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Destructive label

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Re: Destructive label

Postby Akuma » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:38 am

Staying with the topic a bit what I've found in the past half a year or so is that you can really describe mental disorders with lots of different words that essentially point towards the same thing. Every personality disorder for example is essentially a narcissistic disorder, a schizoid disorder can be explained via dissociation, a borderline disorder via lack of mentalization, more specifically narcissistic personality disorder can be explained by schizoid mechanisms, different PDs can be abstracted to attachment-styles and so forth. So without a clear understanding of the underlying principles using the terms is pointless and is destructive in another way, because it actually hinders and destroys understanding.
I've recently suggested the book "Adult Children Of Emotionally Immature Parents" here, which I think is a pretty good read and can kickstart a better understanding about what about oneself is actually pathological and what one might just think is pathological because one has been [faultily] programmed to believe so - and where such ideas come from in one's past. Lots of stuff in that book could be abstracted by labels from the DSM. But doing so would create an unnecessary distance between the actual experience of abuse, neglect, about not feeling understood, about feeling used or feeling like one always has to cater to others needs etc and the ways one has learnt to deal with that. But without those concrete connections everyday experiences might lack context - and putting them into a [possibly misunderstood] abstract context of a DSM diagnosis feels just like another veil really, not like something that actually helps.
dx: dissociative disorder + npd
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Re: Destructive label

Postby ViniStonemoss » Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:20 pm

Akuma wrote: But doing so would create an unnecessary distance between the actual experience of abuse, neglect, about not feeling understood, about feeling used or feeling like one always has to cater to others needs etc and the ways one has learnt to deal with that.


Personally, I have found labels very helpful. I love putting stuffs into boxes, then shuffling their content just to see what it does.

But also labels are gross. They're just those gross boxes that accommodate really few people. So in the end, what I find useful is the back and forth between the label and my reality. I find equally useful to find the similarities between my experiences and the experiences a label is supposed to describe and to discriminate against the label (either experiences that the label encapsulate that don't match my reality or because we're so much more than a label)

One thing that I have not found useful (like ever) is redefining the label.

Akuma wrote:But without those concrete connections everyday experiences might lack context - and putting them into a [possibly misunderstood] abstract context of a DSM diagnosis feels just like another veil really, not like something that actually helps.


What a label does to me is providing a end goal. What state am I supposed to be in when I have squeezed everything I could out of label.

I don't know how to get there until I get there: it's just a fog of war. But its' only, by switching back and forth between the macro lens (labels) and the micro lens (everyday experiences), that I can elaborate strategy to defeat my unhealthy coping mechanisms.

That's just my method, but I know it works.

P.S. the book you're reading sounds interesting...
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Re: Destructive label

Postby AProphet » Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:21 am

Narcissistic means you dont understand that other people exist. Only the narcissist exists and has thoughts. Its a very specific term for a very specific mental disorder. Ill help you becouse you still dont understand that, arguing wheter the 'labeling' should be done becouse it can offend someone.
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Re: Destructive label

Postby SelfSerf » Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:03 pm

AProphet wrote:Narcissistic means you dont understand that other people exist. Only the narcissist exists and has thoughts. Its a very specific term for a very specific mental disorder. Ill help you becouse you still dont understand that, arguing wheter the 'labeling' should be done becouse it can offend someone.


12345

Going more consciously ASPD is almost like a superpower. Where you actually feel that other. Garden variety NPD sure felt better though. Expexting people to treat you favourably yet being unaware of it probably made me look like a fool before but at least that was like being a holy fool. Now, being very aware of the reasons for being diferent is a whole other ballgame. I don’t like freaking people out with my boldness...
“Should I kill myself, or have a cup of coffee?”
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Re: Destructive label

Postby SelfSerf » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:02 pm

Sorry, missed finishing this sentence on the phone.
SelfSerf wrote:Going more consciously ASPD is almost like a superpower. Where you actually don´t care that other people exist but are sharply aware that you have to play the game of make believe with them.

I vaguely understand that the gist of this topic was perhaps more point out more specifically the idea that any label stuck onto someone can be destructive and boxes one in. Which is especially true with this disorder. I remember when I first started looking it up to understand what was wrong with me and it was like a revelation but not in the good sense. It made perfect sense once but it was like cognitive dissonance. I just couldn´t believe I could be the one doing all the bad that I interpreted as others being the cause of. For a second my world crumbled, I was afraid of going out or meeting anyone. I finally understood that I am the bad one but the irony of course is I literally could not fathom it before.

