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Core values

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Re: Core values

Postby Kimera1 » Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:00 pm

realityhere wrote:Totally weird that she didn't see her part.

It’s likely to be quite traumatizing if/when your mom does see her part, maybe sending her into depression. I think in a way lack of awareness is a blessing to the individual; it’s a painful process, and not everyone is equipped to deal with it. Even when it starts to break apart, awareness may trickle in slowly over times as opposed to a sudden stream of insight. Bite-size doses of awareness are a bit easier to manage.

Greebo wrote:On the other hand isn’t getting children to reach a certain threshold of knowledge what secondary education is all about? Frankly undergraduate higher education is much the same, a means of giving you the required foundation to start your training in a specific area. From my perspective people only really get into the kind of learning you are talking about at the postgraduate level.

That being said my own experience only really encompasses the sciences so it may be otherwise in different fields.

Yes I think that’s right from a knowledge standpoint. But what about the application of knowledge? What about the critical thinking skills? If this must wait for postgraduate education, most people will never get that far.

Perhaps this is my own personal bias because I stink at memorizing facts and spitting them back. I thrive on the application of knowledge to solve a problem. As an example, I was a Marketing major in undergrad and the university I went to was keen on using Harvard Business Review case studies as a teaching tool. This may not be something your familiar with given your science background (if you are, ignore my explanation). HBR case studies are typically about 15-20 pages long and they lay out a real-world example of a business challenge, or failure. Usually there are errors in judgement made by the management team in the case study that lead to loss of market share & revenue, missing a business opportunity, or sub-optimizing a new product launch. Lots of data is provided in the appendix, not all of which is relevant. As the student, your job is to analyze the case and make a recommendation to the ‘management team’ as to what they need to do next. As part of that, you need to sort out the root cause of their troubles which is a challenge because they layer in a lot of extraneous information – simulating the complexity of decision-making in the real world. The information provided was never perfect nor complete, which also mirrors the real world. I loved these case studies, they were absolutely my favorite part of my undergrad education.

I would like to see those sorts of tools (context appropriate, of course) being used earlier in the education process. Am I being unreasonable?

Greebo wrote:What do you think may have been different for you, or Michael, if you’d been treated in a manner more consistent with your needs/temperament?
That question is a little too expansive for me to give you a sensible answer. Broadly I think I’d be less successful but also happier with much, much less neurosis. That’d be a fair trade in my view.

Less successful….by whose standards?

The definition for success for me was engrained by Dad, and it was about status, reflected in both title and scope of responsibility. We’ve had some funny exchanges about my title. “Are you a VP yet?” “They don’t use that title, Dad. I’m Head of….” “Head of? What the hell kind of title is that? Why aren’t you VP?” Good grief. :roll:
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Re: Core values

Postby Cassandre » Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:53 am

realityhere wrote:There were a few occasions she would say a cutting remark to put a child in his/her place, without realizing the impact of her words. She would get extremely jealous when her husband, who easily made new friends and was an attractive man, got a lot of attention from other women and his own daughters.


It sounds like he had everybody wrapped around his finger... might have been himself a narcissist?

Your mother just seems like an easy target, being the spoil sport.
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Re: Core values

Postby realityhere » Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:31 am

@Cassandre,

Be careful with your assumptions. I'm not "targeting" one parent or the other. They both had their own flaws and different qualities.

My father was hardly the type. Sure, he enjoyed some attention, but he never angled for it constantly, like a narcissist would. He was the one who would play with his kids and he listened to our problems, as Mom didn't want to be bothered with them.

He was an easy-going and forgiving man, considering what he had to deal with from his wife. If anything, he knew what my mom was like better than anybody else and probably understood how her past influenced her behavior. My guess is and it's only a guess, my mom had a rather unreliable father figure in her childhood and that may have explained her jealousy and eagle eye on her husband. She likely had issues with abandonment and broken promises while growing up.

My mom remains an elusive figure, now that's she's gone.
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Re: Core values

Postby Greebo » Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:04 am

Kimera1 wrote:Yes I think that’s right from a knowledge standpoint. But what about the application of knowledge? What about the critical thinking skills? If this must wait for postgraduate education, most people will never get that far.

