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Learning empathy from the heartbreak cont.

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Learning empathy from the heartbreak cont.

Postby AProphet » Sat May 04, 2019 9:06 pm

Am I being uncivil or insane or smth? Feelings are just that. They are uncontrollable. pwNPD doesnt have that.
Only I guess NI is uncontrollable. You have intrusive thoughts of the situation all the time. Thinking about it is paralyzing, realy painfull. Breaks your focus all the time. It comes back in dreams. It lasts for a long time, but nowhere near as intense negative (genuine) emotions.
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Re: Learning empathy from the heartbreak cont.

Postby AProphet » Mon May 06, 2019 1:28 am

Another side effect. The photographic memory dissapears after feeling out the emotion. Cant bring back the vivid image anymore. Also should mention, at the begining stages of learning empathy I had sort of a brain error, where I literally saw myself as her confessing love, and other situations. Like stronger than me. Me AS the other person in the photographic memory. I feared it might stay that way. Error like that. I think its unconscious pre-self awareness. Can someone confirm pwNPD has this photographic memory of mental state, or "emotional resonance tables"?
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Re: Learning empathy from the heartbreak cont.

Postby realityhere » Mon May 06, 2019 2:00 am

"Feelings are just that. They are uncontrollable. pwNPD doesnt have that."

You say that feelings are uncontrollable. What do you mean by "a pwNPD doesn't have that"? Do you mean that a pwNPD doesn't have feelings to begin with or do you mean a pwNPD doesn't have control over his feelings? Or something else? Pls clarify.

As to "photographic memory" side effect, there have been previous posts here about pwNPD having a vivid instance of empathy, but that it dissipates quickly. May be a recollection of how the pwNPD once felt as a child, lost from neglect or abuse by a parent/caregiver (who demanded perfection to reflect on her), and was able to briefly relate to an object of constancy (the loyal girl) because his mother wasn't? Unfortunately, when the disorder starts talking, the idealization gives way to devaluation.
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Re: Learning empathy from the heartbreak cont.

Postby AProphet » Mon May 06, 2019 2:11 am

realityhere wrote:You say that feelings are uncontrollable. What do you mean by "a pwNPD doesn't have that"? Do you mean that a pwNPD doesn't have feelings to begin with or do you mean a pwNPD doesn't have control over his feelings? Or something else?


I mentioned this before, In the previous thread. I mean that the false self has no genuine feelings of its own. It decides what its apropriate to feel and simulates the emotion and its afect, the physical sensation. Those are NOT the same feelings that other people have. You can switch from one emotion to another in an instant and positive ones come bundled with negative ones. Also deeper emotions like remorse, disgust etc. are totally unaccesable to pwNPD.

The photographic memory is NOT empathy. Its performed by the false self. Empathy is performed by the true self. But it does instantly discern your mental state, even with slightest gaze, the corner of the eye I learned. It keeps records of this threw life.


realityhere wrote:object of constancy (the loyal girl) because his mother wasn't? Unfortunately, when the disorder starts talking, the idealization gives way to devaluation.


This just doesnt make sence.
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Re: Learning empathy from the heartbreak cont.

Postby AProphet » Mon May 06, 2019 3:07 am

But I get what your trying to say. The disorder becomes pathological in the early twenties. I knew one girl was in love with me when I was 16 (long long after she was, but still knew). But object constancy, (also called whole object relations) is a totally different thing - that when mommy dissapears from sight she still exists. pwNPD doesnt develop that. Its extremely difficult to understand causality, or that actions have consequences without this. Everything that happens seems random. pwNPD is just an automaton, not a thinking, feeling person, it just reacts.
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Re: Learning empathy from the heartbreak cont.

Postby SelfSerf » Mon May 06, 2019 2:41 pm

AcidProphet wrote:But I get what your trying to say. The disorder becomes pathological in the early twenties. I knew one girl was in love with me when I was 16 (long long after she was, but still knew). But object constancy, (also called whole object relations) is a totally different thing - that when mommy dissapears from sight she still exists. pwNPD doesnt develop that. Its extremely difficult to understand causality, or that actions have consequences without this. Everything that happens seems random. pwNPD is just an automaton, not a thinking, feeling person, it just reacts.


I must say, this is one of the more sensible posts you´ve made. :roll:

I forget, did borderlines also lack object constancy? Because of splitting, they do right?
“Should I kill myself, or have a cup of coffee?”
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Re: Learning empathy from the heartbreak cont.

