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Identity disturbance in NPD?

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Re: Identity disturbance in NPD?

Postby AProphet » Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:45 pm

covertunsure wrote:Today, the psychologist basically said that we had the most informative and telling (to him) session so far. I was also very surprised at myself and I feel like I saw a new side of myself. Almost like I just met a new covertunsure. It's kind of scary. Is this common in PD therapy/PDs?

He started the session out suggesting that he doesn't believe I have a mood disorder and that it's all related to a PD, which I believe is total B S, because he's only seen me 3x and I've been diagnosed multiple times with mood disorder and 3 psychiatrists believed lamictal was appropriate for me. He finally conceded that I could have a mood disorder but that I should see a psychiatrist.

I know he's objectively wrong about some facts, based on my research, and I told him that. There is plenty of research contradicting his opinions and stated "facts," as there almost always is in any field. But I admit and realize my narcissism makes me think only I can be right.

And we both agreed that I started devaluing him because I no longer felt he was the expert, but I don't think the devaluation is as bad as most with pwBPD/NPD; it doesn't feel extreme like "he's a total moron" vs "he's perfect."

I also became a bit panicked and worried that he was abandoning me because he kept talking about me needing to find a psychiatrist. He assured me he wasn't abandoning me. I developed anger too and wanted to lash out, but I didn't.

He maintains I have BPD/NPD traits (he says I know that already) but may not meet the full DSM criteria; he said the DSM is flawed and not accurate/up to date in many ways anyway and that a formal dsm dx is less important than figuring out treatment.


Yes but narcissistic traits are not the same as pathological narcissm. They can even be healthy in todays individualistic society. NPD is a very specific vision of the world, and the main tenants are present in every case. Dependant on external validation (invalidation for covert), other people dont exist as independent entities, no sence of self or self awareness etc. The textbook narcissistic traits follow from that. So for you the traits may be unrelated to any PD you possibly might have. The new side of yourself seems to be more alike grandiose, not covert strain.

Glad to hear that a proffessional thinks DSM is not to be fully trusted. Keep your mind open and discover who you are, whoever that might be.
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Re: Identity disturbance in NPD?

Postby covertunsure » Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:01 pm

AProphet wrote:
covertunsure wrote:Today, the psychologist basically said that we had the most informative and telling (to him) session so far. I was also very surprised at myself and I feel like I saw a new side of myself. Almost like I just met a new covertunsure. It's kind of scary. Is this common in PD therapy/PDs?

He started the session out suggesting that he doesn't believe I have a mood disorder and that it's all related to a PD, which I believe is total B S, because he's only seen me 3x and I've been diagnosed multiple times with mood disorder and 3 psychiatrists believed lamictal was appropriate for me. He finally conceded that I could have a mood disorder but that I should see a psychiatrist.

I know he's objectively wrong about some facts, based on my research, and I told him that. There is plenty of research contradicting his opinions and stated "facts," as there almost always is in any field. But I admit and realize my narcissism makes me think only I can be right.

And we both agreed that I started devaluing him because I no longer felt he was the expert, but I don't think the devaluation is as bad as most with pwBPD/NPD; it doesn't feel extreme like "he's a total moron" vs "he's perfect."

I also became a bit panicked and worried that he was abandoning me because he kept talking about me needing to find a psychiatrist. He assured me he wasn't abandoning me. I developed anger too and wanted to lash out, but I didn't.

He maintains I have BPD/NPD traits (he says I know that already) but may not meet the full DSM criteria; he said the DSM is flawed and not accurate/up to date in many ways anyway and that a formal dsm dx is less important than figuring out treatment.


Yes but narcissistic traits are not the same as pathological narcissm. They can even be healthy in todays individualistic society. NPD is a very specific vision of the world, and the main tenants are present in every case. Dependant on external validation (invalidation for covert), other people dont exist as independent entities, no sence of self or self awareness etc. The textbook narcissistic traits follow from that. So for you the traits may be unrelated to any PD you possibly might have. The new side of yourself seems to be more alike grandiose, not covert strain.

Glad to hear that a proffessional thinks DSM is not to be fully trusted. Keep your mind open and discover who you are, whoever that might be.


Thank you, AProphet.

Today was tough going outside. I feel such narcissistic rage because people "refused" (or simply didn't) notice or find me attractive. It feels like a thousand knives in my stomach or soul—which in truth, I self-inflict. This absolutely must be some form of pathological narcissism. I can't think of any other explanation. Grandiosity -> entitlement -> unmet entitlement -> narcissistic injury -> narcissistic rage. To me, it just makes sense. I felt and still feel violently angry--I almost wanted to spill my hot coffee in someone's face--and want to just shut myself in my apartment to avoid that unmet entitlement and feeling of total inadequacy and worthlessness, and the subsequent rage.

having insight into and about it doesn't seem to make it much, if any, better and may not even be a positive prognostic indicator. If anything, it's a slow form of torture--realizing how ###$ up you are and feeling unable to fix any of it.
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Re: Identity disturbance in NPD?

Postby covertunsure » Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:03 pm

Saw my psychologist again last night as my mom agreed to pay half so I can start TFP 2x per week.

I told him about my grandiosity and how I expect attention and admiration on the street. He said it is pathological narcissism, but still maintains I fall a bit closer to BPD if he HAD to diagnose me, but I don't meet the full DSM criteria for NPD or BPD. This is both reassuring and upsetting/scary--reassuring that I don't have full NPD, but upsetting because he did confirm I have pathological narcissism.

If I understood correctly, he said he believes I have narcissistic defenses overlaid on borderline personality, but that the distinction isn't really worth making and they're sort of different sides of the same coin.

