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Boundaries

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Boundaries

Postby SelfSerf » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:23 pm

Not the first time I´ve listened to this but it really made me think and consider again my experience of growing up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBKPQsKHgck

I know that I have fairly crappy boundaries and the lack of bodily ones have become especially clear to me as of late. If I wind myself up and go around without being grounded (majority of the time), it´s like my mind gets ahead of my body, am not really well situated in it.

My dad (cNPD, just to reiterate) held off on physical contact throughout my childhood and the majority of memories I have of him doing it were always in somewhat of a ´scientific´ manner, if you will. As he has always been a fitness freak (a liftime jogger of a religious nature, to the point where he got irritated if he hadn´t for a reason or another done it and lashed out on us), one of the things he would do when my sister and I were little was take us to cross-country skiing trips and I always had this sens that he expected us to get into jogging like he has done or smth of the like as well. His touches wer always in very rational, i.e. noting to us which muscles had seen the most use during the excercising and so on. Tbh, throughout my life his presence always felt distant like it was too well-considered and came from a rational place, without warmth. There was the odd acknowledging (but very selective) pat here and there and he had the habit of giving (again, awkward) high fives when he dropped me off for a longer time period. The single hug I ever remember him giving us was when he announced to us that our mother was very sick (late stage cancer) and he gathered us around and told this to us in a solemn way. Other than that, it´s just been emotional neglect from his part because he simply lacked the capacity.

As a teenager I was quite isolated and a loner so I didn´t really partake in anything I deemed ´rowdy´ with others. I had only few fights in school but they were just that, fights - they got started quick and intense and subsided as fast.

Well, anyhow fast forward to 27yo me who has done little to no contact sports (always felt team sports were too cookie-cutter) but with action sports. The only boundaries to be found out are the truly physical ones like when your skin or worse bones break and it has nothing to do with other people and sensing their boundaries.

I have a friend who is quite well socialized but suspect had a somewhat narcissistic father (he´s told me as much and has some codependent traits) who oftentimes tries to mess around and wrestle with me, which leaves me dumbfounded because it´s quite difficult for me to gauge how I should respond. Am somewhat of a strong believer that people with empathy intuitively know. This is something that I´ve not and there´s a part of me that thinks maybe this could be something missing in my life that when improved, could carry further benefits to other areas of life as well?

So the takeaway from this to me is - lack of contact=lack of socialization. Do any of you relate to this at all and how were your parents with physical intimacy?
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Re: Boundaries

Postby AProphet » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:30 pm

Yes, without empathy (or feelings, you dont have those eaither remember, only the most basest emotion) you cant understand other people. Boundaries means what we find acceptable interacting with other people and what not. Your actions have consequences and other people have thoughts and feelings about them, and the other way arround. Or are you asking specificaly about the issue of touch, as you keep coming back to that (contact sports, wrestling) suggests? The 27 year old you has no sence of boundaries, except for the truly bonebreaking ones, is that what you ment to say? Yes people with empathy know intuitively, its a superpower. You can read other peoples minds with it.

To answer your last question, mommy slept with me up to age 6-7, I can still remember it albeit vaguely. Dad was not present, working in america.


SelfSerf wrote:So the takeaway from this to me is - lack of contact=lack of socialization. [...]


As a note this is called a tautology, a statement that is always true. Dont take this in a mean way. Maybe someday you'll discover, that you dont think at all, that your an automaton, like I did. Be mindful of this and try to gauge the effect of your actions on others. For a more healthy understanding of boundaries. That you exist and your actions have consequences. Remember that, becouse the disorder takes away your self-awareness. Boundaries also means taking responsility for your own actions and not the actions of others. Dont take it personally how your dad was to you and your family. On further note try to think of things you do and why, rather than "who I am", "how I became who I am". It will help to facilitate self-reflection.
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Re: Boundaries

Postby SelfSerf » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:00 pm

AProphet wrote:Or are you asking specificaly about the issue of touch, as you keep coming back to that (contact sports, wrestling) suggests? The 27 year old you has no sence of boundaries, except for the truly bonebreaking ones, is that what you ment to say? Yes people with empathy know intuitively, its a superpower. You can read other peoples minds with it.

To answer your last question, mommy slept with me up to age 6-7, I can still remember it albeit vaguely. Dad was not present, working in america.


SelfSerf wrote:So the takeaway from this to me is - lack of contact=lack of socialization. [...]



As a note this is called a tautology, a statement that is always true. Dont take this in a mean way. Maybe someday you'll discover, that you dont think at all, that your an automaton, like I did. Be mindful of this and try to gauge the effect of your actions on others. For a more healthy understanding of boundaries. That you exist and your actions have consequences. Remember that, becouse the disorder takes away your self-awareness. Boundaries also means taking responsility for your own actions and not the actions of others. Dont take it personally how your dad was to you and your family. On further note try to think of things you do and why, rather than "who I am", "how I became who I am". It will help to facilitate self-reflection.


