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Sons of Narcissistic Mothers (Adult or otherwise)

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Re: Sons of Narcissistic Mothers (Adult or otherwise)

Postby addx » Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:57 pm

computerology wrote:
This is exceedingly common between a N parent and the golden child. You and he are the same person in his mind. He probably puts words in your mouth for you when talking to other family, siblings, etc. because he is you and you are he to him. I know my NM does that with my GC sister. I heard for 15 minutes how happy she was about my new job. Then when I talked to her she didnt know I had gotten a new job. Examples of this are endless.


I did this to my wife, exactly so.

When I started dating my wife I took interest in everything she does and attempted to join in. She felt flattered by my interest in her and her activities(especially being 7 years younger and still in college with not much money) and I felt good for giving it. I didn't plan it, it's just what I do, I felt happy to do it and it felt like something a person does for a person they love, it felt right, nothing sinister about it at least not consciously. My interest means that I try to make whatever she does even better for her and then enjoy her increased happiness about it of which I am the source. I also tend to be jelaous of anyone else sourcing her happiness. Eventually as I manage to improve everything she does and undermine all others that source her happiness, I start to become more necessary than an aid. At this point she starts to ask me for advice instead of me just offering it and she can't really imagine doing stuff without me. After a while she gets used to me thinking for her and delivering pleasure and she takes my help for granted at which point I start feeling used and pointing out ways in which she could have handled stuff herself(devalue commences I guess). I'm not sure if this change in perspective is really brought by a change in her, me getting bored or something else. But it happenes eventually nevertheless.

I believe this is the covert way of controlling people, covertly making them dependant. This is why coverts can't "own" a lot of people, it is quite exhausting to do this for control, you wouldn't be able to pull it off with more people simultaneously, usually it's just one person being made dependant.

Overts are quite capable of performing the same and they often will when they want to get close to someone. It's also often not premeditated but simply the result of the weaker overt narc being in awe with a stronger one and trying to become him - merge with him, he becomes covert towards him. The covert behavior might very well, over time destroy the stronger overt as he'll get more and more used to the overt playing covert delivering for him and at some point the overt playing covert will decide the overt is pathetic and can't do anything without him anymore and switch roles to full overt.


There is nothing premeditated about this though. I only realized I do this in retrospect. If I had known I would have not done this and the minute I have realized this I started pulling back and pushing her to have solo interests for which I am not necessary.

I do not want to emotionaly destroy my wife. But it seems the NPD subconscious perspective of things causes all the right urges at all the right moments to achieve emotional addiction in my wife. This is not by accident, addiction is the only way an NPDer, uncapable of feeling love and trust, can substitute these missing emotions. His thought patterns are deeply ingrained with this maladaptive reasoning. Sadly, emotional addiction pretty much spells emotional destruction sooner or later. Whenever I get self-absorbed I can't "feed" her and she shrivels up and I feel bad about it but I just can't unself-absorb myself, I'm just disconnected and feel burdened by her needyness which I infact created to feel wanted.
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Re: Sons of Narcissistic Mothers (Adult or otherwise)

Postby BigB » Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:53 pm

Incredible enmeshment.
My father recently contacted me about something dumb. Now he says he's going on to an island for a short vacation....and which island?? The one where I was just 2 friggin' months ago!!!

Un freaking canning how much these narcissistic, dependent types of no lives of their own and need to live through you. It's all BS though because it's conditional - if you do/live how THEY want, they like and admire you and attach themselves to you. But if you screw up and don't live up to their expectations, then you are garbage to them - disposable.

Covert narcissists are dangerous, even if you're a GC like me.

I think what I'm learning more now than ever before that any child who is a product of these selfish, no-identity bastards needs to find what they want somewhere else. You can't trust 'em, that's for sure.

BB
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Re: Sons of Narcissistic Mothers (Adult or otherwise)

Postby computerology » Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:46 pm

Its interesting hearing the story from a golden child perspective. Most of those who "awaken" are scapegoats. I cant relate much to your story, my NM and EF would automatically (and everchangingly evolve to) take the opposite side of anything i ever did.

