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Sons of Narcissistic Mothers (Adult or otherwise)

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Re: Sons of Narcissistic Mothers (Adult or otherwise)

Postby computerology » Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:08 pm

Above post continued...

6. "teach you a lesson". Sons, boys being boys, growing into men, inevitably will have phases where they try to develop headstrong resilience. Daring to do this raises the ire of the NM, and results in asymmetrical warfare against the child. The son who is determined to go to shop class instead of physics will then be enlisted to fix everything around the house. ("since your so interested in woodworking i guess you can build the new woodshed, i guess i dont need a contractor"). The boy who likes hats will see his hat "accidentally" chewed up by the washing machine by a mother. If you want to go to a friends house that she doesnt like, she wont drive you and tells you to hitchhike instead, or walk. The "lessons" are often cruel and asymmetrical, in teen years may involve the roof over your head.

7. Ridicule. The jokes on you, even when your not being funny at all. She will ridicule you behind your back in anticipation of what you might be saying. If you have a new job that you are proud of everyone will hear what a crappy job it is and how cute or naiive it is of you to think its worth being proud of. When you share your pride in your new position your revelations are met with smirks and smug comments. They already know about your little "job" and how it isnt what you are saying it is. NMs are so effective at this its uncanny. You can literally hold out a business card or a true job description and still be met with smirks, somehow they manage to cloud the minds of people preemptively like a jedi mind trick. Its no use trying to explain the truth to these people, once shes poisioned the well you never get anywhere.

8. Isolate. While this is not limited to sons of NMs, it is very effective with sons. Siblings dont have real relationships with eachother. They hear positive or negative things about eachother, and are pitted off against eachother from a young age. Ideal to the NM is individual visits with each of the kids. Any group gatherings are kept as short and as structured as possible, they will come up with any number of gimmicks, parlour games, or distractions to ensure that nobody is connecting and that they are the centre of attention. Smartphones are a godsend to NMs in this situation. It takes little effort for them to dredge up some pictures at everyone has to see or some video. This stuff gets whipped out at what may seem the most inappropriate times.
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Re: Sons of Narcissistic Mothers (Adult or otherwise)

Postby BigB » Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:49 pm

Hello all,

First I want to say how grateful I am that this forum is available. Just recently, I have started to read the literature on Narcissism and it's been like, "ooooohhhhhhhhhhhh" so THAT'S what's been happening.....

I had no idea how dysfunctional my family was until I started reading about narcissism. A few quick points:

-I am the son of a narcissistic mother and can relate a great deal to what people have said here. I didn't lose my virginity until late in life, and a large part of the reason was because I had an over-protective, narcissistic mother who said I could not survive on my own. We had a falling out a few years ago because I had to live under her roof for a brief period of time that was job-related. While living under her roof once again, now in my 30s, I turned out to be a nightmare as she became emotionally abusive when the job didn't get well, then after I moved out, began to -what it felt like- stalk me. Despite emails telling her NOT to contact me she did anyways. Finally, last year I called the police to issue a complaint and she hasn't tried to contact me for about 6 months or son now.

-I also have a narcissistic father. He is not as cruel as my mother, although he is tremendously clingy. When we are together, I feel like a 16 year old kid again and I hate it...I hate being treated like a kid. I'm in my late 30s now and...never married with no kids. I wonder how much damage has been done, and how much my single status for many years has to do with no trusting the motives of people because I never trusted my parents' motives. My father showers me with gifts...Yes, I have been the Golden Child in our house and am today and I'm realizing how much harm that has caused. My father also is a gas lighter, his typical response if I call him on something is, "you're simply seeing something that's not there"

Both my parents are highly covertly narcissistic.

This all being said, I have 2 questions:
1) I feel like I need to grieve. I am now in some ways because these books/forums are making me angry - do I need a therapist who is familiar with narcissism? How do I grieve?

2) My mother is now out of the picture, at least for the time being. How do I set boundaries with my father the best way? I sometimes dread his visits because I feel judged, and ultimately, he is the one who manoeuvers himself in the Control position.

Any help appreciated - I am so glad to be on this forum. :D

BB
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Re: Sons of Narcissistic Mothers (Adult or otherwise)

Postby computerology » Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:43 pm

Bigb,

Welcome. I posted this thread on this board hoping that people like you and me looking for the needle in the haystack about our experiences amongst the ocean of daughters of narcissistic mothers information out there.

