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Core values

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Re: Core values

Postby Spaced » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:54 pm

Kimera1 wrote:1. Are values something that you spend any measurable amount of time considering? Either in yourself or in others?


Not really. I don't usually care what someone's values are as long as it doesn't negatively affect me somehow. I rarely think about my own.

Kimera1 wrote:2. Do you find it relatively easy to pin down your own core values, or is it more like nailing Jello to the wall? If the latter, is it a problem?


I don't think I have any. I just go with whatever I'm feeling/thinking at the time. It can be a problem in that I feel a sense of unease in not having a solid foundation for my sense of identity.

Kimera1 wrote:3. Are there one or two values that you place great importance on when sizing up others? You can define “others” (friend, spouse/partner, mentor, etc). Any that you particularly admire in others?


I am usually too concerned with making a good impression to care about what other people think. However, I feel an aversion towards people who sleep around or allow themselves to become obese. This just made me realise that I value integrity. Although I also admire some people who have no integrity at all. Yeah, the doublethink is strong in me.

Kimera1 wrote:4. Are there one or two values that you place great importance on for yourself and your approach to life?


Nope.

Kimera1 wrote:[b]5. If people who knew you were to describe you, would they consistently name the characteristics you most value in yourself?


I have no idea.

Kimera1 wrote:7. Do you find that you generally behave in a way that’s consistent with your core values? If not, do the moments of inconsistency cause you to feel conflicted at any level?


My behaviour is driven by my instinct to do whatever I see as being most beneficial for me in that moment, or by my need to behave in a way that the other person would want or expect. This does not always benefit me.

Kimera1 wrote:8. Have you found yourself in a situation that made you question your core values? How did it go?


Only when answering questions like this, or when I'm in a group and others are reacting to bad/shocking news and I'm silently mulling over the fact that my total lack of empathy in that moment would cause them to reassess their opinion of me if I made it known.
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Re: Core values

Postby Kimera1 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:09 am

Spaced wrote:I am usually too concerned with making a good impression to care about what other people think.

This reads like an oxymoron. Not really sure what you meant to say here.

Spaced wrote:However, I feel an aversion towards people who sleep around or allow themselves to become obese. This just made me realise that I value integrity. Although I also admire some people who have no integrity at all. Yeah, the doublethink is strong in me.

Do you admire them despite a lack of integrity, or because of it?
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Re: Core values

Postby Greebo » Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:39 am

But innate capability is a thing, and effort will only get you so far. Not everyone is capable of creating theoretical frameworks, no matter how much effort they apply. Then again there are plenty of people who are capable but fundamentally lack the effort. That can be me at times.

Is innate capability a thing though? We’ve seem to have slipped into using that word and I sense that ‘capability’ is a loaded term for you, that it means something more significant than it does to me. What does capability mean to you?

My sense is that your concept of capability is an intrinsic trait that implies some kind of static internal worth. Mine on the other hand is a dynamic measure of someone or something’s ability to successfully reach a given objective at a given time and is dependent on a whole host of changeable factors. Traits of any stripe, in my view, are like an elaborate game of Rock Paper Scissors, that which helps in one situation hinders in another, but it is ultimately choice which defines us.

For more traditional innate traits such as intelligence or empathy, the academic community cannot reach a consensus as to their definition and we have no means to measure them directly. These are tenuous constructs whose presence we infer through behaviours. How do I go about objectively determining my own innate capability and then compare it to those of other people?

Equally you have to admit that while you claim to have little creative aptitude, if I give you some paper and a pen and ask you to write me a story, you will be able to do it. You may not find it easy or enjoyable and it may not be the next new york times bestseller, but you will be able to do it.

I was reflecting on this thread and realizing that I tend to omit artistic ability from my capability worldview because I have no skill in that arena. I'm trying to broaden my view to also include things I don't do well. Humbling.
Do you ever wonder if in counteracting the effects of NPD you ever go too far the other way? That you end up foisting new values on yourself purely because they are antithetical to your current view?
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Re: Core values

Postby Greebo » Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:36 am

The other question I should have asked is what does it mean to you, not to be innately capable?
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Re: Core values

Postby Kimera1 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:25 pm

Greebo wrote:Is innate capability a thing though? We’ve seem to have slipped into using that word and I sense that ‘capability’ is a loaded term for you, that it means something more significant than it does to me. What does capability mean to you?

Greebo wrote:The other question I should have asked is what does it mean to you, not to be innately capable?

Ok, I see your point. Capability is a vague term and somewhat problematic as it implies a binary function – either you are capable or you’re not. That wasn't my intention.

Greebo wrote:Equally you have to admit that while you claim to have little creative aptitude, if I give you some paper and a pen and ask you to write me a story, you will be able to do it. You may not find it easy or enjoyable and it may not be the next new york times bestseller, but you will be able to do it.

I can also belt out a song, but no one is ever going to pay me to sing in a Broadway musical. In fact, they would be more likely to pay me not to sing. This won't change no matter how much training I receive or effort I put in.

