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Do empaths have empathy when it counts?

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Re: Do empaths have empathy when it counts?

Postby ShowJumpingRabbit » Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:47 pm

It might be because it echoes some sadness that you carry yourself. If you resolve your own sadness, you might be able to experience theirs without being swept away.

I don't know if that can make you feel better. But the type of empathy you carry is something I am personally very sensitive too. I respond a lot better to empathy when I can read true concern on a person's face. Makes me feel warmer.
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Re: Do empaths have empathy when it counts?

Postby Akuma » Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:34 am

Philonoe wrote:This just happened to me.
Someone talks me with despair
and reasons for it
i feel despair
what can i do?
offering despair no good.
fake no good
what can i offer.


Listen.
dx: dissociative disorder + npd
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Re: Do empaths have empathy when it counts?

Postby Philonoe » Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:47 am

Thank you, both of you.


Akuma : you are right, one can just listen instead of looking for solutions.

ShowJumpingRabbit : yes, it echoes own sadness.

When i listen it echoes own sadness, immediately or later, when i'm alone.





I think i need time to digest bad news too.
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Re: Do empaths have empathy when it counts?

Postby Philonoe » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:36 pm

Just some thoughts :

It's very difficult (at least for me) to be emotionally available with some one with despair.
Because - like you said - it resonates with own vulnerability.

In case life is involved, there is an other difficulty - there is a bond, and one can be afraid of losing the person. It's not empathy, it's attachment.

In some case they are contradictory
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Re: Do empaths have empathy when it counts?

Postby Aals » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:23 am

Empaths aren't truly empathetic. They're codependent. Codependents are narcissistic. It's possible to be more narcissistic than a Covert and be codependent.


I have to agree with this. They might not have NPD, but they have this narcissistic, delusional belief that they can make people change/get better/heal with their love. They are also very controlling and manipulative, just like narcissists. They need to be needed so they can feel strong and powerful. In some twisted, sadomasochistic way narcissists/addicts/other deeply troubled people are their supply. I am talking from my own experience. I met a woman who might have NPD or some other cluster-B PD. She was impossible to be with, but she showed me something of me nobody else ever did: I had "white knight syndrome" which is like "kind" version of narcissism. In reality, it is far from kindness. It is extremely disrespectful approach where you see yourself superior and the other person weak. Like a hero who saves the maiden from her dragon. Realizing this was NOT one of the proudest moments of my life, but I am very grateful because of that. Now I can get rid of that role. All of us have our "blind spots", aspects of our personality we refuse to see. Because we do not like what we will see. We seek pleasure, and we want to avoid pain. Because of that it is much more comfortable to not look to ourselves.
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Re: Do empaths have empathy when it counts?

Postby ShowJumpingRabbit » Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:59 pm

Philonoe wrote:It's very difficult (at least for me) to be emotionally available with some one with despair.
Because - like you said - it resonates with own vulnerability.

In case life is involved, there is an other difficulty - there is a bond, and one can be afraid of losing the person. It's not empathy, it's attachment.


There's one type of person, I will withhold emotional empathy from. Not because I believe they aren't deserving of empathy - they are- but because I know that unadulterated emotional empathy isn't the right tool with them. Those are people who always have it worst. I also try my best not to be afraid to lose them, as if they always have it worst, it's not really me they're into, but an ability to resonate with their poor me stance. (I used to be scared to be sucked in, as if sadness would be contagious, mostly a byproduct of my mother sharing inappropriate thoughts with me, too complicated for a child to carry)

I am not troubled with other expressions of despair.
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Re: Do empaths have empathy when it counts?

Postby ShowJumpingRabbit » Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:10 pm

Aals wrote:They might not have NPD, but they have this narcissistic, delusional belief that they can make people change/get better/heal with their love. They are also very controlling and manipulative, just like narcissists.


I just want to point out the tautological aspect of this argument. They are not just like narcissists, those people are narcissists. Some narcissists are codependent. Their persona may be that which of an empath, but they will put their needs ahead of others. In this case, helping is a mean to maintain a self image.

MeAgain's quote may possess some appearance of logic, but it's just word salad.

This being said, good job on acknowledging your own white knight proclivity.
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Re: Do empaths have empathy when it counts?

Postby Absinthe » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:04 am

In my experience the codependent saviors are more disordered than the narcissists, but they’re too awash in their own distorted self-righteousness to see it.
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Re: Do empaths have empathy when it counts?

Postby Fool » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:04 pm

Aals wrote:
Empaths aren't truly empathetic. They're codependent. Codependents are narcissistic. It's possible to be more narcissistic than a Covert and be codependent.