You dont mention any siblings. If you are an only child it is common for N parents to flip back and forth between golden child and scapegoat due to a variety of environmental triggers. Do you think that this is what hapoened to you? You mention feeling judged, normally the "right thing to do" for a true golden child is whatever the child chooses to do (there are many examples of NMs and NPs enmeshed with their golden child taking on their hobbies, rooting for their favorite sports team, etc.).

I had 7 siblings, and many of them shared your stunted interpersonal romantic relationship development. One sister is 40 and has never had a boyfriend. One sister met a man at nearly 30 and married him immediately. Two of my brothers married the first serious girlfriend that they had late in their 20s. My GC sister did seem to have boyfriends but my mom was all weird around them, she thought that they were "adorable" and eventually her boyfriends didnt come around much.

To your questions:

1) anger is very common and normal when looking back and realizing that the reason your life seemed different from most of your peers was narcissism. You will look back at your past with new eyes and revelations and epiphanies will just come to you out of nowhere. Depending on the incidents which occurred in your past and your personality this may come out as anger, sadness, or even despair. The realization that your parents only cared about themselves all along means letting go of the parent you were hoping to get, just around the corner, for your whole life. It at times can feel like you are a self made orphan.

Whether to seek out therapy is up to you. Therapy will bring out the same emotions you are feeling now, so it doesnt make it go away. If you do seek out therapy, be sure to demand that they specialize in NPD. A regular counsellor will often step to a fellow parents defense and you might end up being judged as paranoid or oversensitive by them, then they start working 180' from the direction you need to go. The wrong therapist could send you off to tell your NPD parents how they have made you feel over the years, and if they really are NPD they dont even care, that empathy the therapist would be looking for is devoid.

2) your father and mother are married (still together?). This poses a problem for you. Anything you tell your father will be rapidly relayed to your mother. Asking for any sort of privacy between a married couple is hard enouhpgh, add NPD and the fact that you are their son and it will make this impossible. So if you dont want your mom stalking you again you will need to be careful of what you divulge to your NF. However, you describe a classic Nparent relationship with your father as well, with the judging, control, etc. You may want to determine just what level of contact thst you are comfortable having with him as well. My own F was an EF (enabler). I cut contact off with him along with the NM, while he comes.across as a disarming geek with limited emotional intuition he did let the NM treat everyone of the kids like crap and take part fully in redirecting every spare moment and penny to the GC sister - who was his step daughter - at the expense of his own kids. Just as guilty IMO.

Something else you may want to consider as you ponder these questions... If your parents have been largely enmeshed in your life and you feel that this lack of independence has stunted your emotional and romantic growth, you may want to explore a sabattical from the both of them for a predetermined amount of time. This can give you the mental head space to think more clearly and you can take advantage of the time to grt yourself into circulation and meet people: friends, friends with benefits, dating girls, one night stands, etc. A sabattical from your parents but also using the freedom of mind to put yourself through a crash course in relstionships. Dont move in with or marry any of the firdt batch, and if you contemplate it be very mindful that you are likely to attract an N or disordered partner. Until you are comfortable in your own skin enough to have solid boundaries and feel comfortable walking away from poor treatment you want to cool it on the major life decisions like kids cohabiting marriage etc.

Hope this helos
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Re: Sons of Narcissistic Mothers (Adult or otherwise)

Postby computerology » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:27 pm

Examples of projection

I figured I would write a bit about samples of projection by my own NM in the case that they help someone. No need to answer but comments are of course welcome.

My NM was always well known for being a drinker. It is odd in their house, my EF stashes away scotch in a hidden book in his office, and will oftentimes invite guests down there when my NM is preoccupied for a tich. He hides his scotch from her because they have this facade that they have markedly cut down on their drinking. Comically, while he is doing this its not uncommon for her to take advantage of the fact he's not around to pull out her stashed bottle of wine and set up camp unseen in the other yard and attempt to down the bottle with her guest before he reappears. She will often say to her guests that if he appears she will hand the glass off to them and say it was they who were drinking the wine. She periodicaly "quits" smoking, which consists of her doing largely the same thing with her cigarettes. Why they dont just enjoy their drinks together is befuddling. They're always sneaking around eachother and their guests find it entirely comical. I find it pretty lame.

When I was growing up there they were way more open about their drinking. Every week they would buy a *case* of cheap bulgarian red wine, along with some tastier varieties of wine, hard liquor, beer. On an average night, they would down two bottles of red wine with dinner, the NM would switch to white wine afterwards and down a bottle of that, while the EF would switch to beer and then scotch, they would often finish off the night with nightcaps of shots of vodka (yuck). I dont judge their drinking, my birth mother was a nonfunctioning alcoholic so I know what problem drinking really is (wasted for days on end). Just context.

