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Best therapy for narcissism

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Re: Best therapy for narcissism

Postby GadSitar » Sun May 26, 2019 1:47 pm

ZeroZ wrote:I’d imagine it would take some doing to complete cut through an ear.


It was a piece of it. Not the whole thing. But definitely a chunk of it was cut off...
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Re: Best therapy for narcissism

Postby Greebo » Sun May 26, 2019 5:14 pm

xdude wrote:
ZeroZ wrote:That’s exactly how it happens, in my case it was that my father was so unpredictable from one minute to the next that even seemingly nice things could be turned around on you to teach some sort of sadistic lesson. The guard could never be completely let down. It also makes it impossible to see the world in any other way than you have to kill or be killed


This is also something my sibling and I talked about yesterday. That unpredictability is a key matter. In our case it was a mom, but either way, when it's a constant switch between am I going to hurt you now (or toss you under the bus), or treat you okay for a moment, yea, your guard is going to go up.

Xdude and Z, if you were to take a guess what would estimate the frequency of these bouts of unpredictable nastiness?

My own mother was somewhat volcanic when it came to her temper. 90% of the time she was a very good parent but once in a while she’d blow up and there would be no reasoning with her. Probably complicated by the fact that my mother is physically disabled and I spent a sizeable chunk of my childhood looking after her. The bouts were relatively infrequent though, certainly no more than once a month with the severe ones much rarer. They were more disturbing because of their frenetic quality, the fact the triggers were completely unpredictable and her tendency to construct weird reasons for something relatively innocuous. the rest of the time she was extremely well grounded, the issues was more that she used to sit on and suppress things that were getting to her until it became to much and they’d be an eruption. None of my attempts to get her to talk about things when they get to her, now or as a child, was ever very successful. She won’t say when she was sick either so I spent a lot of my childhood monitoring her for any signs that something was off kilter.
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Re: Best therapy for narcissism

Postby Akuma » Sun May 26, 2019 5:52 pm

I have trouble with memory but here it was an oscillation between a very withdrawn grandmother who would become angry also at stuff and in circumstances that are totally unclear to me even today and a fundamentalist christian grandfather who had a rather choleric side to him. In terms of frequency though I dont have a full enough memory, I'd say 1-2 weeks? Or something.
I think a factor is also that at a certain point there is no trust, there is actually a weird combination of fearing a person you have to kind of endure - and who oscillates between lack of interest and being angry with you?
dx: dissociative disorder + npd
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Re: Best therapy for narcissism

Postby xdude » Sun May 26, 2019 6:13 pm

Greebo wrote:Xdude and Z, if you were to take a guess what would estimate the frequency of these bouts of unpredictable nastiness?


Even that was random lol (the bad kind of lol).

Could be weeks, days, and as my sibling just said to me, hours. Also it wasn't always overt, it could be covert too. I've written about this before, but it's a classic example, and will keep it short.

A boy 2 years older than me (and so also stronger and heavier) use to beat me up regularly. He was a bully, just got a kick out of it. Mom would get an ice pack and that was it. Thanks, sort of, but not really (again the bad lol). One day I finally had enough and beat him to a pulp. I don't remember the details, just sort of going into a trance and completely lost it. I got a long guilt trip for that, 'you hurt that boy, you sent him to the hospital, blah blah.' He never beat me up again, but where was all that concern about health when I was getting beaten? Overt abuse. A guilt trip for defending myself, which of course is the right thing to do, but to this day I feel some stupid guilt/shame over it. Those guilt trips were our norm.

I have little doubt that most if not all compensatory (whatever word is preferred) narcissists have been psychologically abused, and also learned, hush, just suck it up, and probably learned, feel guilt/shame over feeling abused so that you don't fight back.
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Re: Best therapy for narcissism

Postby ZeroZ » Sun May 26, 2019 6:43 pm

Greebo wrote:
xdude wrote:
ZeroZ wrote:That’s exactly how it happens, in my case it was that my father was so unpredictable from one minute to the next that even seemingly nice things could be turned around on you to teach some sort of sadistic lesson. The guard could never be completely let down. It also makes it impossible to see the world in any other way than you have to kill or be killed


This is also something my sibling and I talked about yesterday. That unpredictability is a key matter. In our case it was a mom, but either way, when it's a constant switch between am I going to hurt you now (or toss you under the bus), or treat you okay for a moment, yea, your guard is going to go up.

Xdude and Z, if you were to take a guess what would estimate the frequency of these bouts of unpredictable nastiness?


It’s really hard to say, there would be decent stretches where I was treated ok, but he was always fighting with someone. Overall I’d say atleast once or twice a week that I can remember. I think they were a lot more frequent when I was really young because I believe there was an element of drug abuse in addition to the alcohol. The only time he was genuinely nice to me involved my sports, baseball, American football specifically. I think he was trying to relive his youth through me.
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Re: Best therapy for narcissism

Postby Greebo » Tue May 28, 2019 1:49 am

Tried to reconcile my own experience with the kind often described here, particularly akuma’s loss of trust and found that I can’t. If anything I was too close to my mother not the other way around, it was often the fact that she was upset, rather than that she was upset at me that caused me most distress. This was after all someone I spent a considerable amount of time protecting and looking after. That said ablebodied child - disabled parent relationships have a reputation for being a bit weird. The caregiver role would go on to characterise most of my early relationships sometimes to my own detriment, whether it was engaging the pw trauma/developmental problems my father worked with, or befriending and keeping the oddballs at school out of harms way. There wasn’t ever really a time when I doubted that I was cared about by my parents. The more normal mainstream people were a different matter.

