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Re: The BPD forum is going downhill so here I am...

Postby justonemoreperson » Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:32 pm

HSS wrote:
Words/thoughts play a big role on this, on boredom. We write, think, read “a balloon”: the word is the same, but in practice you see a different object each time, and even when it's the same balloon, there is easily something different in it, something that changed. Then I think, it's interesting looking for the new, discovering the existing differences even in usual repetitions, without being conditioned from words/thoughts, that are too much abstract, they give us the impression that different things are the same thing, and it becomes boring...


We detect differences more than we detect detail, as it's a survival instinct.

We need to recognise a movement in the dark more than we need to notice the detail of a tree, as movement is a potential threat.

We're conditioned to ignore consistency and focus on change, and have evolved to do this pathologically.
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Re: The BPD forum is going downhill so here I am...

Postby HSS » Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:43 pm

You are alerted by an unexpected movement in the dark forest in front of you. Carefully, you take your gun




















and your daughter comes out from the green and reaches you for a surprise lunch together.

Differences are differences. They have a neutral quality. When they are together with an unknown factor, we value and filter them through our ideas and prejudices, and then we perceive them as threatening, curious, entertaining, attracting, sad, and so on.
If you think that there is a war, influenced by your mental structure, or if there is actually a war, a change is a predictor element for a potential attack. It's also true that consistency is important to gain people's trust and that we become unsure when people suddenly change ideas, moods, or “identity”. But consistency and changes aren't incompatible. My manipulative knowledge entirely changed his identity a number of times. I was destabilized. I exchanged reality and illusions, but that doesn't imply that nobody exists under the masks. If there are movies, there is also a film maker.

In my previous post, I was talking about differences as micro-variations in usual repetitions, because they could be useful to win boredom. We eat every day: is it the same food? Every day, we are walking down the same street: is it really the same? Colors, sounds, noises, people, cars on the road, neon lights: are they the same as yesterday? It needs an effort to focus on them, but these innocuous changes are movement, through them life enters and breaks the repetition mechanism and consequently boredom.

However, in your post there are two very interesting points:

1) It sounds contradictory to me when you write that we perceive differences as a potential threat, and at the same time, you write that we need a contrast for happiness: in your perception, are changes a potential threat - then something to control or to avoid ? Or are changes an help to overcome boredom and to reach happiness? Or... both? Maybe you don't avoid risks, you have an aggressive temperament. But how do you put together the controlling attitude inducted by changes hiding a potential threat, with happiness? Aren't they opposite?

2) I find interesting, and true, the relationship that you notice between movement and conscience/perception. It's not just a question that a change is a potential threat, and then we focus our attention on it: your example about the hand shows that we need to move the hand to perceive it. It would seem that movement helps conscience to be awake, and when conscience is awake, we don't feel boredom.

3) If we link the first part of 1) “happiness needs contrast”, with 2) “movement helps conscience”, we could deduct that immobility is the main obstacle to happiness. An inner immobility, that for different temperaments have different reasons (fear, rigidity, an excessive self-defensive attitude, an inner death simulation,...).
Then when people have self-destructive behaviors (or maybe when they enjoy destruction), it would be the effort to break an inner immobility. On the other hand, we need to be cautious to break it, we need it to feel sure. It's question of equilibrium...

[Sorry, it's very long!]
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Re: The BPD forum is going downhill so here I am...

Postby justonemoreperson » Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:07 am

My point is that we have evolved to be more aware of change than consistency. Whether that change indicates a threat or not is largely irrelevant, it's just that those more tuned in to changes in the environment were quickest to react and it became a dominant trait.

Our brains are wired to focus on change, so when there is no change then we lose focus on it.

Anything that is sustained will become the norm and will lose its novelty. Happiness becomes average and the initial euphoria dwindles, to the point where you don't feel happy, you just feel normal.

It's like speed. You get more of a thrill going from 0-30 than you do travelling at 500 mph in an aircraft, because the rate of change is noticed by your body.

We need a rate of change to experience anything.