But I wouldn´t argue the label itself. I mean, of course every person is on a narcissistic spectrum somewhere. It is after-all a healthy trait to have. If you don´t have any you might not make it in this world at all. With respect to the greek mythos, it makes perfect sense. Those on the extreme narcissism end of the scale literally might literally be incapable of acknowledging other people´s existence. They are the center of the universe and share it with others only on their own terms. A perfect reflection is needed and anyone that does not supply that reflection gets tossed aside as non-fitting into this (the narcissist´s) universe.
“Should I kill myself, or have a cup of coffee?”
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Re: Destructive label

Postby ZeroZ » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:04 pm

I wonder under what circumstances this label is officially applied to your medical history. My original diagnosis was under oath and a condition of release from jail. My subsequent “diagnosis” which were more like a discussion rather than a hard and fast diagnosis, and possibly influenced by my past diagnosis. I’ll probably never been seen through a different lens and that is fine.

Under what other circumstances are NPDs diagnosed? Complaints from a SO maybe Of repeated reports of grandiose behavior? Trouble in the work environment, sent in for being difficult and arrogant? Most likely a psych ward stay? I don’t think most psychologist will give this label under voluntary therapy sessions, they may treat you for the condition maybe talk about it but what purpose does the actual label serve
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Re: Destructive label

Postby AProphet » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:52 am

SelfSerf wrote:
AProphet wrote:Narcissistic means you dont understand that other people exist. Only the narcissist exists and has thoughts. Its a very specific term for a very specific mental disorder. Ill help you becouse you still dont understand that, arguing wheter the 'labeling' should be done becouse it can offend someone.


12345

Going more consciously ASPD is almost like a superpower. Where you actually feel that other. Garden variety NPD sure felt better though. Expexting people to treat you favourably yet being unaware of it probably made me look like a fool before but at least that was like being a holy fool. Now, being very aware of the reasons for being diferent is a whole other ballgame. I don’t like freaking people out with my boldness...


First part. 12345 is like 'bingo' or what did you mean realy xD.

Second Part. Why the link with ASPD all of a sudden? and about feeling ASPD? They have no empathy eaither. Garden variety NPD? Meaning pre self-awareness?

-- Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:01 am --

SelfSerf wrote:Sorry, missed finishing this sentence on the phone.
SelfSerf wrote:Going more consciously ASPD is almost like a superpower. Where you actually don´t care that other people exist but are sharply aware that you have to play the game of make believe with them.

I vaguely understand that the gist of this topic was perhaps more point out more specifically the idea that any label stuck onto someone can be destructive and boxes one in. Which is especially true with this disorder. I remember when I first started looking it up to understand what was wrong with me and it was like a revelation but not in the good sense. It made perfect sense once but it was like cognitive dissonance. I just couldn´t believe I could be the one doing all the bad that I interpreted as others being the cause of. For a second my world crumbled, I was afraid of going out or meeting anyone. I finally understood that I am the bad one but the irony of course is I literally could not fathom it before.

But I wouldn´t argue the label itself. I mean, of course every person is on a narcissistic spectrum somewhere. It is after-all a healthy trait to have. If you don´t have any you might not make it in this world at all. With respect to the greek mythos, it makes perfect sense. Those on the extreme narcissism end of the scale literally might literally be incapable of acknowledging other people´s existence. They are the center of the universe and share it with others only on their own terms. A perfect reflection is needed and anyone that does not supply that reflection gets tossed aside as non-fitting into this (the narcissist´s) universe.


I dont understand, that Is not what you wrote. But this made a lot of sence. Only the narcissist exists and has thoughts. Other people do what the narcissist has planned for them in his script. My script was hates love and loves to be hated. Or he gets narcissistic injury. He must be infallible and is insufferable to all the other people. He is self hating and has dissociative process in his psyche, so he cant understand what he is doing, no matter how many times he thinks about it. You shift reality as it needs be, create it yourself, a fundamentally detached, psychotic worldwiev. Which treats others as objects to be expolited for supply, not consciouss agents.
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Re: Destructive label

Postby AProphet » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:02 pm

SelfSerf wrote:But I wouldn´t argue the label itself. I mean, of course every person is on a narcissistic spectrum somewhere. It is after-all a healthy trait to have. If you don´t have any you might not make it in this world at all. With respect to the greek mythos, it makes perfect sense. Those on the extreme narcissism end of the scale literally might literally be incapable of acknowledging other people´s existence. They are the center of the universe and share it with others only on their own terms. A perfect reflection is needed and anyone that does not supply that reflection gets tossed aside as non-fitting into this (the narcissist´s) universe.


