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case study: cured narcissist

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Re: case study: cured narcissist

Postby HSS » Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:47 pm

AProphet wrote:I dont know the details for psychopathy, maybe one of the antisocials that came over could help with that :). But they say psychopaths DO have empathy, its just a choice to turn it on, and mostly used in a callous way by them, aka "empathy switch" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23431793


Exact. As far as I know, they can be empathetic if they want.

However, they poorly care about the negative consequences of their lack of empathy, and find it difficult to pursue long-term goals: willing - intended as an uninterrupted direction, a constant effort - is a faculty of conscience; and the wish to be altruistically empathetic results from being altruistically empathetic. It's a circle.

Moreover, it's difficult to be constantly focused: image if we had to breathe consciously, without any automatism.

However I am not psychopath, just interested. I could miss the point.
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Re: case study: cured narcissist

Postby AProphet » Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:27 pm

HSS wrote:
AProphet wrote:I dont know the details for psychopathy, maybe one of the antisocials that came over could help with that :). But they say psychopaths DO have empathy, its just a choice to turn it on, and mostly used in a callous way by them, aka "empathy switch" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23431793


Exact. As far as I know, they can be empathetic if they want.

However, they poorly care about the negative consequences of their lack of empathy, and find it difficult to pursue long-term goals: willing - intended as an uninterrupted direction, a constant effort - is a faculty of conscience; and the wish to be altruistically empathetic results from being altruistically empathetic. It's a circle.

Moreover, it's difficult to be constantly focused: image if we had to breathe consciously, without any automatism.

However I am not psychopath, just interested. I could miss the point.


To clarify. The psychopathic person knows what people are feeling and how to use their feelings against them, to manipulate them. People are not rational creatures, they have all sorts of irrational buttons that can be pushed. A sort of social predator, can find your vulnerability and insecurities, charm and entrap you.
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Re: case study: cured narcissist

Postby justonemoreperson » Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:45 pm

HSS wrote:
Moreover, it's difficult to be constantly focused: image if we had to breathe consciously, without any automatism.


You right that it can't be done continuously; it just takes too much concentration, and focus is not easy.

This means you get caught out twice: once in the way you react when you fail to recognise signs that others don't and then later when you fail to realise what that's caused.
I'm not arguing; I'm explaining why I'm right.
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Re: case study: cured narcissist

Postby HSS » Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:02 pm

justonemoreperson wrote:
You right that it can't be done continuously; it just takes too much concentration, and focus is not easy.

This means you get caught out twice: once in the way you react when you fail to recognise signs that others don't and then later when you fail to realise what that's caused.


Thank you very much for sharing your insight. Maybe you can repair or stem the damage later, when you realize it...(?)

Is it more about a lack of self-consciousness or a lack of self-control?
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Re: case study: cured narcissist

Postby AProphet » Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:24 pm

HSS wrote:However I am not psychopath, just interested. I could miss the point.


Yes you are totally missing the point. So again what empathy is. The two constituents are cognitive empathy (a.k.a perspective taking) and the far more interesting constituent, emotional empathy:

Emotional contagion is the phenomenon of having one person's emotions and related behaviors directly trigger similar emotions and behaviors in other people. One view developed by Elaine Hatfield, et al., is that this can be done through automatic mimicry and synchronization of one's expressions, vocalizations, postures and movements with those of another person.[1] When people unconsciously mirror their companions' expressions of emotion, they come to feel reflections of those companions' emotions.[1] Emotions can be shared across individuals in many different ways both implicitly or explicitly."

"Affective empathy, also called emotional empathy:[25] the capacity to respond with an appropriate emotion to another's mental states.[24] Our ability to empathize emotionally is based on emotional contagion:[25] being affected by another's emotional or arousal state.[26]"

The human capacity to recognize the bodily feelings of another is related to one's imitative capacities, and seems to be grounded in an innate capacity to associate the bodily movements and facial expressions one sees in another with the proprioceptive feelings of producing those corresponding movements or expressions oneself.[21].


