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Re: Shame

Postby justonemoreperson » Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:55 pm

Strange how you think you know what something so basic is and yet, when you examine it, you realise that it's not what you think at all.

@Wally

Taking your example of the story of Adam and Eve; they knew shame when they failed to follow the one rule. Up to that point, they would have always assumed that they'd be good and honest people.

"Shame is an unpleasant self-conscious emotion typically associated with a negative evaluation of the self, withdrawal motivations, and feelings of distress, exposure, mistrust, powerlessness, and worthlessness."

Regarding the definition above, I would say that it's not enough to have a negative view of yourself, but it needs to be a sudden realisation that you're not who you thought you were.

It's not reliant on being caught; simply the idea that you were able to do something that you thought you'd never do is enough.

It's self-indulgent, so I guess it makes sense that it's common to people with NPD.

But it does make you wonder why it exists, as it doesn't really serve any constructive purpose. Granted, in a PD it's probably extreme, but even in a healthy person, why?

It might stop you repeating a negative behaviour, but is it a negative behaviour?

You steal some cash from a homeless person, which you never thought you'd do, and you feel ashamed. Why? You're now richer and haven't been caught.

It seems to make you attempt to be a better person, but it's coincidence that your shameful behaviour is negative to you. If your behaviour had you conning money out of the elderly, shame would stop you getting rich.

It seems to be holding you back. not protecting you.

Here's the thing:

What if shame is a disorder, created by thousands of years of civilisation? Shame comes from principles and in-built rules, created to control people, through society and religion.

It was the breaking of a rule that made Adam & Eve feel ashamed, not eating a piece of fruit.

We only need shame because we live the way we do. Naturally, instinct would control our behaviour and there would be no concept of right and wrong, so nothing to create shame.

We learn shame, and anything that can be learned can be unlearned.

Manners73 wrote:I'm a bit confused when it comes to shame because on one hand I'm utterly shameless and then on the other hand I can be quite shy and guarded so there must me a certain amount.


Why do you think it's shame that makes you shy?
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Re: Shame

Postby xdude » Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:16 pm

justonemoreperson wrote:But it does make you wonder why it exists, as it doesn't really serve any constructive purpose.


This is a very good and deep question.

For me, I've long thought of emotions in terms of having two functions -

1.) There is an aspect that benefits us, an internal function. Take being angry, an emotion that some might say is useless (they are wrong, because it is under some circumstances). For example, the benefit could be it is a catalyst to take an action to protect self from harm.

2.) There is an outward facing function. A show of anger communicates that the stakes have been raised in a social interaction. The emotion is communicated to others. It might prevent further or unexpected escalation.

Those are just examples, and I could have used other emotions where there was an inward and outward benefit to each emotion, but anyway...

Many people would agree the emotion of 'shame' does exist, but it may serve no useful survival purpose to the person experiencing it other then... perhaps... that was the emotion they needed to feel and express to keep a degree of security in their lives. Dependent on a parent, or SO, it's what was demanded, and so given to keep the peace. I am just speculating of course.
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Re: Shame

Postby Manners73 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:52 pm

@JOMP I don't know why I think it's shame that makes me shy. I just thought it might be.

It's a difficult thing shame because I'm not sure what it is. If I do something that people are outraged about I just don't get it and I know they think I should feel ashamed.

Like a couple of years ago I allegedly told my managing director to ###$ off and although he let it go ages ago there are still some people who bring it up like it happened yesterday as if I should feel ashamed about it. I just don't and I can't even remember saying it.
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Re: Shame

Postby justonemoreperson » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:33 am

Manners73 wrote:@JOMP I don't know why I think it's shame that makes me shy. I just thought it might be.

It's a difficult thing shame because I'm not sure what it is. If I do something that people are outraged about I just don't get it and I know they think I should feel ashamed.

Like a couple of years ago I allegedly told my managing director to ###$ off and although he let it go ages ago there are still some people who bring it up like it happened yesterday as if I should feel ashamed about it. I just don't and I can't even remember saying it.


They're not bring it up because they feel personally offended by it, they're doing so because it's office gossip to make their day less boring.
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Re: Shame

Postby Manners73 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:13 am

Well they need to get a life then.
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Re: Shame

Postby justonemoreperson » Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:58 am

Manners73 wrote:Well they need to get a life then.


They have a life; they just choose to make it puerile and a projection of their own insecurities. The relevant question is, "why let it control how you feel?"
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Re: Shame

Postby Manners73 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:10 pm

Good question. Trying to think of an answer.

I suppose there's no real reason for it to bother me.
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Re: Shame

Postby Manners73 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:26 pm

justonemoreperson wrote:
Manners73 wrote:Well they need to get a life then.


They have a life; they just choose to make it puerile and a projection of their own insecurities. The relevant question is, "why let it control how you feel?"


I get confused about all this projection business.

I don't get it. Maybe I should stop fighting.

I'm always looking for fights and I always feel like "the ememy".

It takes a lot to convince me that I'm not.
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Re: Shame

Postby justonemoreperson » Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:54 am

Manners73 wrote:
I get confused about all this projection business.

I don't get it. Maybe I should stop fighting.

I'm always looking for fights and I always feel like "the ememy".

It takes a lot to convince me that I'm not.


You remind me of Scappy Doo; Scooby Doo's nephew. Always up for a fight, everything's looks like a confrontation. He was knee-high, so was compensating. Plus, he was a cartoon character.

I'm guessing that it's somewhat he same; that you're not expecting people to take you seriously, probably feel like a child in adult's clothes, and so use aggression to make people sit up and take notice or no one will listen.
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Re: Shame

Postby ZeroZ » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:15 pm

justonemoreperson wrote:Plus, he was a cartoon character.


Ohh, well, I’m glad you clarified that I thought for a second we had a celebrity on the forum
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