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B+W thinking in society

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Re: B+W thinking in society

Postby justonemoreperson » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:27 am

HSS wrote:People think that morality and ethics are instruments of love and empathy, but they are actually the opposite.
The reign of what we call “evilness” begins where we aren't able to love anymore, where we stop empathizing and understanding one's motivations.
Morality was created to justify that we can't love everything, and to confine things that overstep our capacity for love in a delimited area, the area of disidentification, whose things “do not belong me”.
I am aware that I am not very different, I am not able to love everything, and I feel the need to protect myself through judgment, but at least I understand that morality is opposed to love.


It's an interesting thought, but it's important to see where these ideas of morality came from, which is early society.

Morals began when behaviour was categorised for general acceptance, based on rules for the 'common good', mainly through politics and religion.

In religion, these became reasonably vague, siting examples such as "love thy neighbour" and "treat everyone as you would have them treat you" etc.

In that respect I agree with your comment: that they're in place to stop people thinking on their own. "I don't need to think about how I feel about x, because I've been told the 'right' way to think."

But here's where it falls apart...

Morality is, or should be, very simple. Do whatever you like, as long as it doesn't impact those around you. This was the basis for democracy, and is the main mantra for the people living in Province Town, MA (USA) as this place was the first to sign up for democracy. They celebrate living this basic rule.

But it's not a basic rule anymore. It's been twisted and turned by nuance, with groups of people, desperate for recognition, twisting certain aspects of morality to disproportionate importance, so that they become defining aspects of their "belief" and everyone who doesn't agree is an enemy; ironically the opposite of what they're supposed to stand for.

We'd be better off without enforced morality, because most people with more than half a brain can work out what helps others and what doesn't.

Morality and ethics are simply instruments of control.
I'm not arguing; I'm explaining why I'm right.
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Re: B+W thinking in society

Postby HSS » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:14 am

Maybe I am missing your point, or you missed my point. Not sure that I understand.

justonemoreperson wrote:it's important to see where these ideas of morality came from.


Ok.

In that respect I agree with your comment: that they're in place to stop people thinking on their own. "I don't need to think about how I feel about x, because I've been told the 'right' way to think."


Not that I disagree, but it wasn't the point of my post...

Morality is, or should be, very simple. Do whatever you like, as long as it doesn't impact those around you.


This is very reasonable, but it's not simple from my pov. Sometimes we have strong feelings and pulses, that aren't “liked” and impact others, but we need them to defend ourselves emotionally. We aren't just rational beings and it's not always immediate to understand what is “right” or “wrong” during emotional conflicts. For example, just happened to me: someone does you wrong, acting in a way that hurts you – after that you asked several times “do not act like this!”. You react with anger, you are pissed off and show it. Then you are answered that you get mad too much easily, and that this is not your “true personality". Nope? I thought that it's a manipulation, how do you know my “true personality”? I take it that way, at least. I was even angrier after that answer, I have been silent for now 'though. I think that the other's behaviour impacted me, and I assume that he thinks that my behaviour impacted him. It's just an emotional conflict, I needed to impact him to defend myself, and it's possible that he needed it to defend himself. Then I don't know.

Morality should be simple, but human beings aren't simple, and then morality becomes intricated.

Morality and ethics are simply instruments of control.


Agreed. But we need to control something, because we can't accept and love it. If you love something, you feel good with it, by consequence you don't need to change and control it.
That's why we have different friends, and we appreciate different qualities in people. I love some aspects in my friends' temperament, that other people hate. I adore those aspects.

Am I missing or misunderstanding your point 'though?
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Re: B+W thinking in society

Postby justonemoreperson » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:32 am

HSS wrote:Am I missing or misunderstanding your point 'though?


I think the issue is that you're relating a personal experience and I was talking generally.

Your example isn't about moralising though; it's about shifting the focus from the issue to your behaviour, and is a mechanism to manipulate by clouding the original discussion.
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Re: B+W thinking in society

Postby HSS » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:19 am

justonemoreperson wrote:I think the issue is that you're relating a personal experience and I was talking generally.

