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Anyone here an entrepreneur?

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Re: Anyone here an entrepreneur?

Postby covertunsure » Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:35 pm

First of all, I want to say that a lot of people here are really smart and have great insight, so I appreciate that. :)

BTW, I think the mods should consider adding a field in the profile for diagnosis so people know where others are coming from. It does make a difference, IMO. Perspective and reference point mean a lot.

Greebo wrote:I dunno.
If he’s just going to give up when things become emotionally uncomfortable therapy isn’t going to work either. There have been plenty of people here who were more together and successful and were actually diagnosed with NPD, not just suspected of having traits. I’m not convinced all of this can be put down to the disorder.

My personal opinion is that a lot of this would probably be improved by lifestyle changes, all of which are relatively easily done. If he got his $#%^ together, developed a reasonable routine, got a job, found other things in his life to take an interest in and generally spent less time trying to stick his head up his own bum he would at the very least be in a better position to be able to endure the less comfortable consequences of tackling the narcissism. At best I suspect many of the issues would evaporate, purely on the basis of the fact that I’ve seen people get into this kind of cycle before and say much the same things as covertunsure, only to get over many of them by changing the way they lived.

Making sure I had other fun things in my life and trying not to become too one dimensional was the thing that worked best for me, it gives you back perspective. I would have thought it would be a nice thing to think about and a reasonable place to start. But at the end of the day it’s a case of whatever works.


Everything you say is probably true, but it's easier said than done. It all feels too overwhelming. Making changes, trying to date, trying to actually live a real life. It seems way too daunting. I don't even know where to start; there's too much.

Also, if it's not due to narcissism/NPD, what is it caused by? Isn't the fact I got into this directionless, existential death in the very first place likely influenced, if not caused, by a disordered personality? The fact that I blame others and don't take responsibility seems part and parcel of narcissism/personality disorder. And I feel powerless to change.

Maybe aspergers traits and the associated rigidity of routine (or lack thereof)...inertia and perseveration are also partly to blame.

justonemoreperson wrote:
Greebo wrote:A pity really, as anyone who remains in the same behavioural ruts is destined to repeat the same pattern over and over.


Agreed, although unless there's some social aspect or supply from this forum, there is a will to change, but without direction.


I'm not sure how much of a will to change there is, because changing means accepting I'm not perfect which I seem unable to do. But certainly there is no direction. There may be a social aspect or supply in a sense, since I love talking about myself but am quite lazy when it comes to actually doing anything.

Today I'm extremely angry and having homicidal thoughts about committing a mass shooting, and of course the chronic suicidal thoughts. I see no hope for my life. I feel constantly rejected and put down. I'm a failure in almost every way. I'm basically a virgin (never came before with another human, extremely sexually inhibited). I wonder if this is similar to the pattern mass shooters go through before they can't take it anymore and go forward with it. I'm not actively planning anything, just fantasizing because I'm so sick of life and the human race.

I feel I have reason to feel hopeless.

justonemoreperson wrote:This is probably the key to it all.

I tend to be more productive when I'm busy doing other stuff. When I'm home doing nothing, I just want to get stoned and watch Scooby Doo; everything I need to do is too much effort.


Yeah, I noticed this too. Definitely worse when I'm home "working," which is every freakin' day. In reality I get very little done most of the time. But the idea of getting a job after basically 10 years... *cringe* I spoke with some recruiters and I was always more excited about the idea of the job than the actual reality once I got involved in the application process.

xdude wrote:Pseudo short version of what I am thinking -

Some people obsess (and hopefully enjoy) what they are doing, and sometimes that translates into what others label being an 'entrepreneur', but not always. More on that below.

Some people obsess over being an 'entrepreneur', though don't necessarily enjoy what they are doing to achieve that goal.

One sign is that the former exhibits great enthusiasm for the means, while the later tends to show enthusiasm for 'the ends'. What the later may not get is the former types aren't seeking group approval, they are seeking personal fulfillment and sometimes sharing their passion with others.