When i learned how to crack the copy protection on computer games my dad became an anti piracy zealot and destroyed any software he didnt own. When i learned msdos he switched from pc to mac. Any place i travelled, my NM dismissed it as an uninteresting place and lied to me, saying my GC sister travelled there years ago. I bought a front load washer, my NM lied to me and said she bought a top loader that was just as efficient (they dont make HE top loaders and she didnt buy a new washer).

If i tried to do anything similar to them NM would actively sabotage me. I wanted to buy a similar peice of property to what they had, every realtor i contacted would not call me back (they "heard" i was not a serious buyer), the job that was offered to me on a silver platter in that town "heard" the same thing and didnt call me back. An uncle who would have cosigned heard i was near skid row and crawled into a bottle. She even had a serious "talk" with me trying to talk me out of buying on leased land, citing it was too expensive (beach front property for $70K? ).

But while i cant relate to your side of the mirror it is quite interesting. Helps me to understand what goes down with my GC sister, although she is still quite complicit in the scheme. Id like to have a relationship with her, but i think shes heard so much bull and lies about me that her view on who i am is so warped i doubt i will ever be able to get her to know me as who i am rather than the scum my NM has portrayed me to be.
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Re: Sons of Narcissistic Mothers (Adult or otherwise)

Postby Yorkshirelass » Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:18 pm

Hi sons of narcissistic mothers.
Do you feel your mothers had any self awareness at all, or were they oblivious to their PD?
My own belief is that Narcissists have no self awareness whatsoever.
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Re: Sons of Narcissistic Mothers (Adult or otherwise)

Postby computerology » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:54 pm

I think she always had a sense that something was off, mine went and got treated for depression after the kids had all left (i guess the family dynamic left her with nobody to control or manipulate), she had a "nervous breakdown" and was wandering around the house like a ghost wringing her hands for about 18 months; but i am figuring that was just a ploy for supply now. She just went off the meds cold turkey a year ago and i cant imagine that being healthy as most ad meds require a long taper, so that all may have been a ruse too. She saw a psychotherapist periodically for a while, but meds or no meds, therapist or no therapist nothing has ever really changed. Not even a whimper of trying any methods to change or anything over years and years.

I cant imagine her ever thinking there was something wrong with how she views the world. She was always so judgemental of everyone and has always incessantly talked behind peoples backs, even directly calling her own friends down at the table at her own dinner parties. My thinking is that she desired the psychotherapy to try to get others to see her the way she saw herself rather than the other way around. With the kids gone and running her own business she is really stuck in the real world with real people who tend to take her with a shaker of salt.
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Re: Sons of Narcissistic Mothers (Adult or otherwise)

Postby Shazam » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:11 pm

I think there are moments when Ns know something is off about them. Then the defense mechanisms swoop in, and the awareness is buried deep.

Like one time, back when I would waste my time confronting my Nmom about her bad behavior, she got kind of pathetic and mentioned that she suffered from some self-esteem issues. Later, when I brought up that comment, she denied ever saying anything about self-esteem issues. So there had been a brief moment of honesty about herself, but since then it has been buried and never acknowledged again.

Similarly, I think there are brief moments when Ns are appalled by their own actions. Like the time I caught my Nmom doing something I had repeatedly asked her not to do -- she was trying to get a website to publish something I wrote, and trying to cover it up by telling the webmaster to not mention her involvement. The webmaster forwarded me the email my mom had sent him, and then I forwarded it back to my Nmom, saying "WTF?"

