Sub-types of NPD.

TooConfused wrote:I've seen two different categorization of NPD. Covert vs overt and vulnerable vs grandiose. I'm a little lazy to read all the 7 pages of this thread. I can identify myself with vulnerable NPD and also, to a lesser degree, with covert NPD. How much these categorizations overlap? Can someone depict a map of different categorizations of NPD? Thanks.

Perhaps @meagain can respond. He refers to various types.

All I see is cerebral and somatic, covert and grandiose/classic. And, those can exist in any mix. (I think there can be covert somatics. Imagine someone who obtains supply by pointing out their flaws, expecting over-compensation from others. We might never hear of it because it would be diagnose as a somatic neurosis, negativist PD or histrionic attention-seeking? It wouldn't surprise me if it doesn't exist as a negative compensatory trait.).

Beyond that, it sounds like the same things expressed a multitude of ways (overt, closet, fragile, high-functioning, compensatory, tempestuous). Often they sound confusing to me because, for example, IMO high-functioning Ns are the most fragile. They over-compensate the most.

Millon has some subtypes you could look at. I used to like these because they helped me pathologize others. From the outside they make a lot of sense. They validated my sense that disordered traits are like blobs of ink on a pallet to mix in a multitude of ways. Now, Millon doesn't appeal to me. I identify with the different N subtypes to a large extent. I can lean into the various subtypes. The same principles apply to why I would manifest my personality in those directions. It might depend on stage of the narcissistic cycle (Vaknin's term) I'm in.

I think there are as many subtypes as there are narcissists. But the Fragile Narcissist is by far the most interesting type of all. And the most misunderstood by the anti narc community. Right, let's start at the bottom of the spectrum and work up.

Mild Narcissists: Counter Dependent & Codependent, healthy consciences, don't rage, some empathy. Typical doctor, actor, executive, politician.

Borderline Narcissists: Counter Dependent & Codependent, punitive to weak conscience, rage, targeted empathy. Fragile and High Level types. Some are successful people if they have the right breaks in life, talents or are in happy marriages.

Grandiose Narcissists: Until recently the only ones that would qualify for the NPD label. Can be successful people but have little empathy and poor relationships. They are still easy to deal with if you know how to!

Twistedmister wrote:I imagine the root cause must be power. It's probably just more easily expressable as love or fear of loss etc.....but really it's all about control.

It's just more logical from an evolutionary/cosmological standpoint.

Love/connections based on morality/worth is just an abstract notion that exists only in the advanced mind of humans and other animals with neocortexes.

The pursuit of power (control) exists however in all forms of life.....life, seems to just be what matter becomes when conditons are right. (leave all beliefs in goodness and souls at the door please) and in essence in all forms of matter. (all things adapt to the forces put upon them)

So the root cause of PD's or really anything infact, is just an objects attempt to control it's situation.

Whether you're a person looking for someone to love you or a virus looking for a host to attach to, you're essentially just doing what the collection of matter you are, has been always doing from day one. (even before day one, when time hadn't existed yet)

THe problem with PD's, is that we have people without PD's to compare ourselves to. If every person on the planet and every person who had always been on the planet, all had BPD or OCD or whatever, then it wouldn't be a disorder. It'd just be the way people are.

THe problem for people with "maladaptive" disorders.....is that people with out those disorders are (generally) and always have been the authors of what adaptive is.

Our ideas about romance/love/truth/morality........all have come from a society/culture with generally the same sort of values/modes of identification etc........

If every t.v. show you watched your whole life and every book you read and every song you listened to and every relationship you witnessed was authored by and made for two people with BPD....then you wouldn't think your BPD was somehow flawed. Rather if you didn't have BPD, you'd be on a website like this for people without BPD.......talking about how the stable identity and need for emotional consistency was a defence mechanism for a lack of creativity or an aversion to trauma.

(i have BPD possibly NPD...didn't know what to call it so i just wrote BPD, but i meant any PD)

THIS. This person wins the internet! If you were a woman I'd marry you.

Hello. I have only just started reading up on Personality Disorders and it’s a lot to take in, so I am hoping that if I am starting on the wrong thread some kind soul will point me in the right direction. What has brought me here is that I’ve been thinking for a long time now that there is something not quite right about my partner. I have been with him for two years now and the first year was amazingly romantic but the second year has been a nightmare. I am hoping that if I can describe his personality here, someone might be able to tell me if I am on the right track: He seems to be highly sensitive, scared of rejection, switches from being vain to having no confidence at all, makes constant promises and never fulfils them, lacks empathy, self-centred, has a gambling problem, alcohol addiction (which he denies on both accounts), thinks he is always right, blames everyone else for anything he does wrong, has even blamed his mother and sister and set them up just to cover his own back, lives beyond his means, borrowed money left right and centre and is now up for fraud. Yet he is very popular, has a fantastic funny personality, everyone covers for him because they like him and don’t want to upset him. However he avoids confrontation, defuses arguments in the pub, never fights and when he is hurt or humiliated he just storms off and slams the door. I sometimes think he has no feelings and then I think he is extremely sensitive and feel sorry for him. He has never spoken a bad word to me nor has he ever insulted me or tried to control me. If anything he desperately wants my admiration and I seem to be the only one that he will say sorry to and promise to make amends (but still he never keeps his promises). I have only just found out about the money borrowing and his eminent court case, but he doesn’t know I know and now he is avoiding seeing me but still messages me every day telling me he loves me. He keeps saying he will see me and then he makes an excuse not to. I have read that there is no cure for narcissism and that you should just throw the towel in and run away from them or they will drag you down with them. The problem is, I am very close to his mum and she loves him to bits too and I feel if I just give up on him I am giving up on her too. If there is hope and I can help then I will, but not at the cost of him hurting my own lovely family like he has hurt his. I would like to know what people here think. Is he a narcissist, and if so, what kind? Covert or overt? May be it’s not that simple.

I am pretty sure that i am covert narcissist. As a kid i cried often especialy when i get low marks in school. I cried very often and as a baby i saw that on some family photos. As a kid was extremely hypersensitive,very anxious especialy about money,with very low self esteem,often dream about army,had fantasies about army,police,often had many worries in head.

Low vocabulary,when i was trying to talk people didnt undersand some my word,or i could not express exactly my feeling or what i wanted to say,and sometimes some people would tell me rude things. They would say i dont know to talk or that i am not for some job that required working with people.

Once a time i told one psychiatrist that i want to be a soldier. He told me you,you are uncapable for life,commander to send you to forest you would not know to survive.

I have some vivid memories as a very young kid when i was about 3 years old and had some nighmares about some old man coming to mi with crazy face and i remember that i was in shock and i was talking my parent look bug bug in corner of wall but that they didnt see bug and that was my delusion.

The standard classification system is pretty worthless.

Grandiose vs vulnerable, covert vs overt. These descriptors mostly apply to different behavior patterns in narcissists that are dictated by the environment the narcissist finds themself in, rather than fundamentally different types of character. The same person might easily traverse from e.g. vulnerable to grandiose with an improved standing in life, winning the lottery perhaps. So these distinctions aren't telling anyone much about the type of narc they're dealing with. Is the narc in question likely to respond to some initiative with physical violence, for example.

Only the Tudor classification system can do that with some degree of reliability.

Most narcs are Lesser or Midrange in the Tudor system, and all of those are unaware. The Lessers are by far the most likely to resort to violence, for that matter. Then there are the Greaters, who are aware and by far the most skilled operators, especially when acting through others.

Yes and when in this incredibly annoying preview mode over and done with? I waiting up to 48 hours for my messages to appear.