If I was gambling, I'd wager that the former tend to be far more likely to 'succeed' than the later in the public's eye, and they absolutely do 'succeed' in their own eye because they are enjoying the process over the socially desirable outcome (e.g., wealth, power, fame, etc.).


This is so true, 100%. And so far I haven't enjoyed the process, but maybe it's because I've been working on a business that I'm not really passionate about. My main motivation for starting it was to do something on my own and make good money since you can bill quite a bit per hour in technology.

I'm not sure if I want success just for what people will think, although it may be subconscious and certainly I do care what people think, but it's not my main motivation. I want to be financially well-off and make a "dent in the universe," as Steve Jobs said. BTW, I think he was quite narcissistic, as well.
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Re: Anyone here an entrepreneur?

Postby justonemoreperson » Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:54 pm

covertunsure wrote:
I'm not sure how much of a will to change there is, because changing means accepting I'm not perfect which I seem unable to do. But certainly there is no direction. There may be a social aspect or supply in a sense, since I love talking about myself but am quite lazy when it comes to actually doing anything.


I'm not buying this. You've spent how many pages discussing how to deal with the issues you have? You do accept you're not perfect and you do have a will to change, otherwise you'd not put so much effort into talking about it. Unless you just crave the attention: possible.

It seems to me that fear is at the bottom of it; you've mentioned a few times, in so many words, how you're afraid to fail.

You need to lose the fear and the only way to do that is to face it.
I'm not arguing; I'm explaining why I'm right.
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Re: Anyone here an entrepreneur?

Postby covertunsure » Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:24 pm

justonemoreperson wrote:
covertunsure wrote:
I'm not sure how much of a will to change there is, because changing means accepting I'm not perfect which I seem unable to do. But certainly there is no direction. There may be a social aspect or supply in a sense, since I love talking about myself but am quite lazy when it comes to actually doing anything.


I'm not buying this. You've spent how many pages discussing how to deal with the issues you have? You do accept you're not perfect and you do have a will to change, otherwise you'd not put so much effort into talking about it. Unless you just crave the attention: possible.

It seems to me that fear is at the bottom of it; you've mentioned a few times, in so many words, how you're afraid to fail.

You need to lose the fear and the only way to do that is to face it.


While I guess I understand it intellectually (when I don't block it out), I don't truly, emotionally/internally accept that I'm not perfect. The evidence is that when someone isn't attracted to me or doesn't even find me good-looking, I go into panic mode because I have this expectation or feeling that everyone should find me attractive (grandiosity) or else I'm worthless and nothing.

I certainly like blabbing about myself and attention. But I guess fear is at the heart of much of it. Fear of people's judgment, fear of not being universally attractive to everyone, fear of rejection, fear of failure.

I've faced fear by approaching people I find attractive. I'm constantly rejected and it sends me into a tailspin of self-hatred, hatred of them, panic, desperation, strong suicidal and sometimes homicidal thoughts, and it ruins the next few days completely. So, like putting one's hand over a flame, I avoid it because it's incredibly painful. I'm not sure how else to face fear. I've done stand-up comedy too, In part to face my fears. Nothing seems to work, compounded by the fact I don't stick with anything consistently for very long.

Life seems way too hard and completely futile.
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Re: Anyone here an entrepreneur?

Postby Greebo » Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:26 pm

covertunsure wrote:Everything you say is probably true, but it's easier said than done. It all feels too overwhelming. Making changes, trying to date, trying to actually live a real life. It seems way too daunting. I don't even know where to start; there's too much.
I doubt the realisation that life isn’t easy will come as a shock to anyone but yourself. And who said anything about dating? What we’re all talking about is far more fundamental than that.

Also, if it's not due to narcissism/NPD, what is it caused by? Isn't the fact I got into this directionless, existential death in the very first place likely influenced, if not caused, by a disordered personality? The fact that I blame others and don't take responsibility seems part and parcel of narcissism/personality disorder. And I feel powerless to change.
Being craven, self-indulgent and lazy for the most part. You’re in this situation because every second of every day it’s where you choose to be. Failure neither requires nor is the inevitable consequence of a personality disorder.