I have a better chance of making the NYT Best Sellers list than I do of making the cast of Les Mis as my ability to write exceeds my ability to sing. If becoming a published author was something that interested me (it’s not), I think I’d have a reasonable chance. Quite frankly I’d rather be a lead singer in a rock band. C’est dommage. 8)

Greebo wrote:For more traditional innate traits such as intelligence or empathy, the academic community cannot reach a consensus as to their definition and we have no means to measure them directly. These are tenuous constructs whose presence we infer through behaviours. How do I go about objectively determining my own innate capability and then compare it to those of other people?

With all due respect to academia, the ability of the academic community to define and measure something doesn’t determine whether that something exists. I think we can agree that intelligence, compassion (I dislike the term empathy due to the context on PF), and love all exist regardless of our ability to agree on a definition and measure them. Or are you suggesting they don’t?

But yes, your point about objective measurement is well taken. Skill level can be assessed, but what’s being measured is an outcome that is influenced by multiple factors, not just innate ability.

Greebo wrote:My sense is that your concept of capability is an intrinsic trait that implies some kind of static internal worth. Mine on the other hand is a dynamic measure of someone or something’s ability to successfully reach a given objective at a given time and is dependent on a whole host of changeable factors. Traits of any stripe, in my view, are like an elaborate game of Rock Paper Scissors, that which helps in one situation hinders in another, but it is ultimately choice which defines us.

That’s not entirely accurate. I agree that I’ve attached worth to innate ability, but I think that’s a societal dynamic as well. Just look at what happens to athletes who show promise in high school and how they are coveted by top universities. What you didn’t say is that I’ve over-indexed on applying that value, which I’ve already admitted to. But my thinking about ability incorporates your view as well so it’s not as black and white as you’re painting it. So far I see the difference in our stance is that you’re not acknowledging that people are born with different innate skills. I get the sense that you see people as starting with a level playing field – no innate advantage on skills or abilities. The advantage is shaped later by other internal or external factors. Is that right?

Greebo wrote:Do you ever wonder if in counteracting the effects of NPD you ever go too far the other way? That you end up foisting new values on yourself purely because they are antithetical to your current view?

Yes. It’s a bit of a pendulum but I think it will sort itself out in time. :|
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Re: Core values

Postby Kimera1 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:39 pm

Greebo wrote:Do you ever wonder if in counteracting the effects of NPD you ever go too far the other way? That you end up foisting new values on yourself purely because they are antithetical to your current view?

Why did you ask?
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Re: Core values

Postby Greebo » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:25 am

Kimera1 wrote:With all due respect to academia, the ability of the academic community to define and measure something doesn’t determine whether that something exists. I think we can agree that intelligence, compassion (I dislike the term empathy due to the context on PF), and love all exist regardless of our ability to agree on a definition and measure them. Or are you suggesting they don’t?
I’m saying that they are real in the sense that social class is real. I.e. that they are unempirical, relative arbitrary contrivances, or at least the terms/concepts we use to describe them are.

You can’t get at them objectively. you can define them in multiple ways with little empirical or rational basis. A behaviour which one person, group or culture perceives as indicative of an ‘innate capability’ another may perceive otherwise. etc.

That’s not entirely accurate. I agree that I’ve attached worth to innate ability, but I think that’s a societal dynamic as well. Just look at what happens to athletes who show promise in high school and how they are coveted by top universities. What you didn’t say is that I’ve over-indexed on applying that value, which I’ve already admitted to. But my thinking about ability incorporates your view as well so it’s not as black and white as you’re painting it. So far I see the difference in our stance is that you’re not acknowledging that people are born with different innate skills. I get the sense that you see people as starting with a level playing field – no innate advantage on skills or abilities. The advantage is shaped later by other internal or external factors. Is that right?
No, I agree that people are born with a wide array of traits which may help or hinder. I just don’t think that they are deterministic in anything other than extreme cases. I think dyslexic people become famous authors, that a disabled person can summit Everest, and that the world has given Bob Dylan a great deal of money to sing.

I guess my position could be summarised by the Edison quote: Genius is one percent inspiration, ninety-nine percent perspiration.

Beyond that I don’t think innate traits have any value/ethical worth. A high score on an IQ test doesn’t make you superior any more than being high born does or than being born with a disability or learning difficulty makes you inferior. Personal achievement/worth is a matter of distance travelled and direction chosen, not destination reached. That’s me explaining my own perspective and why I might come across as dismissive of innate capabilities, I’m not suggesting you necessarily think otherwise.

Kimera1 wrote:
Greebo wrote:Do you ever wonder if in counteracting the effects of NPD you ever go too far the other way? That you end up foisting new values on yourself purely because they are antithetical to your current view?

Why did you ask?
curiosity, your remark spoke to me of a lack of a fixed value system.
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Re: Core values

Postby Kimera1 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:34 pm

Greebo wrote:curiosity, your remark spoke to me of a lack of a fixed value system.


ok, where is that ######6 crossbow?

:evil:
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Re: Core values

Postby Greebo » Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:18 am

My apologies Kim :(

Putting my foot in my mouth seems to be becoming my hobby
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Re: Core values

Postby Kimera1 » Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:51 am

Thank you for that. It means a lot.

At times when I was in therapy and also in discussions here it feels a bit like we're performing an autopsy on a living person. I say 'we' because I do it, too. As we're dissecting I think we sometimes forget this one still has a pulse.

Sorry we've taken quite a turn from core values. I'm good to get back on topic.
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