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Best therapy for narcissism

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Re: Best therapy for narcissism

Postby Akuma » Fri May 31, 2019 3:09 pm

Philonoe wrote:I can relate with that.

Do you think it's generally as a caregiver? There are other "reverted" roles a child can receive. Like seductor, decision maker, etc.


I'd think its any role inversion that is unnatural to the childs development level. I used "caregiver" because Greebo used that word to describe his role.

Can you explain that sentence?


Well if you're the parent, then you are the giver. So you are in a position where there is no need, needs are suppressed because of caring for your siblings or your mother. If anything the others have to trust you, that you prepare meals, that you wake up your siblings, that you roll mother to the side so she doesnt choke on her vomit again. In a way often the child will be in a position like this, because it has already learned that the parent can't be trusted with certain things, forcing the kid into this unnatural role at too early an age.
One could also explain it from the perspective of identification, the lower the age or developmental lvel, the more basic will the imitation of a parental image be, and the more grandiose will it seem. So when you are constnatly acting like you are omniscient, omnipotent parent, where would there b space for trust? Something which requires you to realize there is a need to trust, which again requires to to acknowledge needs etc.

Have you a (if possible not too difficult) text about it?


Hmm there's a whole book about it, but I gotta check if theres some part that is quotable somewhere that is easy.
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Re: Best therapy for narcissism

Postby Akuma » Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:19 am

Have you a (if possible not too difficult) text about it?


Ok this book I was thinking about, while writing a lot about the subject, actually just glazes over the pathogenesis and is very specifically Kleinian, which might be irritating to a lot of readers.
Luckily Kernberg has a summary which might be sufficient.

Kernberg, Otto - Borderline States and Pathological Narcissism, 231 wrote:I propose that a process of refusion of the internalized self
and object images does occur in: the narcissistic personality at a
level of development at which ego boundaries have already
become stable. At this point, there is a fusion of ideal self, ideal
object, and actual self images as a defense against an intolerable
reality in the interpersonal realm, with a concomitant devaluation
and destruction of object images as well as of external
objects. In their fantasies, these patients identify themselves
with their own ideal self images in order to deny normal
dependency on external objects and on the internalized
representations of the external objects. It is as if they were
saying, "I do not need to fear that I will be rejected for not living
up to the ideal of myself which alone makes it possible forme to
be loved by the ideal person I imagine would love me. That ideal
person and my ideal image of that person and my real self are all
one, and better than the ideal person whom I wanted to love me,
so that I do not need anybody else any more." In other words,
the normal tension between actual self on the one hand, and
ideal self and ideal object on the other, is eliminated by the
building up of an inflated self concept within which the actual
self and the ideal self and ideal object are confused.
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Re: Best therapy for narcissism

Postby AProphet » Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:17 am

Means you have a true (actual) self hidden down somewhere.
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Re: Best therapy for narcissism

Postby GadSitar » Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:36 pm

AProphet wrote:Means you have a true (actual) self hidden down somewhere.


Akuma doesn't believe in the true self.
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Re: Best therapy for narcissism

Postby Philonoe » Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:53 am

Akuma wrote:
I'd think its any role inversion that is unnatural to the childs development level. I used "caregiver" because Greebo used that word to describe his role.

ok


Well if you're the parent, then you are the giver. So you are in a position where there is no need, needs are suppressed because of caring for your siblings or your mother. If anything the others have to trust you, that you prepare meals, that you wake up your siblings, that you roll mother to the side so she doesnt choke on her vomit again. In a way often the child will be in a position like this, because it has already learned that the parent can't be trusted with certain things, forcing the kid into this unnatural role at too early an age.

ok. On one side, the child has to do task that are not child's tasks. On the other hand, he is not "contained" so nobody holds him be practically, emotionally or anything. Nobody to draw borders where one can be quiet inside and have needs met

One could also explain it from the perspective of identification, the lower the age or developmental lvel, the more basic will the imitation of a parental image be, and the more grandiose will it seem. So when you are constnatly acting like you are omniscient, omnipotent parent, where would there b space for trust? Something which requires you to realize there is a need to trust, which again requires to to acknowledge needs etc.

ok.


Thank you for that.

-- Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:56 am --

Akuma wrote:Ok this book I was thinking about, while writing a lot about the subject, actually just glazes over the pathogenesis and is very specifically Kleinian, which might be irritating to a lot of readers.

It's ok if not too difficult.


Kernberg, Otto - Borderline States and Pathological Narcissism, 231 wrote:I propose that a process of refusion of the internalized self
and object images does occur in: the narcissistic personality at a
level of development at which ego boundaries have already
become stable. At this point, there is a fusion of ideal self, ideal
object, and actual self images as a defense against an intolerable
reality in the interpersonal realm, with a concomitant devaluation
and destruction of object images as well as of external
objects. In their fantasies, these patients identify themselves
with their own ideal self images in order to deny normal
dependency on external objects and on the internalized
representations of the external objects. It is as if they were
saying, "I do not need to fear that I will be rejected for not living
up to the ideal of myself which alone makes it possible forme to
be loved by the ideal person I imagine would love me. That ideal
person and my ideal image of that person and my real self are all
one, and better than the ideal person whom I wanted to love me,
so that I do not need anybody else any more." In other words,
the normal tension between actual self on the one hand, and
ideal self and ideal object on the other, is eliminated by the
building up of an inflated self concept within which the actual
self and the ideal self and ideal object are confused.