So it is an interesting case of projection when remarkably *everyone* in the family and their friends all think that I am a severe alcoholic. For the past 7 years or so I have seen them very rarely at my place, and I have only really seen them when I have been on vacation visiting them. For the record, I do like my drinks, and when on vacation I like them even more. But given the judgemental NM, I've never even gotten tipsy at their place, I just didnt want to feed into the projection. Odd how they would figure I am a severe alcoholic, seeing as they (before I went NC) spent a grand total of about 6 hours over the course of a year visiting me, half of that at miniature family gatherings. The remainder of the time they saw me I was on vacation ready to go camping or just returning from a 9 day camping excursion.

What it is of course, is entirely projection. They scuttle around and hide their drinking from eachother, act as though it's some rare treat to their guests, all the while blabbering about how I have some horrific drinking problem. The irony reached a colossal magnitude one day when my NM was introducing herself to my current girlfriend. She whisked her away to the front yard, polished off two bottles of wine (my gf doesnt drink), was smoking (hiding it from my EF) and telling my girlfriend how she just had to get me to stop drinking, and stop smoking because there was a kid (my gf's) living in the house. I think the part about me having a drinking problem came up when she snuck into the house to grab the second bottle of wine.

----

Another example of projection was related to table manners. As a backgrounder, my NM just never shut up about how she came from this family of lawyers and judges and grew up in this fancy neighborhood in the city and how respected her family was and all this jazz. I was adopted at 13, and while my birth mother was a nonfunctioning addict, I did at times stay with members of my birth family who were quite well off; and some of my birth family did a lot of higher class entertaining so I was often around it.

We would be constantly told by the NM how she would "like to be able to take us out to a restaurant sometime, but with manners as bad as ours she just couldn't take us for fear of embarassment". It was a pretty insulting thing for any parent to say to a kid, but especially for me. My great aunt had taught me 9 ways to fold a table napkin, how to set a table for a five course meal, and I had attended some pretty high class establishments from time to time with some pretty discerning people joining us at the table and I had never once had anyone say that I had bad manners. Once, when the NM and EF were planning to entertain some guests they were particularly interested in impressing, and she had my GC sister setting the table, I noticed that the GC sister was doing it all wrong. I showed her where the forks, dessert plate, dinner plate, soup bowl all went and how to place the napkins on the table. My NM was furious, she grabbed it all and reset it the way that my GC was doing it in the first place - all wrong. I just rolled my eyes and let her have it her way after she exploded on me when I said that that was not a proper table setting.

Eating dinner with this family was literally something else. I had never seen anything like it before in my lifetime. The NM would belch like a wild boar and the kids would all laugh. She once was wolfing down food so fast that she somehow got a 3 inch chicken bone wedged sideways in her throat, the doctors found it amazing that she could miss such a large bone. Regularly there was crap all over her shirt from her meal. The EF was even worse. He would chew with his mouth open, talk at the same time. It took effort to appear to be looking at him when he spoke while trying not to look at the same time. He at least wore a tea towel like a bib because he would wear half his meal.

So yes, us kids were so poorly mannered that we kept poor NM from being able to enjoy an evening out at a restaurant. Projection.

On the subject of food, the feasts that they cooked were nothing short of incredible. There were 6 of us eating, and they would cook up 25 steaks. Being a growing boy, after I ate everything on my plate I would go for seconds and get dirty looks. When I would go for a third steak (realistically, 6 people could each eat 3 steaks and there would probably still be a couple left over) I would be chastised for being greedy. They were saving the extra steaks for leftovers, and I wasnt allowed to have anymore. On a regular steak night there would usually be 10 steaks left over. I guess EF liked to stuff his face at the fridge after midnight, but even he couldnt wolf back 10 steaks. A few would often go rotten, it was such a waste.

Hamburger night was also bizarre. Again there would be far more burgers cooked than we could possibly eat. Again, they were being "saved for leftovers". Once everyone had their burgers on their plate and were getting ready to eat, my EF would microwave a pyrex of cheese to put on *his* hamburger. I was never a fan of plain hamburgers but with my burger already in my mouth I didnt bother to get the cheese until one day down the road. I waited. Then the cheese came out of the microwave, he slopped a bunch on his burger, and when he was done and put the pyrex down and started eating, I walked over and grabbed the cheese (I was sick and tired of plain burgers... they were overcooked as a rule of thumb and dry). The room went so silent it was eery. I didnt notice until I had plopped some cheese on my burger and was walking the pyrex back to EFs end of the table that everyone was staring at me like I was an alien. I guess I wasnt allowed to have cheese on my burger, the unspoken rule had been broken. I asked what was up, and got a curt warning that that was EFs cheese and not for everyone. Talk about weird.