We don't care about anything in itself, only our reaction to it, so if something has been reacted to, then unless we can maintain a level of reactive events to maintain it, it will become dull.

Whether we like it or not, people need to feel miserable so that they can feel better afterwards.

Have you ever stood and stared at it, marveled at it's beauty, it's genius? Billions of people just living out their lives, oblivious. Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world. Where none suffered. Where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed that we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that as a species, human beings define their reality through misery and suffering. The perfect world was like a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this, the peak of your civilization.
- Agent Smith, The Matrix.
I'm not arguing; I'm explaining why I'm right.
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Re: The BPD forum is going downhill so here I am...

Postby HSS » Fri Mar 06, 2020 3:16 pm

There is a consolatory side in your thoughts: it's easier to accept pain, if we think that we need it to experience happiness. On the other hand they seem to imply that happiness is not enough (at least for self-destructive people, as we were writing about them).

It's undeniable that an easy life can become “dull”; the problem is about conscience. As you wrote, conscience is helped by change, and it tends to ignore what is constantly there: happiness, but also sadness, and even the constant, minimal change.

According to your posts, happiness seems like “seduction”. It would be a temporary feeling, or a “dream”, as you quoted. When we follow our desire for happiness, we are controlled by a seductive imagine. We can't really get it. If you consider happiness as the opposite of sadness, you are right.

There is another kind of happiness, similar to the pleasure of rhythm. For instance: we feel pleasure when we breathe in, and sadness when we breathe out (we are “losing” air); or it's the opposite, if we like losing control. However, we perceive two opposite sensations/feelings, and we could constantly change our mood. But we can perceive the whole breathing act, the pleasure of being aware of the movement between two moments... synthesis. Synthesis is happiness too.
We perceive life as divided in “A” and “B”, it's the way our mind works.
If we establish that “A” is desirable and “B” is disgusting, we are f*cked. We can wait for “A”, “B” will always come back. But we can perceive the synthesis and the circular movement between two poles; the movement is life and then, pleasure. It's not an idea, it's very concrete: you feel the pleasure of your presence, if things are good or not. I am not great at it, but sometimes I experienced it, then it's possible.
We are used to hyper-focus on one thing at a time to reach our goal, ignoring other things around that could bring us positive feelings too. That way we loose freedom, and develop a greater addiction and perhaps frustration. When you totally focus on a single thing, you are controlled by that thing. We should train us to a multiple focus, simultaneously: addiction, obsession, pain would decrease.

Anyway, this is perhaps a little theoretical, then I write about the first type of happiness: “A”, as opposite to “B”.

We become used to A, and we become used to B.

But after a lot of bad things, it's enough. You don't wish sh*t any more, because you understood its nature. Pain is pain. While you are passing it, you feel simply bad. Nothing fascinating. You wish that it stops.
If we are attracted by it later, it's because its memory is altered and something is added by mind. Imo, it's the “colour” of something that you lack. We are attracted by what it's not here, if it's sh*t or if it's happiness. I guess that we are everything, but we are able to see just one side at a time (as for focus); then we use external things to “find” our full identity. We have sadness and happiness on a latent state; we wish what is our potential, but it's not actual right now.

Looking for happiness or looking for destruction are the same mistake: they are temporary feelings and generate addiction; but through them, we grow until we remind our entire being, that is bigger than we imagine. After one million times, you recognize yourself in A and B: in what you believed that you aren't. Or maybe, you are so tired that you stop looking for this or that. You are “out”.

Finally: “A” is seduction, yes. My intuition is that some temperaments learn to control their attraction for “A” when they are too much young, because they learn that A is illusion, or a way to be controlled. It's good for them. Less pain.
On the other hand, we project our libido outside, and usually it's addressed to what we are hiding about ourselves. Then, if you don't allow yourself to "live" your wish, you will stay forever inside your apparent borders; if you “live” your wish, it's a way to discover that you are bigger than your self-image, until you discover how much big you really are.