Arguing about spectra is beside the point. Pathological narcissism IS exactly that. IS incapability to aknowledge another persons existance and thoughts, not in some poetic sence, you make up the person.
Reality never an impediment. You invent the people and all their reasons for why they do things as your self-esteem regulation requires
. This is what makes pathological narcissism something entirely different, and a well defined category, amongst PD's.
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Re: Destructive label

Postby covertunsure » Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:11 pm

ZeroZ wrote:The way I understand it is it’s simply a denial of your true self, your true feelings, emotions, and needs. As they were taught at a young age that they were inappropriate or not up to standard so the child buries these feelings and desires deep down along with their needs and feelings that most people have to guide them.

Instead they learn to create an image of what people want to see, they want to be accepted and feel like they are good but at the expense of their own emotional and ‘spiritual’ health as their true needs and desires are not being heard. I was punished for dancing when I was young, it was seen as foolish so I was humiliated by putting me on display outside like a monkey to perform for strangers while I was being observed to make sure I did it the same. I still to this day cannot dance in public. I never made this connection except recently through therapy. So something I was so free and open with is now a buried fear, that I hide from everyone except you nice people. Anyway that’s what it means to me, people are so different that it’s truelly individual


There have been some studies that have shown that narcissism is one of--if not the most--heritable personality traits. And at least one study showed that grandiosity and entitlement, specifically, are moderately heritable and are not related to each other, which is very interesting. So I believe it's clear that it's a mix of environment and genetics: we were conditioned that we weren't good enough, not necessarily by parents but by peers, teachers, anyone that could have had an influence. This would be combined with a hypersensitive temperament (some would argue "over"-sensitive, as it's maladaptive, but we have no control over it) and genetic susceptibility to narcissism and/or borderline traits, and voila, the dice is rolled and a narcissist is either made or not made. Or, perhaps a narcissistically oriented or traited person can be made, even if they don't have full-blown NPD.

In my case, I believe I was born grandiose and perhaps entitled, but it's hard to say whether entitlement developed as a result of feeling simultaneously inferior and grandiose (vulnerable narcissism). The grandiosity has been there, though, I believe, since "birth" (i.e. inherited). Maybe entitlement is more likely to develop as a result of the interaction between grandiosity and environmental factors.

BTW, what you say about dancing is really interesting. I was a natural performer as a kid. I loved being the center of attention. I was the class clown in elementary school. But I think my vulnerable narcissism aspect started in middle school/puberty, when I became self-aware, the grandiosity somewhat collapsed, and I realized that I wasn't thought of as cool or special, but just weird, pathetic, and a loser not to be taken seriously. I am now subsequently terrified of being at the center of attention. I feel I have to be someone I'm not to attract "everyone," not being at peace with myself. I also can't dance in clubs, public, etc. I'm extremely inhibited and rigid. Multiple people have commented on the rigidity.
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Re: Destructive label

Postby ViniStonemoss » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:46 pm

covertunsure wrote:In my case, I believe I was born grandiose and perhaps entitled, but it's hard to say whether entitlement developed as a result of feeling simultaneously inferior and grandiose (vulnerable narcissism). The grandiosity has been there, though, I believe, since "birth" (i.e. inherited). Maybe entitlement is more likely to develop as a result of the interaction between grandiosity and environmental factors.


A little known reason why it's often said that narcissism is resistant therapy is because of this:

Image

Because for all the harm the parents did to their child, this harm feels profoundly egosyntonic as it became the personality of the child.

And this is why, the pwNPD's course of therapy is often stunted, because, in order to make progress, the patient would have to call into question this primordial bond, that has shaped their personality. And for the reason explained in the picture, they rarely do.

To be fair, I was under the impression, though I could be wrong, that Akuma started to call this bond into question as he mentioned family dynamics lately.
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