As has been pointed out to you at least twice, there is nothing wrong with you which is so much worse than that wrong with anyone else.
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Re: Anyone here an entrepreneur?

Postby covertunsure » Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:36 pm

Greebo wrote:
covertunsure wrote:Everything you say is probably true, but it's easier said than done. It all feels too overwhelming. Making changes, trying to date, trying to actually live a real life. It seems way too daunting. I don't even know where to start; there's too much.
I doubt the realisation that life isn’t easy will come as a shock to anyone but yourself. And who said anything about dating? What we’re all talking about is far more fundamental than that.


I'm talking about dating, as romantic and sexual relationships are perhaps the most important (or one of the most important) parts of life, and I'm entirely lacking in either. I think it causes me the most distress of anything. How is anything more fundamental than that?

Also, if it's not due to narcissism/NPD, what is it caused by? Isn't the fact I got into this directionless, existential death in the very first place likely influenced, if not caused, by a disordered personality? The fact that I blame others and don't take responsibility seems part and parcel of narcissism/personality disorder. And I feel powerless to change.

Being craven, self-indulgent and lazy for the most part. You’re in this situation because every second of every day it’s where you choose to be. Failure neither requires nor is the inevitable consequence of a personality disorder.

As has been pointed out to you at least twice, there is nothing wrong with you which is so much worse than that wrong with anyone else.


"You choose to be here." Show me where I signed on the dotted line.

Isn't self-indulgence and cravenness part and parcel of vulnerable narcissism? Lol.

The only path I choose, like most humans, is to avoid pain. The pain of going outside and being ignored and rejected, and of people not thinking I'm perfect, is something I don't know how to conquer and something that, at this point, after many years of the same thing over and over, seems unconquerable. I don't feel I have the means to change. I've done things differently for a few days or a week and always fall back into the same pattern. It just seems hopeless. I'm tired of everything.

You make everything sound so simple and cut and dry. If it were, I would have changed by now.
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Re: Anyone here an entrepreneur?

Postby ZeroZ » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:18 pm

Reminds me soo much of conversations I’ve had with borderlines on here. Circular logic all leading back to defeat, so the answer obviously is to not do anything but complain.
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Re: Anyone here an entrepreneur?

Postby realityhere » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:30 pm

"As has been pointed out to you at least twice, there is nothing wrong with you which is so much worse than that wrong with anyone else."

I don't know if this will help put some things in perspective or not.

I have a relative who cannot hold a job, cannot walk or talk in coherent sentences, cannot do the basics of everyday grooming, cannot read or write, cannot feed himself, and has lived the last twenty years of his life in a wheelchair due to the debilitating effects of treatment for a brain tumor. He had no choice over what happened to him.

No, I'm not saying that my relative has it way worse than you or anyone else--I'm in awe of the fact that he has survived so much and is still alive. I guess what I'm trying to say is, one never knows what the body will do, but regard the fact that you have a brain, however disordered it may be, that is capable of doing many things.
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Re: Anyone here an entrepreneur?

Postby justonemoreperson » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:26 pm

covertunsure wrote:
I'm talking about dating, as romantic and sexual relationships are perhaps the most important (or one of the most important) parts of life, and I'm entirely lacking in either. I think it causes me the most distress of anything. How is anything more fundamental than that?


You're not ready for it. A relationship is not basic; sex is basic. A relationship is a highly complex social contract, requiring compromise, selfless behaviour, consistency, commitment and everything else that a narcissist resists. It can be done, but you're not ready to inflict yourself on anyone yet.

A job is the first step; it puts you in a position where you have a social contract with the people you work with and teaches rudimentary commitment, loyalty and discipline.

If you want to spend the rest of your life complaining that you can't do stuff, go for it. But, if you want to do more than self-indulgent whining, rethink.

You make choices all the time. You follow social guidelines for interacting here with us, and do so following rules. Saying you can't is incorrect.

If you were scared of spiders you wouldn't throw yourself into a bath full of spiders, you'd start small and work your way up.

Personally, I don't think you want to improve; you get more comfort from being disabled.
I'm not arguing; I'm explaining why I'm right.
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Re: Anyone here an entrepreneur?