---

Another type of projection that is more subtle and just has to be premeditated is preventative projection, if that makes any sense.

My NM like most NMs with the scapegoat, had a penchant for doing things that were so asymmetrical, so over the top, that you couldnt help but be enraged. The time I got caught drinking and smoking pot for example, coming home from my summer job to find all of my stuff in garbage bags behind the garage, room cleared out and bed dismantled. Or the time my sister had a get together of a bunch of friends to "watch movies" (couples) and I had my rock band come over and she wouldnt let us play; when the parents got home I was the one in serious trouble (she was the GC). Or kicking me out for no reason at all, playing catch 22 with welfare to stop me from getting youth supports (i've written about this at length so I'll keep it real short here) and forcing me to live in a converted tent trailer for a year and a half only two doors away.

The projection? That I was an angry person. Angry all the time. Lashing out, etc. But I wasnt. There were a few times I blew my top at these injustices, but it was limited in scope to the very moment and I was never violent, never swore at them or called them names. It was preventative lying and projection all at the same time. She was the angry one, raging around taking everything out of my room, or forcing me to leave a friends house after a sleepover at 6am because I hadnt made my bed, or transmuting her anger over something else onto me by kicking me out for no known reason at all. She would get raging angry because I got a haircut that she didn't like. You dont kick a 16 year old kid out of the house simply because he has a rock solid defense in support of him getting his drivers license (her reason not to: I liked racing games on the commodore 64- a realistic 2 frames per second) without being filled with raw anger.

It was also very preventative, and a long term view at that. If I had ever even tried to say to someone how I was getting mistreated, they already beleived that I was some angry person lashing out at her. A perfect defense on her part. Us ACONs collectively feel that nobody would beleive us. This was her methodology and she kept it up well into the future even decades after I had left that house. The rationale: her brother molested my friend and eventually things like that rise to the surface. It did - I went to the cops a year ago and they charged him for what he did to a different victim. Apparently she sang such a tune at the police station the cops were wondering why on earth she was spending the entire time trying to get me arrested. (I have a great working relationship with the police in my community). I'm sure my "anger" came up more than a few times.

---

The narcissists art of projection is a marvel. It is also extremely destructive.

As I have noticed up to when I went NC with my NM and EF, it seems to warp and mature when the kids are gone and the family starts to disintigrate. I guess this is technically "enmeshing" but it is also an odd form of projection.

Any slight against my GC sister invokes an asymmetrical rebuke from my NM. I was hanging out with my brother recently, and he had spent an afternoon with my GC sister the day before and had plans with her to do it again. He bailed on her, citing that he hadnt seen me in years and had seen her just the day before. Guess who called on the phone and hung on for half an hour, wanting to check to see if my brother was still coming up to visit them? Yup, the NM. That communication feedback loop was so quick that it was nothing short of incredible. And the fact that my GC sister wasnt there when all the other siblings were (weird) and my brother simply texted her, and the NM called within 10 minutes - I had already gone NC at that point. I guess NC with the NM means NC with the GC sister. Bailing on the GC sister is just like bailing on the NM, see?

I recall having my NM and EF over to show them my amazing home theatre rig. It was huge, 17 foot diagnoal floor to ceiling wall to wall. I thought it might be fun to have them over for a movie sometime. Before I could even finish describing how the thing worked, my NM drifted off talking about how my GC sister had some very nice things, and started commenting on how she had stainless steel kitchen appliances. Another example was when I went to Ottawa. I had barely started describing my trip and then I started hearing about how my GC sister had gone to Ottawa (she never had, it was a lie).

They say some parents live vicariously though their children, and the GC / NM dynamic takes it to a whole new level. She rolls off things that my sister said about me to her that were never said, like how happy my GC sister was about my new job (my sister didnt know I had a new job, I ended up telling her about it later). If my GC sister is doing something my NM blabbers that she is doing the same thing. The oddest was running. My NM is 63. My GC sister is 37 and is getting into running marathons. NM has never been a runner her whole life. I start hearing about how my NM has been running half marathon distances. I know it's bull, she cant lift a heavy plant pot on her own, she's a wispy raisin, Shes not fat anymore but running a half marathon is quite the feat for someone even half her age.

I may be getting the term wrong but to me this feels like projection. If I have something nicer than my NM, my GC has something nicer than I have, even if she doesn't. Its an odd distraction she has been using over the past five or so years so she doesn't have to put herself out and be caught lying. Someone can only buy so many new kitchen appliances before it just sounds silly.