Here's how she responded to being caught red-handed. The first message below is her immediate response, which is as close to apologizing as she ever gets (though not really an apology) and a promise to change behavior. The second message came literally 10 minutes later, when the defense mechanisms had kicked in, allowing her to justify her actions and continue them in the future:

at 5:33 PM:
I'll honor your wishes, and so sorry that this offends you.

at 5:43 PM
I have a right to give my side, which is that I definitely thought it was appropriate to have it [on the website]. My intent was to help you as that is what a parent wants to do and should in some instances.
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Re: Sons of Narcissistic Mothers (Adult or otherwise)

Postby computerology » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:53 pm

Shazam,

Yes it is interesting how they whip themselves up to doing something wrong, over a matter of hours, days, or even months.

For example, i took my vacation at the beginning of august, and went up to see them as planned. Despite planning these dates back in late april and confirming them in may, (we were to spend the first night we arrived in town at her house, to get landed and head out camping the next morning) i was told upon arrival that she had decided to drive my nephew back to the city that very day we arrived, (friday) and that she would not be back until sunday - and that we could not stay at the house anyway, which was very inconvenient for us. We made do and after camping for the week spent a night there until heading to my friends for a planned long weekend visit at his place. During that night i was talking about buying a house and had looked at one three doors down, explaining how i intended to pay cash and would have enough money by the following summer.

After we left town things were quiet until early october (my birthday). Then i got an email out of nowhere chastizing me for financial irresponsibility and telling me that debt was a part of life and that paying cash for a house was a bad idea, and berating me for having years of taxes i didnt file (i ran a struggling home based business and kept poor records; the government probably owed me money). I gave her a lengthy answer explaining that i had spoken to a tax lawyer and that paying cash was the only way to go because my credit was trashed from my failed business after the recession.

December i was prepapring a family get together on boxing day and spoke to her about all the preparations we were making and how we expected it to be a very good time. A week later i got a call from the tax authorities, on a pbone number they didnt have for me and without them sending any correspondence at all. Later when i pulled my own credit report for an unrelated reason i noted that they checked my credit file a few days after that phone call, they called me a few days later.

This process in her head built up over 5 months, with little input from me. I think the initial trigger was that i would not alter my plans to stay with my friend the weekend that i arrived and spend the long weekend with them instead (i couldnt, my friend had his sister in law and her five kids over). That and seeing as i was the scapegoat, moving near her buying a place with cash didnt mesh up with what she had told people about me.

It took me a long time to realize how these events were connected. They say that narcs are basically psychopaths who avoid breaking the law, and this story and others ive experienced certainly bears that out.

In this scenario she: (1) severely inconvenienced my family upon our arrival at the last minute despite that plans were made well in advance, (2) tried to make me bail on my friend whom i had made plans with well in advance, (3) given me the worst possible financial advice; telling me a mortgage was better than paying with cash, (4) tried to make me feel like less of a man and like a cheater for not filing taxes without having a clue about the actual situation, (5) soured my birthday with her rambling note, (6) tried to get me in trouble with the tax authorities just in time for christmas.

On the surface, even from a birds eye view, what mother (who used to be a bank manager, no doubt) advocates taking on 25 years of fixed expenses over buying a hard asset with cash and prudent saving? What kind of a mother actively tries to get her kids in trouble with the tax authorities? The same kind of mother, i guess, who when snooping through my room decades earlier and found some pot, tried to turn it and me into the police to get mea criminal record. (luckily the police just took it and sent them off, probably suspicious that it was some sort of a ruse, because thats just weird).
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Re: Sons of Narcissistic Mothers (Adult or otherwise)

Postby BigB » Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:44 pm

Computerology,

It is interesting to hear your perspective as the scapegoat. I have read that sometimes the GC looks to the SC as being "spared" from enmeshment, although in your story you have hardly been spared. Either way, it's a terrible effect on someone's self -esteem, with you it's more overt, out there as with me, its more covert...my father becomes enmeshed with me AND THEN starts to undermine/criticize anything I do to get under his grip, his control - looking for his approval.