Your example isn't about moralising though; it's about shifting the focus from the issue to your behaviour, and is a mechanism to manipulate by clouding the original discussion.


About my personal experience: thank you very much Jomp, sincerely. Your lucidity is very helpful.

However, what I wrote about morality isn't influenced by my experience, it's my thought since many years.

Generally writing, I would like to add this:
I agree that morality is an instrument of control, because you say people what they can or can't do, and even how they can or can't BE (and that is horrible: who are you to establish rules for others' way of being?).

But morality is more than this: morality allows you to act badly, towards those who are labeled as wrong or bad, without feeling guilt. Death penalty. War against the totalitarian nation. For many people, you would be allowed to kill someone who raped and killed your wife... and it's obviously a human behaviour. But morality doesn't say that it's a human weakness that we can understand, without judging it. Morality establishes that it's “right”, “allowed” and “good”.

Be the kind of person that I want, or I am allowed to hate and punish you. That's morality.
Without morality, you would try to control someone that is threatening you, you would hate him the same. Surely it wouldn't be a wonderful world, unless we learn to be stronger and smarter, and then to avoid some behaviours... but at least you wouldn't receive a social reward for your punishment.
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Re: B+W thinking in society

Postby justonemoreperson » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:16 am

I think the issue is more fundamental than that; people don't know what they believe or how they feel, so they take comfort in mass-thinking.

If you ask someone if they're racist, for example. They won't stand back and think about their behaviour towards others and consider the environmental factors of their upbringing, social and personal situation. They'll react to the statement within a framework of media definition: "racism is wrong and anyone who hints that they might be racist should be hated and despised".

But the truth is that racism is more subtle than that, and in some cases encouraged. Patriotism is a form of racism, where you hold your own nation in more esteem than that of another. A lot of ex-soldiers I know are racist and have been conditioned to be so.

In Johannesburg, South Africa you have to be racist, because if you don't build an electric fence around your house to "keep da blicks out" then they'll come into your house and kill you.

I have an Indian friend, and he knows I'm racist. Not in the obvious, media-inspired way, but because I grew up in a household where my father was racist and it was considered acceptable and his mother had black servants. So, when the "Pakis" moved in over the road, my father's attitude was apparent and learned.

I treat my black, brown and yellow friends differently. Not intentionally, and I deal with it by being openly racist with them, so that they do the same back and it takes the air out of the balloon. However, if anyone overhears our conversations, they often react according to how they've been conditioned. They get offended, but offended by what?

I know this has got a bit off-topic, but this is the main issue with damaging thinking that shows itself in people's attachment to morals without context.

I'm guessing that the person in your example got backed into a corner by what you said and, instead of listening to respond, he listened to react, and did what everyone does when they're faced with a complex issue: they latch onto known morals: "I don't know how to defend my position, but shouting is wrong, so I'll focus on that."

I guess I'm agreeing with your earlier point, but the fundamental problem is that thinking is too hard for most.

You've only got to look at the Black Lives Matter protests that are going on now. Laughably ironic that BLM is putting high-risk people together in mass protests because they care about their lives. Two weeks from now they'll be rioting because too many black people are dying from Covid-19.
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Re: B+W thinking in society

Postby Jonna » Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:08 pm

Esmoke wrote:I’d say that narcs thinking they care more than anyone else is more common than what we think. A good example is your common virtue signaling “Karen” she champions every social justice cause known to man annoyingly so and will attack anyone who has a different view point but at the same time wouldn’t really lift a finger to actually do anything, unless of course they bring their phone with a fresh battery and take plenty of video and selfies to later post on instagram and Facebook. They care about how this makes them look not the actual causes themselves. They can’t make the distinction in their minds


Morality and social justice can certainly be exploited for profit through sensationalism and an entrepreneurial-like approach. Louis Farrakhan for example amassed an army of wealth and power as little more than a moral entrepreneur for the Nation of Islam. Makes for good theater.
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Re: B+W thinking in society

Postby voidance » Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:56 pm

@JOMP, for someone who doesn't live here - you sound like you live in Parkhurst...