Also from my own perspective it would be unrealistic to ask more of my mother. Whatever her failings, the good always outweighed the bad and she did sacrifice a lot for me. Equally understanding the things she herself was going through I find myself unable to condemn her. It’s also worth noting that my mother is quite apologetic for any harm she might have caused me during my childhood which I imagine is somewhat unusual in this place. I think there is only so much that can be reasonably expected of parents, and that I would be exceeding that if I were to demand more of mine.

ZeroZ wrote:Not to derail this thread but after having what is triggering my uneasiness in certain social situations described as hyper vigilance, I’ve heard the term thrown around a lot on here but I did some research to really try to see if this could be the case or not and as I fell down the rabbit hole of endless information, I noticed BPD and PTSD or c-ptsd as the most common causes of this. After reading through PTSD I started to wonder C-PTSD in particular could get confused with other disorders specifically BPD and NPD.


Hypervigilance is a symptom with a lot of causes, in the case of being ingrained in someone’s personality the term paranoia is probably more appropriate.

In answer to your question, C-PTSD doesn’t currently have an accepted diagnostic guideline, you cannot be officially diagnosed with it outside a small number of countries. Some psychologists use it as a non stigmatic label for a PD, others use it to describe the effect extreme repetitive trauma has on a fully developed. On the most simplistic level it is a hybrid of PD and trauma disorder. C-PTSD and BPD are notorious for being mixed up. Add to that the sheer tonnage of rubbish on the internet by with self diagnosing cranks and it all gets very confused.
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Re: Best therapy for narcissism

Postby Akuma » Tue May 28, 2019 5:07 am

Greebo wrote:Tried to reconcile my own experience with the kind often described here, particularly akuma’s loss of trust and found that I can’t. If anything I was too close to my mother not the other way around, it was often the fact that she was upset, rather than that she was upset at me that caused me most distress. This was after all someone I spent a considerable amount of time protecting and looking after. That said ablebodied child - disabled parent relationships have a reputation for being a bit weird. The caregiver role would go on to characterise most of my early relationships sometimes to my own detriment, whether it was engaging the pw trauma/developmental problems my father worked with, or befriending and keeping the oddballs at school out of harms way. There wasn’t ever really a time when I doubted that I was cared about by my parents. The more normal mainstream people were a different matter.


When I read this correctly I think this actually describes the dynamic that xdude has described in another thread and also that I've (possibly) described about me and my grandmother (and possibly mother) pretty well. Namely an overburdening of a kid with a caregiver role, or a role where you are valued by what you are doing for others. In such a relation theres not much space for trust - because it always appears like there is no need.
If we take the specifics of it not as seriously, then it also resonates with NPD formation, which is after all described by most theorists as a form of identification with parental images.
dx: dissociative disorder + npd
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Re: Best therapy for narcissism

Postby Greebo » Tue May 28, 2019 4:35 pm

Akuma wrote:When I read this correctly I think this actually describes the dynamic that xdude has described in another thread and also that I've (possibly) described about me and my grandmother (and possibly mother) pretty well. Namely an overburdening of a kid with a caregiver role, or a role where you are valued by what you are doing for others. In such a relation theres not much space for trust - because it always appears like there is no need.

In so far as I can tell you’re reading in a dynamic which is neither described nor implicit in the text.

To the best of my knowledge I was never overburdened nor was being valued ever conditional on providing care. I get the impression you’re viewing me as a child forced into an adult role by unforgiving circumstances which is not really the case and is probably a little diminishing to those that did grow up like that. I don’t agree that children who grow up under those conditions specifically go on to develop NPD either, but that’s a different matter.
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Re: Best therapy for narcissism

Postby Cassandre » Thu May 30, 2019 1:05 am

It might depend on how they were rewarded for taking care of other(s). If they were flattered into thinking that, say, their care-taking abilities placed them above children of a similar age, while having their own age-appropriate needs ignored, then it might lead to narcissism.

xdude wrote:I have little doubt that most if not all compensatory (whatever word is preferred) narcissists have been psychologically abused, and also learned, hush, just suck it up, and probably learned, feel guilt/shame over feeling abused so that you don't fight back.


yes, but that is not enough to make a narcissist, otherwise compensatory narcissism would equate BPD or c-PTSD, or else.

To me, it seems crucial to take the measure of how you've been abused. A lot of narcissists whom I've been acquainted with, struggle to see themselves as victims at all, for a variety of reasons. It's a tragedy. So that's a crucial step of course, but it is also a double-edged sword since the disorder is also quick to snatch excuses to get itself of the hook.
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Re: Best therapy for narcissism

Postby Philonoe » Fri May 31, 2019 11:45 am

Akuma wrote:Namely an overburdening of a kid with a caregiver role, or a role where you are valued by what you are doing for others.

I can relate with that.

Do you think it's generally as a caregiver? There are other "reverted" roles a child can receive. Like seductor, decision maker, etc.

I relate with the care giver. As the jongest, having to take care of the others. Which highens your responsibility ot an unbearable level. You think you are responsible of the world, and that you are overpowered. The relief being accepting that you are small. And limited.

In such a relation theres not much space for trust - because it always appears like there is no need.

Can you explain that sentence?


If we take the specifics of it not as seriously, then it also resonates with NPD formation, which is after all described by most theorists as a form of identification with parental images.

Have you a (if possible not too difficult) text about it?
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