vent...consistently being pissed off is SO tiring! Ex is starting to wind up custody stuff again....makes me exhausted just thinking about it....
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Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Postby Euler » Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:09 am

Lik
e others have stated, they are lies to the "liars," they can take an intricate scenario, which they experience in a room of others, and go away and come back with their altered reality. The way I explained it to my kids, it is as though the incidents were written in dry erase marker, their Dad or Grampa goes away into their mind, and sort of smudge out the hurts and anything in contradiction to their perfect portrayal of self, and create their new perception, their new portrait of the situation


Don't get me the wrong way, but I don't think you get it.

Seriously try to imagine this...

"Humans" look like you but act and are wired completely different from you. You grow up and you learn to mimic their behavior. You don't get it but its rather simple...they feel x and they act y in consequence. You still don't get it, but you memorize the variations of social cues to take advantage.
That's it. Feeling, emotion, etc are simple social constructs to you...and that's it. There's your meaning in life.

Of course you can keep tabs on multiple people at once, remember exactly what you've said, how you said, and their body language throughout the way. They can't do that. So, you feel omnipresent since its seriously easy to get away with such craps.

Personally, I feel that, at least, some empathy fulfills that something that's missing. The sad part about NPD, is that "real" un-worked-out feelings come up from the real-self that hasn't been acknowledged. With intense serious work on bringing that real-self out and feeling what you need to feel it becomes relaxing to acknowledge your limitations. That you don't have the pressure to be a god and totally in control all the time. Then your narcissistic traits will give you what you really need, because there is no cure, but you're happy with feeling and seeing your own limitations. In the end, your still the "solid" unwavering person, and given praise, but for the proper reasons...that you contributed.
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Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Postby jgrayzz » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:09 pm

Yes...the lying mechanism. It's a subconscious thing. Mostly white lies, but in the thrill of the moment I can get carried away.

I've been wondering, are there any Narcs out there that suffer from an actual god-complex? Usually it's those cult leaders and those junkies within the Gov., but what about that state of mind in which you actually believe you should be a deity...
Mother died today. Or maybe yesterday; I can't be sure.
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Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Postby katana » Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:04 pm

tracybluebird wrote:
katana wrote: therefore place me in a position where I have to sit there and get more and more pissed off.


I think what makes it so hard for me to deal with the situation I am in, is the fact I dealt with anger when I was a kid, and realized how the pissed off just hurt me. I evolved into a really peaceful person, and I just feel drained and exasperated more than pissed.

When I have a good pissed off moment every once in a while, it does feel somewhat good to vent...consistently being pissed off is SO tiring! Ex is starting to wind up custody stuff again....makes me exhausted just thinking about it....


There are different ways of "dealing with" anger and if you feel drained and exasperated you didn't really deal with the anger, you learned to force it down or displace it, or jump straight to helplessness because you see the anger as impossible to help you in any way, where if you have done any of those things it would harm you indirectly instead.

Euler wrote:Of course you can keep tabs on multiple people at once, remember exactly what you've said, how you said, and their body language throughout the way. They can't do that. So, you feel omnipresent since its seriously easy to get away with such craps.


I guess its different for everyone and i dont see why some non-narcissistic people wouldn't remember exactly what people said to them - or that its necessary for all narcissistic people to remember. Despite understanding learning to mimic, I never had enough OCD/meticulousness to be overly concerned with or focussed on exactly what people said to me, though I've often remembered anyway and seen plenty of other people remember things too.

I spent most of my life being aware there was only a certain amount that could be done with words in that sense, so I would suggest why bother to do that unless you feel afraid people will be able to use things against you if you can't use them against them.

Did you grow up with a parent/person/people in your life who would remember everything that happened and twist it back on you or use it against you if you didn't remember it at all?

Euler wrote:The sad part about NPD, is that "real" un-worked-out feelings come up from the real-self that hasn't been acknowledged.


Disorders aside, I also relate to this because I haven't been able to be in touch with my own real feelings either. While there was some narcissism thrown into the mix, this wasn't exactly because of narcissism for me, - more like any problems with narcissism were a symptom/offshoot of the main issue which caused those feelings to be inaccessible, but I've shared a similar problem there.

Euler wrote:With intense serious work on bringing that real-self out and feeling what you need to feel it becomes relaxing to acknowledge your limitations. That you don't have the pressure to be a god and totally in control all the time.


I only found it informative and productive to recognise the limitations of reality better. For me it wasn't a case of self-limitations so much as cause and effect. If you want something, or to be good at something, there may be things you have to do to go out and get that thing or to gain skills that take time, take upkeep or consistency, involve working from scratch and accepting how the learning curve works etc.

Omnipotence or not is simple - no one can be, "everyone is a prisoner of fate" meaning, however powerful you are, there is always a way you will be vulnerable. I don't know about NPD and pressure to be a god, because I never felt pressure to be perfect when I was up myself, lol. Mine was closer linked to inability to accept any form of vulnerability.

Euler wrote:Then your narcissistic traits will give you what you really need, because there is no cure, but you're happy with feeling and seeing your own limitations. In the end, your still the "solid" unwavering person, and given praise, but for the proper reasons...that you contributed.


This makes no sense. If you don't feel you have to be a god, have realistic views about how to access your own capabilities etc. and what you might realistically accomplish in a lifetime, in the society we live in, (remembering unrealistically negative is not realistic either,) then the narcissism is gone.

If you mean disconnected emotionally from others, if you sort the narcissism and its still there, that is not narcissism, you have another issue going on there. Its more likely to be rooted in something to do with how you had to relate to yourself and others that you may have used the narcissism to protect from, and by how you describe things (which makes sense), to attempt to form a functional adult/developed personality in the absence of one.

And if you are really rid of the narcissism, feeling a need for praise or needing to be a solid unwavering person might be completely normal things that come within values, they might define some of the things you feel you need to live up to.

What would change would be that you would judge yourself moment to moment according to those values, and because it would be moment to moment not a great big massive self-evaluation, your feelings around that would cause you to act in a way that means you would be a person who lived up to those values instead of needing others and yourself to support a situation where you can blindly see you that way and feeling horrifying shame every time anything happened that suggested you were not. Basically you wouldn't have narcissistic traits in the pathological sense any more.
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Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Postby tigertim » Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:21 pm

katana wrote:
I have to act deceptively, then I get angry about the results, and have to continue acting deceptively.




Why?
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Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Postby ThisEndUp » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:34 pm

ITS OK
Twistedmister wrote:Hello,

I haven't gotten a chance to get at your reply yet.........our talk, has become quite time consuming and although i like it, it's a problem for me.......procrastination. I should be working.....


Of course, i keep saying "one more post".......but that's why, the one more post hasn't been a reply. Cause i can't fool myself.....i know replying to you, will take some time probably............



That's why i'm just picking out this...........for now.


I believe everyone is born thinking



I wonder, what thought must be like for them..........do you think there is such a thing as worth in the mind of a newborn?


Sorry......i just think this is the problem with you! You believe a lot of crazy sh*t lady!

:mrgreen:
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