In South Africa you are raised TO be racist.

Anyways - you are brought up to think in black and white terms in our society because that's the populace control.

We can label emotions as much as anybody wants to but everything falls to either being endorphins, adrenalin or other stress hormones.

It's so easy to get people worked up because that's the way they have been conditioned.

They will easily go along with anything without question if it's a cause they agree with but will argue to the bitter end when something contradicts their own beliefs.

It's a society that feeds off your highs and lows to play off greed and fear. You cannot have that kind of society without black and white thinking.

We are simply not an objective society. If we were, we would realise that not everything is extreme. You can be prejudiced without being racist and that's more grey scale and not absolute enough for people to understand these days.

-- Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:59 pm --

I think I was browsing another topic and you (jomp) mentioned that eliciting an emotional response is a better way to really get to know somebody quickly and polarized thinking feeds into that.
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Re: B+W thinking in society

Postby HSS » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:40 pm

justonemoreperson wrote:I think the issue is more fundamental than that; people don't know what they believe or how they feel, so they take comfort in mass-thinking.


the fundamental problem is that thinking is too hard for most.


I understand better right now.
I understand you writing that morality and consciousness are interconnected. Good point.

Only that cause and effect are inverted in my experience.
You wrote once that people invert your inner dynamics, so perhaps it's different for you. I don't know...
However, for myself: at the beginning, you are natural, you are who you are. Then, moral rules. You are a child and need adults around you, but some aspects of your nature aren't accepted by society. You can't change your nature, but you have the power to increase or decrease your insight. Then you hide from yourself what it's socially condamned, because it's dangerous for your survival.

In my experience, our blindness results from social morality (technically, it results from our fear and attachment, interacting with external morality). We aren't looking for morality because we are blind, blindness comes later. Morality creates an inner censorship (and an external censorship too).
We decrease self-knowledge, so that we can anticipate the external ostracism. But this “inner judge” isn't entirely bad for us: basically it's our mimetic defense against external morality and the danger it represents.

*For example, when people say: "I am not racist" because racism is condemned, but they have some racist behaviour, their inner censorship is operating, because they fear social ostracism. Moreover it's internalized and they can fear their self judgment. The inner censorship prevents and stops introspection, because they could discover something that it's dangerous because of social structure.

However, it's not very important to establish what it comes the first. It's true that consciousness and morality are connected.

You've only got to look at the Black Lives Matter protests that are going on now. Laughably ironic that BLM is putting high-risk people together in mass protests because they care about their lives. Two weeks from now they'll be rioting because too many black people are dying from Covid-19.


yes, that's my opinion too... :lol:
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Re: B+W thinking in society

Postby Esmoke » Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:16 pm

I’m getting to the point where I don’t really believe in racial harmony anymore, it’s certainly not the intention of the lame stream media in my opinion they discovered just how much of a big hot button issue it is in certain areas and is just exploiting that in any way they can. Keeps them relevant because let’s face it with social media, internet search engines even YouTube you can find the answers to anything and everything we really don’t even need the press and they know that so they are stoking the racial Injustice flames as much as they can.

I have been with black women and took their kids out to get ice cream or whatever and I will say the $#%^ you hear from random white people is an eye opener I can only imagine if I were black how that would effect me so I do get it, I think there is genetic Component to this, I think it was humans survival instincts that it’s best to destroy the other tribe and take all their land and food before they can do it to you, a different culture one that is strange to people. I think it’s against our basic instinct to accept everyone. To use a well worn term I think most people wear a mask they pretend to be accepting and tolerant but it’s a facade. Even today’s modern lefties they are accepting of everyone who votes the way they do everyone else is a piece of scumbag. It’s a joke and nobody can see their own hypocrisy. I don’t listen to very many people about anything anymore
Just another sock puppet in a dancing children’s show for the amusement of the masses
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Re: B+W thinking in society

Postby Jonna » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:26 pm

Black and white thinkers are easy to manipulate ime because their point of view on so many issues is easy to predict....due to their over-simplification of the world into easy-to-navigate dichotomies.
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