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Compensatory Narcissistic Personality Disorder questions

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Compensatory Narcissistic Personality Disorder questions

Postby ddreamer » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:35 pm

i'm new here and hope this post is OK with the rules.
i just learned about this CNPD from: http://www.ptypes.com/compensatory-narpd.html
it a very interesting read and makes a lot of sense and sounds a bit like the covert narcissism, i've heard about.

even though it's not an official diagnostic entity, it appears to fit very well my whole life story, even including my childhood:
Overprotective, insecure, socially ambitious mother; weak, unsuccessful father (Donaldson).

Parental indulgence of pretensions and of unrealistic views of the self and life's possibilities.

The more unrealistic the expectations of the parents, presupposing massive denial of emotional reality, the more likely that a discrepancy will arise between the "ideal child" and the "real child" (Wurmser, pg. 72).


there is only one discrepancy, under The Dimensional Perspective:
High Neuroticism
Chronic negative affects, including anxiety, fearfulness, tension, irritability, anger, dejection, hopelessness, guilt, shame; difficulty in inhibiting impulses: for example, to eat, drink, or spend money; irrational beliefs: for example, unrealistic expectations, perfectionistic demands on self, unwarranted pessimism; unfounded somatic concerns; helplessness and dependence on others for emotional support and decision making.

High Extraversion
Excessive talking, leading to inappropriate self-disclosure and social friction; inability to spend time alone; attention seeking and overly dramatic expression of emotions; reckless excitement seeking; inappropriate attempts to dominate and control others.

High Openness
Preoccupation with fantasy and daydreaming; lack of practicality; eccentric thinking (e.g., belief in ghosts, reincarnation, UFOs); diffuse identity and changing goals: for example, joining religious cult; susceptibility to nightmares and states of altered consciousness; social rebelliousness and nonconformity that can interfere with social or vocational advancement.

Low Agreeableness
Cynicism and paranoid thinking; inability to trust even friends or family; quarrelsomeness; too ready to pick fights; exploitive and manipulative; lying; rude and inconsiderate manner alienates friends, limits social support; lack of respect for social conventions can lead to troubles with the law; inflated and grandiose sense of self; arrogance.

Low Conscientiousness
Underachievement: not fulfilling intellectual or artistic potential; poor academic performance relative to ability; disregard of rules and responsibilities can lead to trouble with the law; unable to discipline self (e.g., stick to diet, exercise plan) even when required for medical reasons; personal and occupational aimlessness.


i'm all that, except for Extraversion, i'm quite an introverted type, although sometimes (rarely) i do act like extraverted type (when people are genuinely interested in what i have to say in my obscure areas of interest).

the questions: do any of you resonate with the description of CNPD? do you fit the big 5 personality types? what are you officially diagnosed with? any life advice you can offer?

thanks!
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Re: Compensatory Narcissistic Personality Disorder questions

Postby ddreamer » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:43 pm

i see no takers and the forum is slow. is there a better forum to ask this question?

in the meantime, i did some searches and educated myself on the compensatory vs covert narcissism. they are 2 different things, i guess. i did some online PD quizzes and looks like i have some avoidant, paranoid, and borderline traits. i guess the compensatory narcissism (if indeed present) is a defense mechanism. although i do remember as a child, i tended to me arrogant, selfish, and entitled (instilled by my parents i guess?). now, middle aged, i think more about myself as a sensitive, considerate, and empathic person, but with poor social skills.

i guess the association with the big 5 personality traits in the site i linked is BS.

thanks for listening.

peace!
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Re: Compensatory Narcissistic Personality Disorder questions

Postby SelfSerf » Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:02 am

Holy crap. This actually describes me to a tee.

The extraversion was not so when I was younger but once I opened up more (actually this was post-first shroom trip, which they say contributes strongly to the attribute of openess) but particularly during car rides I have been capable of yapping away incessantly and dominating conversations during the duration of the whole trip to the extent that I began to grow sick of myself and the whole situation I was in. These days I´m way too schizoid and quite resigned from societal issues due to more augmented ASPD traits that I don´t swing to that side too often. Plus I avoid people.