Sourced from wikipedia. Emotional empathy is the capacity which NPD specifically lacks. Totally incapable becouse the unconscious complex you think is your personality, the false self, ideal self image, the "narcissistic personality", the collection of primitive defensese, what Kernberg calls 'structure' characteristic to personality disorders, all names for the same thing. This unconscious multiple personality has a different set of feelings. Not the same feelings other people have. Thats why you cant empathise. Becouse your "emotions" are contrived and based off the narcissitic self-esteem regulation, narcissistic "supply" patterns. And they are mostly faked "emotions", to entrap and hoover victims.

The other constituent is cognitive empathy, as Is shown in the study. Now you all have a lot of irrelevant personal analogies to make, but never relate to the question OR discuss the study.

HSS wrote:
justonemoreperson wrote:
You right that it can't be done continuously; it just takes too much concentration, and focus is not easy.

This means you get caught out twice: once in the way you react when you fail to recognise signs that others don't and then later when you fail to realise what that's caused.


Thank you very much for sharing your insight. Maybe you can repair or stem the damage later, when you realize it...(?)

Is it more about a lack of self-consciousness or a lack of self-control?


This is IRRELEVANT, DO YOU UNDERSTAND? And its not even proper language construction. Do you understand that its tautology and circlejerking? That is exactly the narcissistic predicament - being unable to meaningfully relate to the world.

In my humble oppinion everyone is capable of cognitive empathy (perspective taking) if they want to. For the pwNPD this faces several challenges, lack of 'regular' feeling as described above, and object relations impairment (object constancy, briefly that people keep exisitnig when they dissapear from sight), the 'granadiose' narrative the narcissist is following being another impairment, but even the pwNPD should be able to understand another person and their choices, at least intellectualy, or am I wrong about that? So before we talk about how the psychopath does it, you have to understand what empathy is.
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Re: case study: cured narcissist

Postby AProphet » Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:58 pm

Interesting passage from the epilogue of Symbols of Transformation:

In this way he makes it [the doctor, speaking of the doctors duty]
possible for the patient to assimilate at least part of the unconscious and to
repair the menacing dissociation by just that amount. At the same time the
assimilation guards against the dangerous isolation which everyone feels
when confronted by an incomprehensible and irrational aspect of his
personality. Isolation leads to panic, and that is only too often the
beginning of a psychosis. The wider the gap between conscious and
unconscious, the nearer creeps the fatal splitting of the personality, which
in neurotically disposed individuals leads to neurosis, and, in those with a
psychotic constitution, to schizophrenia and fragmentation of personality.
The aim of psychotherapy is therefore to narrow down and eventually
abolish the dissociation by integrating the tendencies of the unconscious
into the conscious mind.


Interesting becouse It cointains the (now archaic) definitions of phenomena: dissociation, fragmentation and even a theory of schizophrenia, which even today remains undefined on wikipedia, mostly defined by its sympthoms and pointing towards genetic causes, which I would reject, in favor of behavioral ones.
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Re: case study: cured narcissist

Postby justonemoreperson » Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:23 am

AProphet wrote:you have to understand what empathy is.[/b]


This one's easy.

It's a combination of two things:

1. Theory of Mind to understand how a person is reacting to an event, based on how we would react to the same event in similar circumstances.
2. A demonstration of concern for the person, based on that Theory of Mind (TOM).


If you don't care about other people, you won't expect others to care for other people, so you won't expect them to be suffering. To be able to be empathetic you have to accept logically, rather than naturally, that they react differently to you and adapt your behaviour to match.

But, this doesn't happen naturally, so unless you're focusing on it, it won't happen.

This happens to everyone, but isn't a problem usually, because most people's TOM puts them in the same bucket as everyone else.

In fact, that general TOM works to my advantage, because everyone expects you to be a certain way, so your behaviour is justified and rationalised by others according to how they would react, not how you're reacting.

When my parents died and I didn't show any real concern, people used their own TOM to work it through, "everyone grieves in different ways" etc. That worked for me, as it made me look like someone who was suffering inside and putting a brave face on it, rather than how it really was.