Perhaps this is my own personal bias because I stink at memorizing facts and spitting them back. I thrive on the application of knowledge to solve a problem. As an example, I was a Marketing major in undergrad and the university I went to was keen on using Harvard Business Review case studies as a teaching tool. This may not be something your familiar with given your science background (if you are, ignore my explanation). HBR case studies are typically about 15-20 pages long and they lay out a real-world example of a business challenge, or failure. Usually there are errors in judgement made by the management team in the case study that lead to loss of market share & revenue, missing a business opportunity, or sub-optimizing a new product launch. Lots of data is provided in the appendix, not all of which is relevant. As the student, your job is to analyze the case and make a recommendation to the ‘management team’ as to what they need to do next. As part of that, you need to sort out the root cause of their troubles which is a challenge because they layer in a lot of extraneous information – simulating the complexity of decision-making in the real world. The information provided was never perfect nor complete, which also mirrors the real world. I loved these case studies, they were absolutely my favorite part of my undergrad education.

I would like to see those sorts of tools (context appropriate, of course) being used earlier in the education process. Am I being unreasonable?
I was not familiar with the HBR or how they teach marketing but I have some experience of how law is taught, and they seem fairly similar.

’Critical Thinking’ is one of those phrases which is often inappropriately utilised. It is supposed to mean the formation of judgement via objective analysis of information but in reality is often just a buzz phrase used to defend the polar opposite.

Most people tend to overestimate the objectivity and validity of their own perception, much as they tend to overestimate the amount of intelligence or empathy they possess.

Mainly what the lower part of the education system does is make people learn, understand then apply theoretical models. What you describe seems to be more the like the latter part of this process. However freeform it may appear, the work is still graded within a theoretical framework. This remains true until we reach the point at which we are creating models/knowledge for ourselves. A practical issue is that it is very easy for the teaching of a model to become the teaching of a dogma and in the worst case scenario for a student to be graded by their conformity to the subjective views of the examiner.

While it is possible to teach the philosophical basis of critical thinking (in the classical sense) it is primarily something which has to be cultivated by the individual through experience and interaction. Or to put it another way, I think that debate, argument and other active freeform activities, in an appropriate environment, is the only really effective way to stimulates critical thinking skills. The downside of those methods is that they are highly inefficient both in terms of time and resources, extremely dependent on the abilities of the teacher to produce good results, and very difficult to objectively examine.

Tbh if I was going try to reform education, I would probably look more at the teachers than the syllabus.

Less successful….by whose standards?

The definition for success for me was engrained by Dad, and it was about status, reflected in both title and scope of responsibility. We’ve had some funny exchanges about my title. “Are you a VP yet?” “They don’t use that title, Dad. I’m Head of….” “Head of? What the hell kind of title is that? Why aren’t you VP?” Good grief. :roll:
By mine, in accordance with my value system. For example, I think I previously stated that I viewed the value of what we do to be proportional to the positive change we affect. I believe I have been relatively successful in achieving that. Part of the reason I have stayed in the same job, in spite of the fact it is not ideal for maintaining my health and makes it harder to deal with some of my psychological idiosyncrasies, is that I am able to have greater effect here than I would anywhere else. It becomes a balancing act between meaning and happiness.

To a degree also in terms of societal prestige, though as stated elsewhere that is often disingenuous.
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Re: Core values

Postby Kimera1 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:17 pm

Greebo wrote:’Critical Thinking’ is one of those phrases which is often inappropriately utilised. It is supposed to mean the formation of judgement via objective analysis of information but in reality is often just a buzz phrase used to defend the polar opposite.

Can you clarify if this was more of a general statement or if you meant that I was misapplying the term?

Greebo wrote:Mainly what the lower part of the education system does is make people learn, understand then apply theoretical models. What you describe seems to be more the like the latter part of this process. However freeform it may appear, the work is still graded within a theoretical framework. This remains true until we reach the point at which we are creating models/knowledge for ourselves. A practical issue is that it is very easy for the teaching of a model to become the teaching of a dogma and in the worst case scenario for a student to be graded by their conformity to the subjective views of the examiner.

Here's where we should bring it back to how this discussion got started. We were discussing gifted children. Putting aside for a moment the use of an arbitrary IQ cutoff to categorize kids, I agree this doesn’t make sense and I don’t care for the gifted label either. Think about the learning continuum from memorization, to knowledge acquisition, to application of theoretical models, to creation of theoretical models….do you agree that there is a range in how students progress through that continuum, with some making more progress and at a faster pace than others? Do you believe schools cater to the variation in capability? Should they?

I think, as I reflect on this a bit more, that I'm seeing a bigger variation in capability and you're seeing a bigger variation in effort as the main drivers. Differences in capability have been an ingrained part of my worldview (with myself at the higher, but not highest end). Now you've got me wondering how much the narcissism is shaping that. :|

Greebo wrote:Tbh if I was going try to reform education, I would probably look more at the teachers than the syllabus.