A digression here... My NM actually got angry and vindictive enough to get POed that I had a nicer washer/dryer set than her or my GC sister. I had four adults and a kid living in my house, the energy bill was through the roof so I sprung for the best most efficient set I could get my hands on. I was talking about the washer and how it was HE2 complaint, with this thing the dryer would finish a full load on 500 watt mode in 20 minutes, lapping the wsaher. She said she had a HE2 washer too, although it was a top loader (they dont exist). I later heard how she was lamenting to one of my brothers how I didnt deserve such a fine washing machine, my GC sister has a son and she needed something like that more than I did. I dunno, she probably ran out to buy my sister a better one afterwards just to keep up with the joneses. I thought that the person who deserved to have something was the one who shelled out the money to buy it. Wack.

I'm guessing that BigB who wrote above probably could explain a lot of how my sister sees things.

=====

On another note, NMs are indian givers. No disrespect to native indians, I'm part native so i'd be disrespecting myself.

My NM had pledged so many items to me, then given them to someone else. They were replacing their dishwasher, and I as asked if I wanted it. Of course, I was living in a small apartment and I hated doing dishes by hand, it was portable so I could take it if I moved. I went over there and saw the brand new dishwasher, and asked about the old one. It had been given to the church. When I said that fugging thing was mine and I wanted to go get it, she protested and protested and protested. Eventually my EF just called the church and said there was a mistake. Oddly enough, the church didnt want it, it was my NM's insistence of giving it to them and eventually they just buckled. They were going to sell it; they already had a nicer newer dishwasher in their kitchen down below.

Before I went NC, I was supposed to be the benefactor of their piano, apparently they didnt want it anymore and since I liked playing it NM offered it to my girlfriend. Moving a full size piano is no easy feat and they already had a reputation for giveth and taketh away in the same breath. Now that I'm NC it's probably at the church, was probably already there when it was offered to me, LOL. Plus it was hopelessly out of tune with broken keys, I had nowhere to put it anyways. Better to be NC than hold out for a trashed piano.

---

Projection <> Gaslighting

Some forms of projection are easily misinterpereted as gaslighting. Projection is when the NM projects her negative traits or the traits of her GC onto someone else to distract the issue. The drinking above is an excellent example.

Gaslighting is where they try to make you look like the crazy one. Say they smashed something of yours, by accident, or by "accident", either way. When you approach them to seek reconciliation, ie like a replacement or money, they flatly deny that they broke it and suggest that you must have broken it, and how silly of you to ask them to help you get a new one. Its that bold face lie that drives you insane. You know they broke it, perhaps you watched them break it or they were the only one home at the time. Yet they insinuate that you are being crazy for accusing them of breaking it. That's gaslighting.

Gaslighting could be tied to projection if, say, they accuse you of being prone to stealing (when they themselves are, for example) and when later on you fire it back at them, and make mention of how they accused you of being prone to stealing (particularly in front of another person) and they flatly deny that they said anything like that at all.

---
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Re: Sons of Narcissistic Mothers (Adult or otherwise)

Postby DNoble1389 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:52 pm

computerology wrote:On the subject of food, the feasts that they cooked were nothing short of incredible. There were 6 of us eating, and they would cook up 25 steaks. Being a growing boy, after I ate everything on my plate I would go for seconds and get dirty looks. When I would go for a third steak (realistically, 6 people could each eat 3 steaks and there would probably still be a couple left over) I would be chastised for being greedy. They were saving the extra steaks for leftovers, and I wasnt allowed to have anymore. On a regular steak night there would usually be 10 steaks left over. I guess EF liked to stuff his face at the fridge after midnight, but even he couldnt wolf back 10 steaks. A few would often go rotten, it was such a waste.

Hamburger night was also bizarre. Again there would be far more burgers cooked than we could possibly eat. Again, they were being "saved for leftovers". Once everyone had their burgers on their plate and were getting ready to eat, my EF would microwave a pyrex of cheese to put on *his* hamburger. I was never a fan of plain hamburgers but with my burger already in my mouth I didnt bother to get the cheese until one day down the road. I waited. Then the cheese came out of the microwave, he slopped a bunch on his burger, and when he was done and put the pyrex down and started eating, I walked over and grabbed the cheese (I was sick and tired of plain burgers... they were overcooked as a rule of thumb and dry). The room went so silent it was eery. I didnt notice until I had plopped some cheese on my burger and was walking the pyrex back to EFs end of the table that everyone was staring at me like I was an alien. I guess I wasnt allowed to have cheese on my burger, the unspoken rule had been broken. I asked what was up, and got a curt warning that that was EFs cheese and not for everyone. Talk about weird.