Your mother definitely sounds like a leech for you esteem. I guess its a matter of finding internal approval/validation without the need to find it from them.
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Re: Sons of Narcissistic Mothers (Adult or otherwise)

Postby computerology » Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:47 pm

Bigb,

Man you wouldnt beleive. I dont know if its age, or perhaps the number of siblings in my family, but...

If you were the golden child in my family, (subbing for my gc sister), heres what you could expect.

Parents travelling to town to visit you. There are three other siblings in the same metro area; but they wouldnt even notify nor bother to contact any of them while in town. Family gatherings became them coming to visit your family, christmas, thanksgiving etc. Every soccer or hockey game of significance they would travel into town to watch your son play as though they were your kids parents, every birthday of your kid they would attend, despite barely picking up the phone to call their own kids most of the time.

"secret" family gatherings where only golden children/grandchildren are allowed to know about and attend. Scapegoat or ignored siblings are told they cant visit or stop by even if they are in town just to say hi, even phoning during these times elicits a strange response.

Scapegoat or ignored siblings talk about an accomplishment, in front of you or not, these accomplishments are compared to your own, even if they are not on the same wavelength (they may have a nice home theatre, but you have nicer appliances). Your siblings belittled with wry grins behind their back to you incessantly (oh, he wants to buy a house, how cute, too bad he will never be able to afford it).

When we were growing up there were two sets of rules. The golden child, whatever they did, was a glowing shining example of growing up well (even when they came home drunk or had a party when the parents were away), and everyone else, who had to follow a draconian ever evolving set of rules; including long lists of chores to do, constant criticism (well its nice you finally cleaned the floors, but it would be nicer if you picked up all the twigs in the forest by the creek). This coupled with every request for help or a favor being turned down while it seemed they dreamed up new and interesting ways to lavish gifts, money, attention onto the golden child, even when it was obvious that the golden child wasnt interested.

Several of my siblings got kicked out (myself included) with no notice and not even guidance on how to get a job or find a place. My gc sister left and they paid her phone bill, brought her groceries every two weeks and spent a year accumulating furniture, dishes, and appliances for her. My poor brother got to watch as the pile grew in his room to occupy half the space. None of it was for him.

Its interesting hearing your side, my sister gets that something is wrong, i can tell she doesnt want to know what he deal is because she is afraid to feel guilty. In reality, its not her fault, its the NMs - but as the years go on and every holiday is centered around her and her family and everyone else is a mere afterthought, and "the family" gets smaller and smaller she owns more and more of the blame.

I tried to talk to her about why siblings keep going no contact, and said i didnt want to ask her to take sides but that i would only explain it to her if she wanted to hear. She said she would rather not know, doubled down and played into the shrinking family game even more. 3/7 kids no longer speak to the parents. Two more are low contact. Its surprising she isnt out looking for answers like you have.

What was your trigger that sent you to where you are today, here on this board?
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Re: Sons of Narcissistic Mothers (Adult or otherwise)

Postby Yorkshirelass » Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:10 pm

computerology
However, i fear, my demons are grappling me very strongly this weekend. My birth mother died a few months ago and i am fighting my demons now for he very direction of my soul. Good, i want to persue. Evil, i fear may overtake me.

I have been fearful of demons in the past, particularly a desire to strangle Mother. To wring her scrawny spiteful neck and shut her mouth.
And I know, if I had done it, all I would have felt was relief.
That feeling has gone now (well nearly I sometimes still fantasise about it)

Don't let it over take you the best revenge is to live well. Keep away from mother. Maybe no contact is a good idea.

Scapegoat or ignored siblings talk about an accomplishment, in front of you or not, these accomplishments are compared to your own, even if they are not on the same wavelength (they may have a nice home theatre, but you have nicer appliances). Your siblings belittled with wry grins behind their back to you incessantly (oh, he wants to buy a house, how cute, too bad he will never be able to afford it).

I hate that, all that behind the back smirking, my narcissistic sister is terrible for this. Any efforts I make are met with furtive glances to others and patronizing tone, an 'awww, how sweet ,she's trying.'
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