However, when someone else is showing upset etc, my first and natural reaction to this is, "What are you trying to achieve?" I assume they're doing it for effect and, although I rationally consider that they're not; that they genuinely feel like that, it doesn't feel true.
I'm not arguing; I'm explaining why I'm right.
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Re: case study: cured narcissist

Postby AProphet » Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:25 am

justonemoreperson wrote:
AProphet wrote:you have to understand what empathy is.[/b]


This one's easy.

It's a combination of two things:

1. Theory of Mind to understand how a person is reacting to an event, based on how we would react to the same event in similar circumstances.
2. A demonstration of concern for the person, based on that Theory of Mind (TOM).


If you don't care about other people, you won't expect others to care for other people, so you won't expect them to be suffering. To be able to be empathetic you have to accept logically, rather than naturally, that they react differently to you and adapt your behaviour to match.

But, this doesn't happen naturally, so unless you're focusing on it, it won't happen.

This happens to everyone, but isn't a problem usually, because most people's TOM puts them in the same bucket as everyone else.

In fact, that general TOM works to my advantage, because everyone expects you to be a certain way, so your behaviour is justified and rationalised by others according to how they would react, not how you're reacting.

When my parents died and I didn't show any real concern, people used their own TOM to work it through, "everyone grieves in different ways" etc. That worked for me, as it made me look like someone who was suffering inside and putting a brave face on it, rather than how it really was.

However, when someone else is showing upset etc, my first and natural reaction to this is, "What are you trying to achieve?" I assume they're doing it for effect and, although I rationally consider that they're not; that they genuinely feel like that, it doesn't feel true.


Yes I've seen plenty of apologetic theories like that In the other big thread on the forum: narcissistic-personality/topic215286.html, wait for it, "Empathy is narcissism". Which SelfSerf comeneted most astutely:

SelfSerf wrote:Such a typical narcissistic thing to do — flip a concept on its head and claim it to be the exact equal of its opposite. I wonder why we truly tend towards doing that.


No, its not enough that someone made you a wikipedia link explaining. Still you know better. Becouse only the narcissist has thoughts and can be right. So its all about them "reacting to you" and what you "are achieving" with you showing empathic concern. (fake "emotions" to hoover victims and suppy extraction). And whether "Donna" deserves your empathy, which you dont have and cant understand that, becouse you lack a capacity to self-reflect. Also notice that the post is purely about perspective (cognitive emathy), emotions dont even enter into your calculation.

appendix1. Definition of aplogetics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apologetics
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Re: case study: cured narcissist

Postby SelfSerf » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:09 pm

AProphet wrote:
HSS wrote:This is IRRELEVANT, DO YOU UNDERSTAND? And its not even proper language construction. Do you understand that its tautology and circlejerking? That is exactly the narcissistic predicament - being unable to meaningfully relate to the world.


Yup. The very reason why suicide is slowly climbing up my to-do list.

The realization that one is mad but being unable to actually do anything about it because the very essence of going on living in the world necessitate the employment of the madness. Once your own actions lead you to understand this on a visceral level, true nihilism sets in.

A few years ago I pitched a tattoo idea to a friend who gave me DMT. It was supposed to be the ouroboros but with a dagger slicing it up to break the circle. I`d always been attracted to the symbol but at some point ending the circle came more into the forefront. In my mind it was to symbolize the idea that this $#%^ would stop with me. I would not procreate because I would never be capable of parenting and no other human should carry the weight of the suffering that was imposed on me through having a pwNPD as a father. And my friend´s first response was, you mean ending it all? I didn´t quite fathom that was what I was unintentionally referring to with it, only realized this after the fact.

I had some comments (not a real epiphany) about your case study the other day but I seem to have forgotten. :x
“Should I kill myself, or have a cup of coffee?”
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Re: case study: cured narcissist

Postby AProphet » Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:41 am

SelfSerf wrote:It was supposed to be the ouroboros but with a dagger slicing it up to break the circle. I`d always been attracted to the symbol but at some point ending the circle came more into the forefront.


Maybe this is the epiphany? xD. Did that motiff show up in dreams?
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