Postby covertunsure » Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:48 am

ZeroZ wrote:Reminds me soo much of conversations I’ve had with borderlines on here. Circular logic all leading back to defeat, so the answer obviously is to not do anything but complain.


Well, if it sheds any light, I've been told I have "borderline personality organization" (a term coined by Otto Kernberg and underlying BPD, most cases of NPD, and any number of other severe personality disorders) and have significant BPD traits, but yet again, don't meet the criteria for the full disorder. Apparently I don't meet the full criteria for ANY disorder, which is actually quite frustrating. I'm in a constant state of limbo and nebulousness.

realityhere wrote:"As has been pointed out to you at least twice, there is nothing wrong with you which is so much worse than that wrong with anyone else."

I don't know if this will help put some things in perspective or not.

I have a relative who cannot hold a job, cannot walk or talk in coherent sentences, cannot do the basics of everyday grooming, cannot read or write, cannot feed himself, and has lived the last twenty years of his life in a wheelchair due to the debilitating effects of treatment for a brain tumor. He had no choice over what happened to him.

No, I'm not saying that my relative has it way worse than you or anyone else--I'm in awe of the fact that he has survived so much and is still alive. I guess what I'm trying to say is, one never knows what the body will do, but regard the fact that you have a brain, however disordered it may be, that is capable of doing many things.


Wow, that's pretty awful. I know there are people worse off than me as I see it every day in my city. I've tried putting things into perspective like that, but it doesn't really help.

I hope your relative somehow makes improvement. There have been a number stories of people suddenly making significant improvements out of nowhere, I think.

justonemoreperson wrote:You're not ready for it. A relationship is not basic; sex is basic. A relationship is a highly complex social contract, requiring compromise, selfless behaviour, consistency, commitment and everything else that a narcissist resists. It can be done, but you're not ready to inflict yourself on anyone yet.

A job is the first step; it puts you in a position where you have a social contract with the people you work with and teaches rudimentary commitment, loyalty and discipline.

If you want to spend the rest of your life complaining that you can't do stuff, go for it. But, if you want to do more than self-indulgent whining, rethink.

You make choices all the time. You follow social guidelines for interacting here with us, and do so following rules. Saying you can't is incorrect.

If you were scared of spiders you wouldn't throw yourself into a bath full of spiders, you'd start small and work your way up.

Personally, I don't think you want to improve; you get more comfort from being disabled.


Just to be fully honest, I am quite stressed out posting in this thread/forum right now. I feel like I'm being attacked and criticized and told what I've been told my entire life. "Just man up", "stop being lazy", etc. etc. It hasn't helped so it seems unlikely it will help at this point either. (Also, not that you did anything wrong, but you remind me of my father right now in how he thinks and phrases things.)

I know that relationships aren't basic, but my point is, I can't even have SEX. I am that ######6 inhibited and anxious around people. This and more are why I feel zero hope. Everything is too ######6 stressful and daunting. It'd be one thing if I could go out and pick up someone at the bar or on an app, but I can't because I'm a ######6 pussy who can't handle rejection or accepting who he is.

BTW, Dr. Otto Kernberg, who pioneered a lot of research into BPD/NPD, maintains that treating people with sexual inhibitions, for some unknown reason, is much harder than treating people with sexual promiscuity.
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Re: Anyone here an entrepreneur?

Postby realityhere » Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:57 am

covertunsure,

I get that you value a close romantic/sexual relationship over other things such as a career/job, money, other materialistic objectives. That human connection is primary and important to us humans all.

However, we all have to provide value to a relationship besides love, connection, and caring. If we can provide financial and well-being comfort to another, not to mention for any offspring that results from an intimate relationship or adopted otherwise, all the better. The rewards from doing so are immense and satisfying. Having a relationship is not all about you, but about the two become one which extends to children, if that be the case. It's something bigger than yourself.

I wonder if, with your limited preoccupation with your looks and yourself, that you can even extend your love of self to another. Just my thoughts and it's not to demean your disorder or capacities.
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