Computerology, There's a pretty messed up reason for this behavior.

SImply put, the longer the food lasts the longer the supply hit lasts for the narcissist. Plus they only want supply. Seeing you truly happy makes them envious, and angry.

My NF will get visibly angry, and sad when i throw away EMPTY cereal boxes, milk cartons, throw away plastic containers, etc INSTEAD of leaving them on the kitchen counter as his trophy items for that week. He likes to go to the restaurant Famous Dave's, and after we all eat he washes out the throw away containers, and stacks them atop one another in the kitchen, and leaves them there for a week. He likes to buy fruit simply because it looks nice stacked high in the kitchen. Instead of putting plums, and grapes in the refrigerator he rather and repeatedly HAS waited for the left out fruit to rot, and gather nats. He rather leave 4 empty cereal boxes atop the fridge instead of throwing them out to keep up his facade.

My father only "attempts" to "cook" :oops: in order to gain supply. The food is ALWAYS disgusting, and he always kicks out his guests after they adore him for a short time. YET MY MOM ALWAYS ENABLES THIS PSYCHOTIC BEHAVIOR BY INVITING OVER MY YOUNG NIECES TO GET SICK FROM EATING HIS SLOP, NEARLY EVERY WEEKEND!!!......sorry. That one gets to me. :evil: :D

In regards to dinner, and food in general i've found that (from growing up with numerous foster brothers) that my Narc father HATED when we enjoyed a certain type of food. My father would recommend that my mom buy food items that neither i, or my brothers enjoyed to eat. Not to save money, because we were getting nearly 5k a month.

Then there's the push-pull. Again, they need supply from you, but they envy you if you show them that you are truly happy. :shock:

I know the thread is for NM's, but really my mom is such an enabling puppet with N traits, that she is pretty much exactly like my father.
Last edited by DNoble1389 on Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sons of Narcissistic Mothers (Adult or otherwise)

Postby BigB » Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:04 am

Hello Computerology,

Yes it does help – a great deal. Probably the first remark I’ve heard from someone who gets it.
It’s true that there is more info out there for daughters than for sons.
I have one brother who lives out west. I think basically he got side tired of family that he decided to literally run away – avoidance was his strategy. It has worked for him in the sense that he has found his independence although hasn’t worked in the sense that he’s a very bitter person.

My mother is out of the picture now. I have no contact with her – I called the police because the harassing got so bad, so calling the cops and filing a report stopped it. It got to the point where she left messages at my work place and found out where I lived even though my address/phone number was unlisted. My parents are divorced and also don’t’ talk with one another. So now, it’s mostly just my father I’m dealing with.

I was the golden child I am quite sure. The examples you gave re: hobbies, sports teams are exactly what I experience with my father. When father takes on my hobbies, I took a picture of a deer and sent it to him; then he sent me a pic from deer near his place. He sucks up to me like there’s no tomorrow when I visit him: he agrees with everything I say (AT FIRST) and likes everything I like. But here’s the trap: once I warm up to him and get comfortable around him (lower my guard) then he starts the real enmeshment with words like “we like” “out tastes” and even to the point of close to tears when I leave followed by a thank-you follow up letter after every visit. He told me recently he wants more time together – we see each other about once every 2 months now. As for me, I don’t want more together at all….I want LESS. The thing with him is this: when I get closer to him after getting enmeshed, THEN he starts the subtle undermining by discounting what I think is important, suggesting there is something wrong with my car and that I should by a new one, and becoming more and more critical. That’s how he gets control: when he finds me looking for his approval. He’s a needy person, very needy. And now that my bro is out of the picture (almost) I think he turns to me for narcissistic supply. He’s good though – very good at manipulation and any time I’ve called him on his stuff, he refuses to admit responsibility and as mentioned in the last post, “you’re simply seeing something that’s not there”

How much of the above is conscious with him?

Setting boundaries will be a nightmare with him. Last year, I went on a trip to Europe on my own and didn’t tell him (he is often over-protective and will give me all the damn warning in the world before I go). Once I got there, on my own, in a place he’d never been, I felt so FREE. For once, neither one of my parents had anything to do with me and I had INDEPENDENCE. I loved it!!! Now I set her near 40, never married, no kids, and wonder how much of the reason could be that so much of my energy/space has been devoted to pleasing my parents.