That written, I firmly believe that it's a personal choice and nobody must be forced. It's delicate, and we are our best “self-regulators”. It's possible that our instinct is perfectly driving us, if we are following our wishes, or if we are protecting us.
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“Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.”
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Re: The BPD forum is going downhill so here I am...

Postby AProphet » Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:12 pm

How about unconditional happiness? being happy even if your sad. Enjoy your suffering, the buddhist's say. Jin and Jang, there is no one without the other.
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Re: The BPD forum is going downhill so here I am...

Postby justonemoreperson » Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:31 am

Yeah, it's common in most cultures to accept that good and bad have a symbiotic relationship; that you can't have one without the other.

In fact, it seems to be core to our makeup that we need to have to endure some trial or hardship to process and attach to the positive.

People appreciate things more if they've suffered to get them. Working and saving up for a new car gives more satisfaction to the individual than being given one or stealing one. They'll attach to it and take care of it more.

It's as if the hardship creates a bond to that which removes the hardship; a bond that wouldn't be there if the hardship hadn't existed.
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Re: The BPD forum is going downhill so here I am...

Postby solemnlysworn » Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:28 pm

Over the last 4 months or so I’ve become quite interested in Seligman’s PERMA model.

Positive emotion
Engagement
Relationships
Meaning
Achievement

For something to be meaningful I think most people need for it to have stakes where adversity is overcome
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Re: The BPD forum is going downhill so here I am...

Postby HSS » Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:25 pm

@AProphet: yes, Taoism is a deep observation of the living process. However, self-understanding is our common goal, for everyone, but the methods that drive to it successfully are different or opposite, according to everyone's nature and temperament. It's like homeopathy: you have to calibrate them to the interlocutor, or they don't work. :)

@Jomp: from what I can understand, in Taoism the acceptation doesn't come from a consolatory reflection, and happiness doesn't need to be the consequence of pain.
It would be conditioned: you can be happy if you firstly… (suffer, fight,...).
A → then B/ cause → effect/ … these kind of linear processes, are by an occidental culture.

Tao observes the relationship between cause (A - happiness) and effect (B - sadness) but from a third point of view (C - Happiness), that isn't placed “inside” the cause or “inside” the effect; then you experience Joy (C) while you are still experiencing pain, boredom or happiness. You stay in another region of yourself, where you aren't touched by conditioned feelings.

It's like a triangle: A and B are observed from the vertical point C (Happiness).
Are you still learning to fly? ;)
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Re: The BPD forum is going downhill so here I am...

Postby AProphet » Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:18 pm

HSS wrote:@AProphet: yes, Taoism is a deep observation of the living process. However, self-understanding is our common goal, for everyone, but the methods that drive to it successfully are different or opposite, according to everyone's nature and temperament. It's like homeopathy: you have to calibrate them to the interlocutor, or they don't work. :)


I dont know whether that is a true statement. Most people seek nor possess any self-understanding whatsoever. It is the main aim of life acording to the author I'm reading, C.G. Jung, what he calls individuation, the lifelong process of expanding awareness.

Yes, unconditional happyness. Like transcending the distinction between 'good' and 'bad' feelings, wholeness, integration, enjoying the ride we call life, its not serious, the buddha says. Dont get me wrong - trusting the universe is the hardest thing to do.
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Re: The BPD forum is going downhill so here I am...

Postby justonemoreperson » Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:16 am

@HSS

i think this is being overly complicated. I don't see that happiness causes sadness, neither does sadness cause happiness. It's not a cause and effect relationship.

It'd just that if we maintain a feeling for any length of time, good or bad, we become numb to it and need something to change.


AProphet wrote:
Yes, unconditional happyness. Like transcending the distinction between 'good' and 'bad' feelings, wholeness, integration, enjoying the ride we call life, its not serious, the buddha says. Dont get me wrong - trusting the universe is the hardest thing to do.


"Trusting the universe" is a phrase people use when they can't find a solution themselves and give up to blind faith. It's the metaphysical version of burying your head in the sand and hoping everything works out in the morning.
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