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Thoughts on malignant narcissists/psychopaths?

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Thoughts on malignant narcissists/psychopaths?

Postby TheUnknownofall » Tue May 14, 2019 6:50 pm

I understand even mentioning both of them as one is confusing.

As I see many psychologists have debates it seems if one is "higer or lower" than the other in scale.

I see it as a combo of Aspd and narcissism, but that may create another problem.
After all isn't one with Aspd a secrative narcissist? In the sense they only care for themselves?
Yet the diffrence is one is born, the other is created by events.

Altough both seems to have diffrent traits, say a psychopath has less empathy then a sociopath/aspd.

Again, there seems to be a lot of debate about the terms.

Anyhow, what do you guys think?
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Re: Thoughts on malignant narcissists/psychopaths?

Postby AProphet » Tue May 14, 2019 7:13 pm

TheUnknownofall wrote:Altough both seems to have diffrent traits, say a psychopath has less empathy then a sociopath/aspd.


both have NO empathy, and the psychopath has no feelings, not even fear. Every psychopath is a narcissist, in the sense that they care only about themselves. But not the other way arround.
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Re: Thoughts on malignant narcissists/psychopaths?

Postby TheUnknownofall » Tue May 14, 2019 10:37 pm

User465393 wrote:
TheUnknownofall wrote:Altough both seems to have diffrent traits, say a psychopath has less empathy then a sociopath/aspd.


both have NO empathy, and the psychopath has no feelings, not even fear. Every psychopath is a narcissist, in the sense that they care only about themselves. But not the other way arround.


Well, I heard other people say people with ASPD have a switch since its not by nature that they have no empathy.
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Re: Thoughts on malignant narcissists/psychopaths?

Postby Akuma » Wed May 15, 2019 6:36 am

Its very individual and the definitions are used differently. Some pwASPD can switch empathy on and off, some experts say its a spectrum NPD<->ASPD, some say it aint, as to pathogenesis no consensus seems to exist, but I dont know much about ASPD.
I'd look into scholar.google.com and other sources if you want such data. For more personal inquiries, we do have a ASPD forum which is best suited for questions about ASPD.
dx: dissociative disorder + npd
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Re: Thoughts on malignant narcissists/psychopaths?

Postby ZeroZ » Thu May 16, 2019 11:47 am

The model that makes the most sense to me that I’ve seen is ASPD is basis behavioral diagnosis, so you are likely to get diagnosed with that if you are continually breaking the law and “violthe right of other” which could be violence or stealing from them etc. So you could have a wide range of people diagnosed with it, psychopathy is a very strict set of personality traits some of which overlap with ASPD but a lot are specific to psychopaths like being glib, superficially charming, manipulative, callous and unemotional. Which you wouldn’t necessarily see in ASPD. I’m not sure about malignant narcissism, I’m sure it would look a lot like psychopathy in a lot of ways.
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Re: Thoughts on malignant narcissists/psychopaths?

Postby SelfSerf » Tue May 21, 2019 7:40 pm

Well, seeing as with neither of them, therapy does not really carry any success, they are somewhat interchangeable. The main difference being that the former still deeply needs others' acceptance (i.e like a sociopath) and does not fare well with any information or when confronted with anything that makes him look in a bad light. Also, the ways a pw/ NPD-ASPD might interact with others, might arise more from the subconscious, as opposed to a psychopath whose considerations, I would assume, arise straight from a more conscious mode of deliberation.

I personally often rely on others to actually feel like I exist. If I spend a lot of alone time, I often get this sense of unbeing which I guess is more of a characteristic of BPD/cNPD's response to lack of validation. Nowadays I am more aware that the things I say to people are not really what I truly mean but say it to reflect better on myself somehow and might find myself thoroughly deliberating what exactly I say and how I come across to people. There's not too much thought beforehand though, everything is quite in the moment.
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Re: Thoughts on malignant narcissists/psychopaths?

Postby AProphet » Tue May 21, 2019 7:48 pm

SelfSerf wrote:The main difference being that the former still deeply needs others' acceptance (i.e like a sociopath) and does not fare well with any information or when confronted with anything that makes him look in a bad light.


Are you saying a sociopath needs others acceptance and cares what others think?
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Re: Thoughts on malignant narcissists/psychopaths?

Postby SelfSerf » Wed May 22, 2019 9:07 am

AProphet wrote:
SelfSerf wrote:The main difference being that the former still deeply needs others' acceptance (i.e like a sociopath) and does not fare well with any information or when confronted with anything that makes him look in a bad light.


Are you saying a sociopath needs others acceptance and cares what others think?


Actually no, that was not my intention. I guess by a psychiatric evalutation, sociopaths don't but sociopathic narcissists do. I should have written in brackets -(similar to a sociopath)-, as in, they don't look for acceptance and recognition like narcissists but losing the respect or admiration of others is more for practical reasons (i.e. not being able to continue doing something, losing options). Both are image-focused but the sociopath less so and more comfortable in his (because that's the majority) skin. But not all pure sociopaths are the same and neither are sociopathic narcissists, they're still individuals.
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Re: Thoughts on malignant narcissists/psychopaths?

Postby xdude » Wed May 22, 2019 11:02 am

Akuma wrote:...some experts say its a spectrum NPD<->ASPD, some say it aint, as to pathogenesis no consensus seems to exist, but I dont know much about ASPD. ...


That's my personal impression, it's a spectrum, and AsPD is an even more extreme version of NPD. No I have no proof to back that up, just a where I landed in trying to make sense of it, but I am aware too that NPD is different than AsPD.

I worked with AsPD types for a decade plus, and the way they think is different than NPD, but these are all labels, and it's complex. Unfortunately the labels may remain murky indefinitely. We can see that a bone is broken now, thanks to x-rays and other visible signs and label the severity (to whatever degree it matters), but when it comes to psychology, it remains a murky field. Something else that mucks it up is the AsPD umbrella covers sociopaths and psychopaths and not everyone agrees on the definitions. My personal definition is that sociopaths won't feel empathy, and psychopaths cannot feel empathy, but that's nothing but a personal definition. It just means that the former has shut off empathy toward others, and the later has a physical reason why they cannot (a difference in their brain structure).

There is a difference in my mind between NPD and AsPD, but also, I do personally believe it's understandable why someone diagnosing cannot differentiate, and so may diagnose both labels, a combination.

That written, I do think that AProphet is on the right track (again this is just my own view, it's not fact), that AsPD types also can appear to be NPD types, and they do believe they are above (or outside) the norm.

For whatever it's worth, I also believe someone who is NPD may eventually choose therapy, or to make some changes, but with AsPD, probably not. It could happen but the odds are very low. My own, probably flawed, understanding is that NPD type still have feelings, but with AsPD it's different, they have so shut those feelings off or can't, that there is no motive to enable them. A poor analogy, but for them it's like having a super-power, say x-ray vision, and who would want to give up a super power? That's not entirely correct but good enough for a submit ;)
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Re: Thoughts on malignant narcissists/psychopaths?

Postby ZeroZ » Wed May 22, 2019 1:08 pm

I also wonder if there have been any studies to look into if certain types of abuse are responsible for different adaptations, NPD vs ASPD? For instance I would think that NPD is more of a product of neglect, mental abuse and shaming and embarrassment by the caregiver, the child feeling his needs unmet.

Where I think ASPD is more of a product of physical abuse, the few I’ve know who were high on the psychopathy/sociopathy spectrum including my father were all abused physically as child for most of their lives. One guy I knew had his front teeth knocked out of his head for talking back to his father when he was like 13 years old.
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