I have to agree with this. They might not have NPD, but they have this narcissistic, delusional belief that they can make people change/get better/heal with their love. They are also very controlling and manipulative, just like narcissists. They need to be needed so they can feel strong and powerful. In some twisted, sadomasochistic way narcissists/addicts/other deeply troubled people are their supply. I am talking from my own experience. I met a woman who might have NPD or some other cluster-B PD. She was impossible to be with, but she showed me something of me nobody else ever did: I had "white knight syndrome" which is like "kind" version of narcissism. In reality, it is far from kindness. It is extremely disrespectful approach where you see yourself superior and the other person weak. Like a hero who saves the maiden from her dragon. Realizing this was NOT one of the proudest moments of my life, but I am very grateful because of that. Now I can get rid of that role. All of us have our "blind spots", aspects of our personality we refuse to see. Because we do not like what we will see. We seek pleasure, and we want to avoid pain. Because of that it is much more comfortable to not look to ourselves.


assuming everyone has an innate desire to feel superior to others and thus concluding all empaths are narcissists is pretty funny, if you actually think about it?

empathy has little to do with how arrogant/insecure a person is. in fact i would assume arrogance makes empathy more difficult. so why do you think anyone with empathy is also inherently arrogant? when i read this it sounds exactly like the kind of rationale a narcissist would use to try and justify their own hubris. "you only do kind things to feel superior to everyone else...just like me", or no?


i have empathy, it's just got zero impact on my behavior. i help people because it benefits me. mutual benefit > self gratification because the potential for further reward is vastly higher, but that has nothing to do with empathy. it's nothing but a tool for understanding things beyond myself.

i'm curious, do you believe empaths also need to feel superior to things like animals and bugs etc, or is the sense of inferiority you paint them with strictly limited to the human condition?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBjQ9tuuTJQ
"Kindly let me help before you drown" said the monkey, lifting the fish into the tree.
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Re: Do empaths have empathy when it counts?

Postby Aals » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:30 am

assuming everyone has an innate desire to feel superior to others and thus concluding all empaths are narcissists is pretty funny, if you actually think about it?


Yes. You are right. If you read my post again, I did not say that all of them have NPD. All I was saying is that they have this narcissistic delusion that they can change people with their love. I have changed my mind with one thing. Not all the empaths are codependent. Some are. There was actually very interesting point in the book "Rethinking Narcissism". According to authors the majority of people think they are "little better" than average person. It was unexpected(for me, at least) that this is a good thing because by thinking like that you elevate the others up and make them feel special and better about themselves too. So in moderation, it is a good thing. It will be a problem if it makes you feel extremely entitled. I base my opinion about codependents on my on my experiences with Adulth Children of Alcoholics 12-step groups. Many of the people in these groups talked about this delusion (they did not call it delusion, more like compulsive habit) in the sessions, and I have seen that in myself too.

Not all the people with strong narcissists tendencies are arrogant. Some are very shy and introverted. Not all the empaths have strong narcissists tendencies. Some of them belong to other side of spectrum, who are actually lacking healthy narcissism. Some of them belong to healthy side. (0=no narcissistic tendencies at all - 10 = full blown sociopathy). According to this book, unhealthy narcissism is an ADDICTION. Codependency is an ADDICTION. And I have first hand experience of the dark side of codependency. There was one woman in the group. She had a husband and kids. She had a crush on me, and altough I found her sexy I did not want to do anything about it because she was married. She acted like I am her possession. She was very jealous. She was blaming me that I do things (like talk to other women of the group) just to hurt her. I made it very clear that there will be nothing between us because she is married and I do not want to get involved in anything like this. I did not send mixed signals. Her excuse for her behavior: "I can not help myself because I am codependent". On other words, complete lack of accountability.

i have empathy, it's just got zero impact on my behavior. i help people because it benefits me. mutual benefit > self gratification because the potential for further reward is vastly higher, but that has nothing to do with empathy. it's nothing but a tool for understanding things beyond myself.


Again, I think having self gratification for doing good is not a bad thing. It CAN be if it makes you feel very entitled, like a saint. This is what codependency can become in its most extreme form. One thing about empathy. It does not mean compassion. It just mean that you can understand what other person is feeling. For instance, sociopaths have a lot of empathy. This makes them very dangerous because they know very well what you are feeling, they just don´t care at all. They use that information for their own good. The way how I see it is that compassion gives you the motivation to make the other person feel better and take responsibility if you hurt somebody (like we all do sometimes because we do not always know what we are doing).

i'm curious, do you believe empaths also need to feel superior to things like animals and bugs etc, or is the sense of inferiority you paint them with strictly limited to the human condition?


I do not really have opinion about this. The woman I was talking about (not the one in the group) was always very displeased when I caressed the street dogs (she did not like animals). On the other hand, I have heard some people with NPD saying that they treat their pets like royalties and that they love animals. So, I do not really know. Maybe. Maybe not.

At this point, I think narcissism occurs in spectrum (just like empathy). Too much of it and also lack of it is very unhealthy for the person and people around him/her. For instance, somebody with too little narcissism can really hurt other people who want to make him/her feel happy by rejecting their loving gestures (gifts, for example).

By the way, I strongly recommend the book "Rethinking Narcissism" for everybody who are interested about self-reflection. For me it gave a completely new perspective to narcissism, empathy and addiction. It offers a lot of hope for people with NPD who have become aware of their struggles.
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