For me , this looks more like the "classical" image of narcissism. About ideal love etc.
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Re: Best therapy for narcissism

Postby Philonoe » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:35 am

I'm curious of which sort of environment tend to create narcissistic issues.

Not only internal dynamics but external.
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Re: Best therapy for narcissism

Postby Greebo » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:06 am

The pathogenesis of Npd isn’t known so there is no conclusive answer to that.

As akuma’s post basically says. Kernberg’s view of NPD is a defence to compensate for early developmental arrest. PwNPD failed to developer integrated self and other object-images, their object representations are split into all good and all bad. They compensate by fusing ideal self, ideal object and self-image, which limits the identity diffusion and unstable emotionality, permits greater continuity of experience and social adaptation but also distorts reality. This wacky chimera is the core of NPD.

He holds that developmentally care takers are likely to be cold and indifferent, perhaps to the point of seeming implicitly aggressive or spiteful. This causes the formation of an inferior or inadequate self concept and sets the child up to develope some means of pathological self esteem regulation. The family then supplies the child with some kind of saving defence mechanism by finding in the child some exceptional talent which becomes a refuge for the Inferior self and offsetting parental neglect or rejection. If circumstances don’t allow the development of an integrated or normal self identity, the grandiose self is the next best bet as it is the self which caregivers are willing to accept. The child then takes up the role surrounding this special talent as a means to regulate self esteem in a family environment devoid of genuine warmth or love.

Freud’s earlier theory was that pathological narcissism developed due to parental overvaluation where the parents “ascribe to the child all manner of perfections which sober observation would not confirm, to gloss over and forget all his shortcomings. [even] the laws of nature, like those of society, are to be abrogated in his favour.” Basically parents who live vicariously through their kids and regard them in a highly idealised manner where the child learns they are loved for imaginary qualities rather than their true self.

Kohut I’m not so familiar with but from my limited understanding it basically works something like this: You start in a blissful state of unawareness called primary narcissism where no self exists. As the child begins life with a caregiver which responds to his/her needs, the infant realises rewards come not from inside but the external world. They develop self objects - perceptual interpretations of others as they are important to the self. In the beginning the infant expects perfect nurturing which no parent can hope to provide, and the child begins to feel uncertain that their needs will be met, which in turn leads to sensations of overwhelming vulnerability. To compensate the child seeks return to the bliss of primary narcissim by idealising the parent and developing a grandiose self. [note that everything up to this point is normal.] As empathy develops the grandiose self will be slowly given up and the incessant infantile demands are gradually transformed into realistic ambitions. NPD occurs when caregiver empathy at this stage is grossly defective and the grandiose self continues as a defence against the vulnerabilities of an unkind world. Major difference between this and kernbergs approach is that the grandiose self here is a normal developmental state which someone gets locked in rather than a pathological intrapsychic structure.
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Re: Best therapy for narcissism

Postby Akuma » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:24 am

Philonoe wrote:I'm curious of which sort of environment tend to create narcissistic issues.

Not only internal dynamics but external.


Well in the abstract sense narcissistic issues are created by any environment that failt to support a healthy self-development.

More concretely the only thing I have here is

PARENTING AS A CAUSE OF NARCISSISM
Empirical Support for Psychodynamic
and Social Learning Theories
Robert S. Horton

Which seems not published as a seperate paper (?).

There are two available writings by him though ->

http://www.sakkyndig.com/psykologi/artv ... on2011.pdf
http://www.sakkyndig.com/psykologi/artv ... on2006.pdf
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Re: Best therapy for narcissism

Postby Cassandre » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:32 am

Greebo wrote:Major difference between this and kernbergs approach is that the grandiose self here is a normal developmental state which someone gets locked in rather than a pathological intrapsychic structure.


I probably should double check but I thought that both Kernberg and Kohut considered grandiosity a normal developmental state.

But that Kohut thought of adult grandiosity as similar to infantile grandiosity, while Kernberg thought of adult narcissism as infantile narcissism gone awry - since children can form deep bonds.

Which is why I have not been trusting Kohut. His views seemed naive.
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Re: Best therapy for narcissism

Postby Greebo » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:07 am

I used ‘Object relations theory and psychopathology” by Frank Summers to fact check that post, including the part quoted. Having had a brief look I can find similar remarks in Millon’s book and on wiki, but you should check for yourself, I’m just a crank on the Internet after all.

I don’t have the necessary knowledge or personal experience (the number of people i’ve actually met, even professionally, diagnosed with NPD I could probably count on one hand) to critique the theories on a psychological level.
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