This first point you made especially seems like it fits my upbringing although not entirely. My mother passed when I was younger so had my grandmother mainly raising me after the age 9 (who I am fairly certain has some form of personality disorder, most likely HPD. She is emotionally very childlike and the incessantly talkative type, conversations always revolve around life seems to revolve but she is not malintented like NPD.
Father I would not say is not entirely unsuccessful but his success has never been overt neither so I never once really looked up to him in childhood, just modelled myself after him somewhat. He is of the covert NPD variety also but I never saw his relationships to be successful and he never was comfortable being in the spotlight (although his work kind of necessitates it, being a journalist and writer, having to do public appearances as well). He is unsuccessful and unskillful in all the typical manly jobs though which I reckon I looked down on him for, because he was never capable of seeing things through or actually fixing anything and bringing any physical change in the world. His work just revolved around reflecting what other people do and achieve in the world and I think I´ve always seen that as a weakness. His grandiosity shines through in how he carries himself though and I think in a way he has always made his work the most important thing in life. His jb has always taken centerstage over our needs but he has provided for me and my sister´s functions after being widowed but none of our emotional well-being. So as a father I would clearly deem him unsuccessful.

Overprotective, insecure, socially ambitious mother; weak, unsuccessful father (Donaldson).


Thanks for sharing this. Came across this concept in another thread but it didn´t really strike me as important. Quite intriguing actually. So far I´ve considered myselt the covert kind with ASPD traits but this makes me rethink things.
“Should I kill myself, or have a cup of coffee?”
Camus
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Re: Compensatory Narcissistic Personality Disorder questions

Postby Akuma » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:47 am

ddreamer wrote:i see no takers and the forum is slow. is there a better forum to ask this question?

in the meantime, i did some searches and educated myself on the compensatory vs covert narcissism. they are 2 different things, i guess. i did some online PD quizzes and looks like i have some avoidant, paranoid, and borderline traits. i guess the compensatory narcissism (if indeed present) is a defense mechanism. although i do remember as a child, i tended to me arrogant, selfish, and entitled (instilled by my parents i guess?). now, middle aged, i think more about myself as a sensitive, considerate, and empathic person, but with poor social skills.

i guess the association with the big 5 personality traits in the site i linked is BS.

thanks for listening.

peace!


Compensatory narcissism was a subtype proposed by Theodore Millon, who I think also worked on one of the older DSMs. It was never accepted into mainstream though and is basically not used at all in the literature. I find the word compensatory rather unlucky, after all most mental illness symptoms are compensatory on one level or another.
As to covert narcissism there has been a shift in the last 10 years or so to look at covert as the expressive form of narcissism and to look at narcissistic vulnerability as another, different factor, which nowadays explains some of the aspects that were originally associated with what has been called shy, hypersensitive, closet, covert narcissism etc in the past.
In any event, online tests wont get you very far, if you want a diagnosis I'd see a professional about it.
dx: dissociative disorder + npd
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Re: Compensatory Narcissistic Personality Disorder questions

Postby ddreamer » Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:20 pm

Akuma wrote:As to covert narcissism there has been a shift in the last 10 years or so to look at covert as the expressive form of narcissism and to look at narcissistic vulnerability as another, different factor, which nowadays explains some of the aspects that were originally associated with what has been called shy, hypersensitive, closet, covert narcissism etc in the past.


thanks! are there some sources where i can educate myself on that expressive form of narcissism and narcissistic vulnerability as a different factor?

in the meantime, i'm thinking more about that CNPD concept, and i have some doubts about validity of it myself.

here is why. when i was young, an adolescent and young adult, i was fairly overly narcissistic, concentrating mostly on obtaining my ambitious life goals and appreciating only ares of life where i excelled and pretending that the other areas (small talk, friendships, family, empathy) were not important. you can say i fit the bill of NPD fairly well.

at that time i felt and believed i was much better than my peers and i had no clue that there were deep seated insecurities, besides some dark hunched that i lived in a denial of. as the reality of the hard grad school sank in, i realized the hard way that i was not so special as i thought, even thought i achieved things in life far beyond my initial expectations.

then, i realized i was missing important qualities that i ignored the whole life and tried to catch up. i still had some narcissistic ways, but I was clearly aware of my limitations and my self-esteem was painfully low. it was partially due to some traumatic events and the resulting untreated PTSD. then, my narcissistic style of life was clearly compensatory to pretend i was fine (I really was fine objectively, it just didn't feel that way subjectively). during that time, i was treated for depression, too.

with time, my narcissistic traits have mellowed and now i'm fully appreciative of small talk, friendships, family, empathy, etc. i'm fascinated by psychology and relationships and i almost made a 180 degree turn.

so, i don't see things written in stone, as we learn and have plastic brains that keep changing. i also see limitation of labels and those labels clearly don't fim me well.

thanks for listening.
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Re: Compensatory Narcissistic Personality Disorder questions

Postby Akuma » Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:45 pm

ddreamer wrote:
thanks! are there some sources where i can educate myself on that expressive form of narcissism and narcissistic vulnerability as a different factor?