Postby AProphet » Mon May 06, 2019 2:58 pm

Thank you selfserf. I did learn everything about the disorder that I could, for what its worth.

Im not using terminology of splitting (we talked with Akuma about this). Im using the true/false self for two reasons:
1.Becouse its exactly how I experianced the disorder. And becouse Vaknin uses this terminology, I watched him read from his book and I respect his insight, he said all narcissists are essentialy the same. It was like he was reading from me.
2. Becouse the distinction makes sence. The true (vunlerable) self has feelings that can be hurt. The false self is infallible, only vulnerable to narcissistc injury. Its one OR the other. When I was my weak true self, in love with her, the four year old boy, the false self was lashing out, making her hate me - it felt like YOU DONT KNOW WHERE THE THOUGHT IS COMING FROM. In that sence its like multiple personality disorder.

To answer your question. Yes BPD does lack it. And lack of it is characterized by extreme black or white thinking and lack of causality. Impossible to understand that a person loves you, but might be angry with something you did. Eaither totally devoted or worst enemy. But I cant answer whteher its becouse of splitting. I learned it before I knew there is a false self yet, by feeling out the love and the heartbreak while narcissistic supply defficient. The memories started coming back, making sence.
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Re: Learning empathy from the heartbreak cont.

Postby realityhere » Tue May 07, 2019 2:20 am

"When I was my weak true self, in love with her, the four year old boy, the false self was lashing out, making her hate me - it felt like YOU DONT KNOW WHERE THE THOUGHT IS COMING FROM. In that sence its like multiple personality disorder."

Just some difficult thoughts of my own here, and I don't mean to discount what you are suffering from...

Has it occurred to you that maybe you were seeking that object of constancy unto adulthood, who should have been your mother but who wasn't there for YOU as it was all about her instead, in this girl you speak of? Yet at the same time you viewed this girl as hating you the same as your mother did, because of your mother's behavior? That maybe it's your false-self lashing out at a female figure who you wanted to be a loving and attentive mother to you when you were a child, but couldn't? If she had the disorder herself, how could your mother have known how her family history shaped her personality? Do you understand the idealization/devaluation dynamic that I mentioned previously here?

I know, too many questions can get boggling, so answer what you can.
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Re: Learning empathy from the heartbreak cont.

Postby Akuma » Tue May 07, 2019 4:40 am

SelfSerf wrote:I forget, did borderlines also lack object constancy? Because of splitting, they do right?


I think the word has been mainly used by Kernberg, who has among other things has developed transference-focused-therapy for BPD.
In his view, there is a borderline structure as compared to a psychotic "structure" and a neurotic one. And the borderline one, among other things, uses primitive defenses more, like for example splitting and projection. He writes

Kernberg, Otto - Borderline States and Pathological Narcissism wrote:There are several significant structural consequences of
these primitive defensive operations set up to protect the ego
against unbearable conflict and the related pathology of
internalized object relationships. (...)
Fourth, a lack of integrated objectrepresentations
interferes ·with deepening of empathy with
others as individuals in their own right; lack of integration of
the self-concept further interferes with full emotional understanding
of other human beings; the end result is defective
object-constancy or incapacity to establish total object
relationships.


For him these structures can appear in all sorts of pathologies and can also appear mixed. He sees three different levels of NP for example in which only one is on the borderline level - afair.
dx: dissociative disorder + npd
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Re: Learning empathy from the heartbreak cont.

Postby AProphet » Tue May 07, 2019 8:41 am

realityhere wrote:in this girl you speak of? Yet at the same time you viewed this girl as hating you the same as your mother did, because of your mother's behavior? That maybe it's your false-self lashing out at a female figure who you wanted to be a loving and attentive mother to you when you were a child, but couldn't? If she had the disorder herself, how could your mother have known how her family history shaped her personality? Do you understand the idealization/devaluation dynamic that I mentioned previously here?
.

There were clear paralels between how I treated the girl amd how my mom treated me. If I were to sum up I would say "hates love and loves to be hated", I saw this before I understood clearly what happened. Thats what made me look for answers. In spiritual terms I would call that re-living my core wound, being hated by the one I loved. It was exteremely traumatic. Yes I understand the idealize, devalue, discard cycle. Thats exactly what I did to her, was stronger than me, didnt matter that Im in love, that I would be suffering without her, and that I would regret every word. Only the cycle mattered.

Here's a nice video explaining object constancy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uunT2JV5EtM
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