I would really appreciate any more comments. In terms of relationships, I tell my father nothing about them and keep everything to myself. I’ve had lots of partners, but nothing long term. I think it could be because of trust issues with me: when I get close to my father (as described above) there are ALWAYS strings attached (Last year, he offered to pay for half my new deck and still gives gifts in the hundreds). So I think I’ve learned to keep my distance from intimate relationships because it’s just safer. But now that defense is hurting my life because I’m not getting what I really want. My mother is close to a psychopath, and my father was with her for 17 years. He’s nicer on the outside, but doesn’t water seep to it’s own level? And you’re right about the counselling thing: It pisses me off when friends say, “Of course your father (or mother) want contact with you – they are your parents!” That misses the point completely. I think I’ve been emotionally damaged – severely damaged- by both my parents and it’s just now I’m waking up to the fact. I exist to please them, and my accomplishments (in their eyes) have nothing to do with me, they are about them looking good.

I like your idea of a sabbatical, although how do I communicate with my father that more space is what I needed?

THANK YOU!
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Re: Sons of Narcissistic Mothers (Adult or otherwise)

Postby computerology » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:46 am

BigB wrote:Hello Computerology,

Yes it does help – a great deal. Probably the first remark I’ve heard from someone who gets it.
It’s true that there is more info out there for daughters than for sons.


No worries my man. I started this thread so that sons of narcissistic mothers could find SOMETHING in the search other than mother-daughter stuff. I contemplated starting a blog about it, but figured this would be enough work for now and give people like you and I something to find.

BigB wrote:I think basically he got side tired of family that he decided to literally run away – avoidance was his strategy. It has worked for him in the sense that he has found his independence although hasn’t worked in the sense that he’s a very bitter person.


I have a sister who did exactly the same thing and turned out the same way. Poor girl is so mixed up and bitter when I went no contact she flipped out on me and thought I was up to something. I was just looking for someone to share war stories with who was out of the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt)

BigB wrote:I was the golden child I am quite sure. The examples you gave re: hobbies, sports teams are exactly what I experience with my father. When father takes on my hobbies, I took a picture of a deer and sent it to him; then he sent me a pic from deer near his place. He sucks up to me like there’s no tomorrow when I visit him: he agrees with everything I say (AT FIRST) and likes everything I like.


Definitely sounds like my NM with my GC sister. I cant give you much perspective from a golden childs perspective because I was a scapegoat and my GC sister has not awakened yet to reality. She still has her head buried in the sand, likely on purpose. I know she's had issues with my NM but I dont hear anything about it, she's still into trying to keep up appearances.

BigB wrote:then he starts the real enmeshment with words like “we like” “out tastes”


This is exceedingly common between a N parent and the golden child. You and he are the same person in his mind. He probably puts words in your mouth for you when talking to other family, siblings, etc. because he is you and you are he to him. I know my NM does that with my GC sister. I heard for 15 minutes how happy she was about my new job. Then when I talked to her she didnt know I had gotten a new job. Examples of this are endless.

You're on the enmeshed golden child treadmill, thats for sure.

BigB wrote:undermining by discounting what I think is important, suggesting there is something wrong with my car and that I should by a new one, and becoming more and more critical.


If you have a shiny, brand new car that you're paying for he gets all the bragging rights (because you are him and he is you) without paying a dime. If you buy one on his recommendation all the better because it was his idea, never mind the fact that you're paying for it. So when you're all happy in your shiny new car he will suck the joy out of it by repeating that it was his idea that you buy it ad nauseum.

BigB wrote:He’s a needy person, very needy.


All narcissists are. They need to be adored, waited on hand and foot, told constantly how fantastic they are for being alive. Apparently underneath the grandiose king of the world bull they tout to everyone in the outside world they feel like a useless POS

BigB wrote:“you’re simply seeing something that’s not there”

How much of the above is conscious with him?


That is called gaslighting. As in no I didnt tell your girlfriend she is a fat ugly pig but she is a fat ugly pig so maybe you're imagining I spoke the truth.

I have heard from one member on here that people with NPD do things entirely unconsciously. Sometimes I would agree, but other times it seems cold and calculated. I'm not sure how it works in the relationship with the golden child, with the scapegoat it just has to be premeditated at times, its just too well throught out to be impulsive. With the golden child it could be more impulsive.

Remember if he sees you as the best reflection on him there will even be fear on his part of doing something "wrong" that could irk you and send you away. He has too much invested in you making him look good and he cant poision the well water and save face.