The distinction is mostly used in research, as in therapy those labels arent really that important and there are no diagnosis [yet] for these subtypes.
Maybe a starting point could be this one here ->

http://www.sakkyndig.com/psykologi/artv ... us2014.pdf

or that one

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2011-16529-004

so, i don't see things written in stone, as we learn and have plastic brains that keep changing. i also see limitation of labels and those labels clearly don't fim me well.

thanks for listening.


Well narcissism itself is a very complicated and contradicting concept. In a way this goes for the personality conception, too. I've just recently read an article somewhere that was arguing against the concept of the PD itself, basically saying that PD symptoms would normally subside after a certain while. Then of course theres also the opposite view, basically saying its all hopeless hehe. I think its not surprisingly very individual and doesnt necessarily depend on which kind of "PD" one has, but on the mental system as a whole.
dx: dissociative disorder + npd
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Re: Compensatory Narcissistic Personality Disorder questions

Postby AProphet » Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:12 pm

"Unfortunately, many incorrectlyassociate overt expressions of narcissism exclusively with gran-diosity and covert expressions of narcissism exclusively withvulnerability. There is no empirical support for these linkages.DSM NPD criteria as well as items on various self-reports,interviews, and rating instruments assessing pathological nar-cissism include a mix of overt elements (behaviors, expressedattitudes, and emotions) and covert experiences (cognitions,private feelings, motives, needs). Our clinical experience withnarcissistic patients indicates they virtually always exhibit bothcovert and overt grandiosity and covert and overt vulnerability.As we depict in Figure 1, the distinction between overt andcovert expressions of narcissism is secondary to phenotypicvariation in grandiosity and vulnerability."

Ok its not the same thing when you go into research. But what matters is that the two distinct strains of pathological narcissism (grandiose, vulnerable) are widely recognized as such. And remember, I did understand theres a difference in terms of overtness, as defined in research. I just used different words.

Aprophet wrote:How did this become about ambiversion? This on the other hand, has nothing to do with the transition from covert to overt. You can be very outgoing and sociable when abusing yourself as covert.


I just should have used the word vulnerable to be precise.
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Re: Compensatory Narcissistic Personality Disorder questions

Postby ddreamer » Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:40 pm

thanks Akuma, the link helped.

what i meant to say by telling this long anecdote about myselves is that most cases of narcissism (and i'm not talking here about NPD only) is compensatory in one way or another, sometimes were are aware of the underlying insecurities and sometimes it's hidden from our consciousness.

based on my own case, the huge component of this is perfectionism. i strove for most of my life to be perfect, and then i realized i failed big time and had a life crises. while it was painful, this was (is) very constructive and enabled me to heal the wounds (still healing).
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Re: Compensatory Narcissistic Personality Disorder questions

Postby Akuma » Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:49 am

Its really stupid, because you cant reach perfection anyways. So in the moment you strive for it you prepare failure. Whats probably interesting along the way is figuring out what kind of perfectionism one has and why. So do I expect myself to be perfect because I want to present a perfect image, or because others expect that from me (in my view) or do I expect others to be perfect etc.
For me so far perfectionism has been a sidenote in my therapy, altho its certainly an annoying, while mostly invisible issue. I havent yet looked at it a lot either, so which perfectionism makes me be too hard on myself when creating art for example, or which one might be influencing paranoid trends.
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Re: Compensatory Narcissistic Personality Disorder questions

Postby ddreamer » Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:28 pm

Akuma wrote:Its really stupid, because you cant reach perfection anyways. So in the moment you strive for it you prepare failure. Whats probably interesting along the way is figuring out what kind of perfectionism one has and why. So do I expect myself to be perfect because I want to present a perfect image, or because others expect that from me (in my view) or do I expect others to be perfect etc.


you're right, one cannot be perfect. the more i strove, the more i was disappointed, and that made me strive some more, till i reached the breaking point, and the house of cards fell (vulnerability/depression). I had a few waves of that. there was also a system i had, i concentrated on my strengths and ignored my weakness, pretending i don't care about those sides of life and they are unimportant. later, life showed me they were important alright (more vulnerability/depression).

as for why, the best i can understand, i was born sensitive to criticism (high neuroticism) and had emotionally distant and overcritical parents. eventually i internalized their critique, and it became my worst internal critic, hating myself for anything short of perfection. the more it hurt, the more i put the compensatory narcissistic armor to be able to stand myself. then the cycle begins.


Akuma wrote:For me so far perfectionism has been a sidenote in my therapy, altho its certainly an annoying, while mostly invisible issue. I havent yet looked at it a lot either, so which perfectionism makes me be too hard on myself when creating art for example, or which one might be influencing paranoid trends.


interesting, i thought perfectionism was the crux of narcissism?
https://cruxpsychology.ca/wp-content/up ... 90-101.pdf
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