I don't relate to many of the BPD criteria. I get angry, but the rages seem more entitlement-based. He said they could be rejection sensitivity based rages, as I read pwBPD are on the 90th percentile of rejection sensitivity. But I feel like the rages are simply me not being treated as a king, gorgeous, etc. rather than simply feeling rejected.

I don't really understand how it's not vulnerable narcissism. I don't know if he knows that much about it, I feel like I'm starting to "devalue" him because he claims vulnerable narcissism, rather than being a discrete constriuct or disorder, is usually what happens to grandiose narcissists when they hit a peak or are brought down to "reality." That doesn't seem right to me since much literature seems to cast vulnerable narcissism as a unique subtype of narcissism...

He says vulnerable narcissism overlaps with BPD, but that the sense of self is still usually more fixed in true narcissism, versus my incredibly unstable self-image.
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Re: Identity disturbance in NPD?

Postby ZeroZ » Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:19 pm

That part aligns to my personal experiences about being grandiose and sort of crashing down to earth into vulnerable narcissism. I don’t feel narcissistic at all, if anything my self esteem is shlt. Maybe it always was and I just didn’t know it. I don’t know if that’s how it typically happens but I can see it.

He’s not going to diagnose you by the sounds of it and there is really no need to anyway, there is more stigma attached to it than what is needed to put on you. As long as treatment is figured out that’s what matters

The part that sticks out though is you walking around looking at the ground not wanting to be rejected, that doesn’t sound grandiose, I would expect that to be more like everyone loves me, look at all these people, they all admire me. I must be great, because if I wasn’t than they wouldn’t all like me so much. Etc, etc, etc
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Re: Identity disturbance in NPD?

Postby Stillface » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:06 am

Yes, I would say nPD does involve identity disturbance. Normally people with this PD develop a false self to please others and manage their self-esteem. They just dont have a good strong sense of self. The differences between BPD and covert NPD are quite subtle but might come out in attachments. People with NPD usually try to appear "successful" whatever that might mean for them but will have little real committment to their goals as they dont come from internal values. James Masterson is really good on false and true selves.
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Re: Identity disturbance in NPD?

Postby AProphet » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:26 am

Stillface wrote:Yes, I would say nPD does involve identity disturbance. Normally people with this PD develop a false self to please others and manage their self-esteem. They just dont have a good strong sense of self. The differences between BPD and covert NPD are quite subtle but might come out in attachments. People with NPD usually try to appear "successful" whatever that might mean for them but will have little real committment to their goals as they dont come from internal values. James Masterson is really good on false and true selves.


I subscribe to this view, becouse aparently Im a "We". "We dont want her to be with us", "We are not self hating anymore", "We have to trust her" etc.
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Re: Identity disturbance in NPD?

Postby covertunsure » Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:51 pm

ZeroZ wrote:That part aligns to my personal experiences about being grandiose and sort of crashing down to earth into vulnerable narcissism. I don’t feel narcissistic at all, if anything my self esteem is shlt. Maybe it always was and I just didn’t know it. I don’t know if that’s how it typically happens but I can see it.

He’s not going to diagnose you by the sounds of it and there is really no need to anyway, there is more stigma attached to it than what is needed to put on you. As long as treatment is figured out that’s what matters

The part that sticks out though is you walking around looking at the ground not wanting to be rejected, that doesn’t sound grandiose, I would expect that to be more like everyone loves me, look at all these people, they all admire me. I must be great, because if I wasn’t than they wouldn’t all like me so much. Etc, etc, etc


Well, in one way, I want a diagnosis, just to hate myself even more and also to be able to be more superiorly/specially defective than others, and in other ways I don't. He noticed and remarked about this contradiction too.

But I've tried to tell him as many grandiose things about myself as possible and he still leans more toward BPD, at this point. But I don't qualify for DSM diagnosis for either...of course, typical for me. I never fit neatly into any boxes.

The more I read and watch videos about vulnerable narcissism, I relate to it so much better than borderline personality disorder. I get narcissistic rage when my entitlement/grandiosity is denied and I'm aware of the reasons for my rage, versus the blind BPD rage that can often seemingly come out of nowhere. But my psychologist said my self-image is more unstable than people with true NPD and my mindset (forget the exact term he used) seems more flexible and less rigid. Maybe he's just trying to make me feel better because he knows how allergic I am to a narcissism diagnosis.

I'm quite positive that the looking down and other body language to avoid anticipated rejection/disinterest is grandiose (if covertly so) because I hold myself to a ridiculous standard due to a very punitive and harsh superego where I don't feel like I'm good enough unless I'm perfect and everyone finds me attractive. Since that never happens, I can literally never win, and thus I'm constantly miserable.
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Re: Identity disturbance in NPD?

Postby covertunsure » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:02 pm

Stillface wrote:Yes, I would say nPD does involve identity disturbance. Normally people with this PD develop a false self to please others and manage their self-esteem. They just dont have a good strong sense of self. The differences between BPD and covert NPD are quite subtle but might come out in attachments. People with NPD usually try to appear "successful" whatever that might mean for them but will have little real committment to their goals as they dont come from internal values. James Masterson is really good on false and true selves.


I relate to "little real commitment to their goals as they dont come from internal values." I have no real internal values, and I'm always looking for something where it's easier to make a faster buck, grass is greener, opportunistic, etc. I feel like such a disgusting human being most of the time.
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Re: Identity disturbance in NPD?

Postby KingPinX » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:17 am

As far as I can see my identity was shaped during late childhood / early teen years and didnt develop further from then.

I am still very much interested in the same stuff I was interested in back then. I tried new things but they all didnt reach my true core.

So in conclusion I do have a fixed core of interests that I feel compassionate about. But there is rarely ever anything added to that core-list. I sure have to do other things that I am not
really interested in. But that is just because its expected from me or serves another purpose...
pwNPD here. Message me if you have questions.
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