You as the golden child are in a position of great power over him, whether he will acknowledge it or not (likely not). If you move to Mexico he will probably move to Mexico. If you learn Spanish he will try to learn Spanish. Coming from my perspective as a scapegoat, I'd try to have fun with it by getting absorbed in things that would be nearly impossible for him to do, like professional martial arts, kickboxing, weight lifting. But I can see where you're coming from, you're starved for oxygen, that kind of game playing probably wouldn't turn your crank. My GC sister, when I was ready to give up on my NM and EF because they came down every 2-6 weeks to the city here where we live and I hadnt had a visit to my house by them in 8 years, actually said to me, "Take them... Please. They come here and spend the whole weekend at my house from Friday when they arrive to Sunday when they leave". I'm sure you and her are in the same boat.

BigB wrote:I like your idea of a sabbatical, although how do I communicate with my father that more space is what I needed?


Sounds like you dont need the sabattical to play with girls. :lol:

I dont know how you would communicate that sort of thing because like I said, I was a scapegoat. Just getting them to recognize me or spend time with me without babbling about my GC sister incessantly and comparing how much better she was doing or belittling my whole life than me was effort. If I dont call them they dont call me and now that I'm NC they arent trying at all to get me back on board.

You might just try the simple route. Tell him that your job has a really big project coming up and that you're going to be offline for three or four months because between working your ass off and trying to get some downtime you're just not going to have time for anyone. Or you could say that your work is sending you away (if you dont think he could show up at your work or your house) for three months and you'll talk to him when you get back. Be prepared with a story though, because you will get inevitably peppered with questions about what you're work is getting you to do ( so he can brag). You might want to keep it as ambiguous as you can while putting enough meat on the bone to keep him from thinking you're hiding something; like that they have a big project but that the details will be filled in once you get there, that you will be staying at a colleagues house that you dont know or that they havent picked the hotel where everyone will be staying yet.

Golden children rarely figure out whats going on because they have it "so good". But I can totally appreciate, how having your parents (or father) hovering around all the time could impact your life. Parents are supposed to be there for us, not our closest buddies. But remember you havent got it all bad... My parents gave me the same christmas present every year: a second hand coffee grinder. And forgot that they gave me the same thing the year before. Thats when they did even bother to get me a gift.

THANK YOU!
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Re: Sons of Narcissistic Mothers (Adult or otherwise)

Postby Shazam » Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:48 pm

Just gotta say how much I love this line: “you’re simply seeing something that’s not there.” I realize the line comes from your father, not your mother -- but wow, does it remind me of my nMom's go-to gaslighting phrase: "I never do."

One of my favorite stories about my dear nMom: about five years back -- when I hadn't yet realized that trying to talk it out with an N is futile -- I tried telling my mom that she had a bad habit of saying "I never do" when people like me or my stepfather would call her out for doing something inappropriate. Her response to this observation? "I never do." Seriously. Without a trace of irony or humor.

I laughed out loud at that moment. But it was actually a pivotal dialogue: helped me understand that it was time to cut my losses, accept the fact that she ain't never going to change, and move on.

“you’re simply seeing something that’s not there.” LOL. That is some textbook invalidation and gaslighting right there.
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Re: Sons of Narcissistic Mothers (Adult or otherwise)

Postby computerology » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:29 pm

My NM's gaslighting techniques are:

1. I dont remember anything like that happening (optional: add in a story of how she "remembers" it thats not even close to what happened)

2. Oh that was so long ago, if it was such a problem then why are you bringing it up now?

3. This isnt about what happened. This is about you! (optional: some reason how bringing this up would potentially benefit the person calling her out on her behavior)

4. Cry, leave the room.

In that order of frequency as well
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Re: Sons of Narcissistic Mothers (Adult or otherwise)

Postby BigB » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:50 pm

Just a quick note to check in .... I've been ++ busy lately so not much time to write. Computerology - yes, you've been through some pretty messed up stuff as the scapegoat in your family. apparently the story of Cinderella resembles that of the scapegoat, Rupunzel that of the GC. Thanks a million for you comments on my post - all very helpful. Yes, my father is very covert and it can be an incredibly difficult thing to decide what boundaries need to be set because the reality is, the good parts of him are just as real as the Narcisstic parts. Last year, I went through a time of many months with very little contact and a must say, I felt much better. Most of my contact with him now is out of obligation I believe. I want some contact, just limited. Everytime I'm with him I feel uneasy, manipulative, and definitely on the defense because I know how easily I can get sucked in. No wonder I don't trust people, eh? :D
Thanks again, will return to this forum with more to write, there is great info here. I like what you wrote about projection by you NM. Insidious.

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