Thanks for the reply and for the advice. I really do appreciate it. That bold part made me laugh out lout. In my mind it´s quite typical of you to write something like that and I´ve been realizing this more and more.

Yeah, that ´summary´ wasn´t exactly anything earth-shattering. Figured that people would probably not give the YT link an actual watch-through. Briefly put, Peterson talks about the importance of rough and tumble play in there and the effect it has on the child´s psyche. I guess my childhood was not absolutely deficient in play as such though but there certainly was no real physicality between us, as if he was always afraid of it. Now I know for sure that actually was the case. Weak father figures make for weak agency and meaningless drifting as is also well known.

As for with other boys, I was always quite a sheltered child in that respect also, maybe overly sensitive from the start. Then later on the rowdyiness of a group of guys always felt weird to me somehow, reckon it has to do with lack of certainty in myself and seeing others as bold and sure of themselves, whereas I always had a weak sense of self. I opted out of it completely, thinking I was the sensitive, creative type whereas internally it was actually kind of a "I´m better than that". It was probably just that I felt I didn´t belong and it became a strong layer of defence ("I don´t need to do that guys stuff, that´s dumb")

As for not giving my dad grief, my whole life I´ve spent hung up on what I feel I was cheated out of in childhood, which is the love of my mother. After she passed, my grandmother blamed my father (and it was reiterated by her that my father´s father had done so also) and it painted a picture in my mind of how things had been between them pretty quick. Nowadays, what there is to learn about trauma, bonding and constantly being anxious about someone, makes it all very likely that they were both right. He was never violent with her but I know for a fact he didn´t love her as he simply wasn´t capable of it and always left her guessing.

What I learned about my father as a child were large part of the reason why I tried to make decisions so as to not end up like him. Nonetheless I dug myself into the hole that I am currently in by trying to evade that destiny. My whole state of mind became absolutely twisted after realizing that all I hated about him, I have embodied. The self-hate was augmented even more-so because I understood that even though I had tried my hardest not to end up like him, in a cosmically ironic fashion, I have become that and even worse.

Anyhow, the physicality of a mother with their children is obv a lot different than between a father and child, as it carries a totally different aim. Assuming it was one of the few times in your life when you actually felt cared for, does it carry a deep significance do you? At least that´s how it is for me, as I remember vividly a very pecific moment which also could have been somewhere around age 6-7.
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Re: Boundaries

Postby AProphet » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:11 pm

Im sorry I just dont like Peterson. I just saw the video and its the same as all the others. The conclusions he draws, and he no doubt thinks those are very significant, are not actualy very significant at all and in fact trivial. You should try someone who is a buddha, like me. Like buddhism, means 'awakened one'. Emerald https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvW2U2 ... BzUYOw0DwA or Teal Swan https://www.youtube.com/user/TheSpiritualCatalyst for example.

Its excellent that you drew the conclusion that you are like your dad, someone you detested. That was my first step to self-realization too. That how I treated Bony was a mirror of how my mom treated me.

Yes I was cared for, by many people, my dad too, although he was distant but he was an ok person and being manipulated by my mom constantly, all the girls that fell in love with me and even the mom of the first girl that fell in love with me, when I was 13. She fell in love and my mom and sister was present and her mom, right there, it was a on a winter camp in Zakopane, carpathian mountains. Her mom said she fell in love and what I should do (reciprocate). I said I wont reciprocate and I remember her hurt and my mom so pround of me. That Im hurting this girl right in front of her. I learned more from her mom in that moment, that from my own mom EVER. Althought I wasnt able to understand the significance yet.
A friend in the warehouse that saw me fall in love with Bony, knew we were both in love with eachother, he wanted to tell me just becouse I knew english and made jokes to him, If I just admitted to him that Im in love, thought he will be telling me something that is obvious anyway. Not to the narcissists. Instead he got to see all the insanity firsthand. Becouse he didnt have thoughts yet, I was mentally ill. Only the narcissists has thoughts.
Another friend in college in the student dorm when I was breaking the heart of another girl by being insane, wanted to tell me too, nagged me to admit to my mistake of getting naked and getting in another girls bed, as a joke (the two girls were friends). So I had poeople care but I couldnt understand it and hated them and only just understood that recently, and its still very traumatic. Id rather not have known. Many people that wanted to spend time together and not abuse me, becouse I secretly craved to be treated narcissisticaly by a narcissist aparently. So things like that, when other people had your best interest in mind, had plenty and it still wasnt enough when your self abusive.

The example of my mom sleeping with me when I was 7 was actualy and example of abuse and not respecting my boundaries, not of being cared for. She did other things like asking me to touch her tits if front of my dad. Or demeaning me in front of the family, laughing at me, telling me Im the bad one and I need to be fixed, thats what realy damages a child. Or when a guy puched me in front of my house, my mom saw it and screamed "good, punch him again" and calling me by my nickname. Even the guy who punched me was kind of terrified at the pathology.