What changes would you see made here? Here in the states we don’t pay teachers very well and American parents can be awful to deal with. You’d have to have a real passion for teaching to get into it.
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Re: Core values

Postby Cassandre » Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:29 pm

realityhere wrote:Be careful with your assumptions.


Half the time when people call assumptions out, they're simply missing the point.

Here you declare that both parent have qualities and flaws but you proceed with listing your father's qualities and your mother's issues...

Overall your family's portrayal does little to explain its dysfunction. It does not explain the tensions between its members. It also neither explains your own narcissism nor the kind of dynamics you replay with other narcissists.
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Re: Core values

Postby Greebo » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:31 am

Kimera1 wrote:
Greebo wrote:’Critical Thinking’ is one of those phrases which is often inappropriately utilised. It is supposed to mean the formation of judgement via objective analysis of information but in reality is often just a buzz phrase used to defend the polar opposite.

Can you clarify if this was more of a general statement or if you meant that I was misapplying the term?
I meant generally. However does occur to me that one of the core aspects of critical thought is overcoming innate egocentrism and cultural bias, and that self referencing and egocentric behaviour is common in pwPD. I don’t know how that works out in the real world.

Think about the learning continuum from memorization, to knowledge acquisition, to application of theoretical models, to creation of theoretical models….do you agree that there is a range in how students progress through that continuum, with some making more progress and at a faster pace than others? Do you believe schools cater to the variation in capability? Should they?
Yes I think some kids will progress faster than others but I also think there are many factors involved in that beyond intelligence or intellectual capability. Off the top of my head: whether the child is being exposed to intellectual concepts at home, if they suffer from anxiety and perform badly under pressure, their social happiness at school, the quality of their previous teaching, how interested they are in the subject, how compatible their temperament/style of learning is with the way a subject is taught etc...

The bottom line is that at some stage in education system everyone reaches a point where they are no longer having learning handed to them on a plate and will be obliged to go out, locate the information and teach themselves.

Both schools I went to during my secondary education did take a pupil’s performance into account and broke each subject down into several tiers. It’s a strategy that I was as ambivalent about then as I am now; on the one hand I wanted the pace and greater academic freedom the top tier provided (even if it meant extra lessons) and on the other I felt sorry for those placed in the lower tiers as they seemed to be getting short changed.

I think, as I reflect on this a bit more, that I'm seeing a bigger variation in capability and you're seeing a bigger variation in effort as the main drivers. Differences in capability have been an ingrained part of my worldview (with myself at the higher, but not highest end). Now you've got me wondering how much the narcissism is shaping that. :|
That’s probably not an unreasonable summation. My only through regarding narcissism is that making innate capability the primary factor is easier and more stable if your aim is to support/buffer your self-esteem.

What changes would you see made here? Here in the states we don’t pay teachers very well and American parents can be awful to deal with. You’d have to have a real passion for teaching to get into it.
We used to have a saying back when I was a student: Those that can’t, teach. Teaching was the ultimate fallback option for most of us. I’d like to see teaching made a proper respected vocation again, complete with the standards, incentives and prestige such an important task warrants.
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Re: Core values

Postby Kimera1 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:53 am

Greebo wrote:I’m inclined to agree.


Greebo wrote:I don’t have the experience to disagree with you here


Greebo wrote:That’s probably not an unreasonable assumption


I refuse to die until Quoth says the words, "I agree" to me.

I am going to live forever.

8)
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Re: Core values

Postby Greebo » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:24 am

:lol: that’s the second time you’ve remarked on my phrasing. You think I’m being evasive?
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Re: Core values

Postby Kimera1 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:51 pm

Greebo wrote: that’s the second time you’ve remarked on my phrasing. You think I’m being evasive?

Nah just having a bit of fun.

Greebo wrote:However does occur to me that one of the core aspects of critical thought is overcoming innate egocentrism and cultural bias, and that self referencing and egocentric behaviour is common in pwPD. I don’t know how that works out in the real world.

The challenge is magnified in pwPDs, but people in general are inherently and unconsciously biased. Which is why it's good to surround yourself with smart people who see the world differently than you do. So many leaders do exactly the opposite because they fear being challenged. Sign of an insecure leader. Does that work in your field, too?

Greebo wrote:My only through regarding narcissism is that making innate capability the primary factor is easier and more stable if your aim is to support/buffer your self-esteem.

But innate capability is a thing, and effort will only get you so far. Not everyone is capable of creating theoretical frameworks, no matter how much effort they apply. Then again there are plenty of people who are capable but fundamentally lack the effort. That can be me at times.

I was reflecting on this thread and realizing that I tend to omit artistic ability from my capability worldview because I have no skill in that arena. I'm trying to broaden my view to also include things I don't do well. Humbling.
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