PS what do you mean written in bold? you mean what you put in italics?
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Re: Boundaries

Postby Akuma » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:56 am

I have a friend who is quite well socialized but suspect had a somewhat narcissistic father (he´s told me as much and has some codependent traits) who oftentimes tries to mess around and wrestle with me, which leaves me dumbfounded because it´s quite difficult for me to gauge how I should respond. Am somewhat of a strong believer that people with empathy intuitively know. This is something that I´ve not and there´s a part of me that thinks maybe this could be something missing in my life that when improved, could carry further benefits to other areas of life as well?


Its one of the times again that you use a word but you dont really talk about it at all in your text. What you talk about is your father objectifying you, you feeling like an object, and you still being on the level where you think you need physical touch to feel real. Or at least thats what I gather. But that doesnt have much to do with boundaries, except for that you might have a lack of physical boundaries, because you cant decide if you want guys to touch you or not. But what you dont do is actually ask the guy. You resort to magical thinking about what "empathy" could do for you. Next time he "wrestles" with you, if you dislike it ask him why hes doing it, or to stop. If you like it, ask him out. If you are unsure if you like it or dislike it well... you can guess, right.

As to personal experience I dont think examples fit here very well. But a lot of my imaginary world consists of physical things. Its a developmental step that needs to be taken at some point and is a part of mentalization. Its one of the things that pwBPD struggle a lot with for example, always having the need to be "shown" that they are loved in quite concrete, or if you so want, physical ways. On the flipside - to press the topic in here with some force - an absence of such makes it hard to set up boundaries of course, because you might not even be aware of the emotional plane enough to even see that your boundaries are violated.
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Re: Boundaries

Postby AProphet » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:40 pm

Akuma wrote:
As to personal experience I dont think examples fit here very well. But a lot of my imaginary world consists of physical things. Its a developmental step that needs to be taken at some point and is a part of mentalization. Its one of the things that pwBPD struggle a lot with for example, always having the need to be "shown" that they are loved in quite concrete, or if you so want, physical ways. On the flipside - to press the topic in here with some force - an absence of such makes it hard to set up boundaries of course, because you might not even be aware of the emotional plane enough to even see that your boundaries are violated.


Im invalidated becouse of my hallucinogen use, but aku gets to have an imaginary world. Of physical things nevertheless. It doesnt make sence anyway its a contradiction in terms. Other examples: "A miniature giant", "a shiny blackness" etc.
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Re: Boundaries

Postby realityhere » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:10 am

@AProphet,

Not sure where you live and if your browser program allows it, but if you click on reply to a post here, you may get at the top of your reply post a series of buttons on the left side, that upon clicking on them, will change your text to bold or italics for either emphasis or special attention. Better than shouting in all caps.

Your view as well as akuma's may have added value to other users. You just never know, after all, this is an online forum with anonymously named users who are humans behind those screens with different experiences and family backgrounds.
We don't delete posts, so think twice before clicking "submit".
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Re: Boundaries

Postby AProphet » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:18 am

realityhere wrote:@AProphet,

Not sure where you live and if your browser program allows it, but if you click on reply to a post here, you may get at the top of your reply post a series of buttons on the left side, that upon clicking on them, will change your text to bold or italics for either emphasis or special attention. Better than shouting in all caps.

Your view as well as akuma's may have added value to other users. You just never know, after all, this is an online forum with anonymously named users who are humans behind those screens with different experiences and family backgrounds.


Im sorry, I dont get what you mean about the caps. I know how to do bold or italics. I was asking SelfSerf what he ment, he didnt relpy yet.

If the users of the online forum happen to have NPD, I wouldnt call them humans though. You cant call someone without empathy and self awareness a human being. (this statement is to be treated humorously)
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Re: Boundaries

Postby realityhere » Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:27 pm

Ever seen a post written in all capital letters? Per internet etiquette, all caps is considered "shouting" and therefore, rude.

Users who peruse or lurk on this forum may or may not have the NPD disorder.

For those who do have the disorder and are self-aware, it's a real struggle to understand empathy as nons understand it. They themselves didn't get much empathy or positive attention as children from the very ppl who should have provided it, their parents or primary caretakers. The defense mechanisms and sense of entitlement often kick in as coping methods to deal with a hostile world, real or perceived. Human beings deal with their environment in different ways, and humans who have this disorder are not any different in trying to survive their circumstances.
We don't delete posts, so think twice before clicking "submit".
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Re: Boundaries

Postby ViniStonemoss » Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:03 pm

Patronizing = when you can't get attention or respect in a legitimate manner...

-- Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:09 pm --

AProphet wrote:Im invalidated becouse of my hallucinogen use, but aku gets to have an imaginary world. Of physical things nevertheless. It doesnt make sence anyway its a contradiction in terms. Other examples: "A miniature giant", "a shiny blackness" etc.


Akuma is more of a theory kind of guy, not so much a kind of guy with a great deal of insight into his emotions. You're the other way around, to each their own. Your hallucinogen use can never invalidate that - merely the more outlandish claims perhaps, but that's about it.

Take care, you do have valuable insight to provide, and anybody who is trying to change that perception of yourself, is probably dealing with severe issues themselves.
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