A few questions....why is this happening?

As I was reading articles on borderline personalities I saw everything unfold before my eyes. It was if you were with me throughout the whole ordeal. Then I got to the rebound relationship part and for some reason I thought NO this new guy and her are different, she has changed for him why? In the beggining whe would contact me and tell me how she changed and was so much better off with a new start it hurt (which I know was her purpose) Then after time of no contact she contacts me and I listen to her and see how everything unfolds. She is doing to him what she did to me. So why then contact me? She was very clear when she left saying that she had no emotions for me at all. Why did she ask me to go away with her? She asked me to go to the shore with her on a weekend when her new guy will be away. Is she at that phase where she wants him to start questioning and dropping everything for her.....she wants him to find out? right? Now for my main question.....Is what she does to a relationship, is it a conscious effort or is it just how the bpd?hpd person acts? A friend of mine told me to be careful that when she does this guy in she will be back to finish me off....from what I read they never come back to one of there victims especially one that still cares is that true? Why is this pattern so obvious yet so hard for ME to figure out and move beyond? yes, she did make me feel the best I ever felt, yet she also made me feel the worst I ever felt to but for some reason that is ok. It is not and I know that but damn if she walked through that door right now I would walk over and kiss her stupid face. It is funny how in one 25 min conversation she can say how wonderful things are at one point and then 10 min later she says" well, I am doing ok" what is that? Is she baiting for me to act like a fool for her? Well with all the reading I have done I kept a even demeanor and wished her the best. We never got back on the subject of gooing away lets see if words and actions are the same. They are hard to figure out!!

Dude,

I seriously advise against going with her to the 'shore', or wherever it is she wants to bring you. She has a boyfriend, and you should respect that (even if she doesn't wish to respect it). You are better than her, but by going with her behind her boyfriend's back, I believe you are resorting to a level close to her's. Even if nothing actually happened (sexually-speaking), the fact would still be that she went behind her boyfriend's back to see you.

I cannot say if she has BPD/HPD or not. I believe it's unimportant though. What is important is for you to not let her dictate things again. The next time she wants you to do something, put your foot down, say no, and then ignore her. She was quite happy to ignore you at the beginning of her relationship and/or send hurtful comments to you. Why should you be kind to her in any way?

Kevin

You are right....I had no plans to go with her and never said I would. I am better then her but why? Why out of no where has she come to me. Was/is this a conscious decision and what does she gain from it? Was the time we spent together all a conscious decision....move by move.....And believe me she is HPD/BPD everything I have read about their moves and decisions and demeanor fits to a T. Can someone answer these and the questions I asked in my original post? I have made great strides in moving forward and now this.....

I'll believe you when you say that she exhibits the BPD/HPD symptoms, but if you already recognise this, then surely you can put two-and-two together to understand why she is back? She is most likely bored of her new boyfriend and wants to toy around with you now. Once she finds another new guy, she will ditch you [again] and her current partner and you will not hear from her (until she gets bored of him too). This is what they do. She wil always hang onto your number and maintain a 'slight' relationship, just to keep you hanging on by a thread. Then, whenever she wants you, she knows that you'll be there for her willing to give support. Well, I say to just cut her out of your life right now; no ifs or buts about it.

I am male, but I behaved like her in the past towards girls. Also, I have been in your position too - i.e. the victim.

Kevin

Sorry dude. I'm aware that i've come across as being arrogant here. I just dislike seeing guys like you being victims of people like her.

Look after yourself chief.

Kevin

OK you had questions, here goes for some answers - remember its just one man's opinion...

damnifyoudo wrote:has she has changed for him, why?

Simple answer is no. HPD patterns take 1-2 years of concentrated therapy (with a very strong desire on their part to change) to alter the ingrained histrionic personality pattern. What you are seeing is someone else in a different phase of the classic HPD encounter - the pursue/capture/morph into anything the mate wants/conquer phase.

damnifyoudo wrote:So why then contact me?

If she has HPD its likely a few parts of it have been revealed in ultra brief flashes to Mr. New. These subliminal flashes may not even register (yet) with him (men are slow…) but on some likely subconscious level she is aware that her awful flaws may have begun to show. Again, unconsciously, she has calculated her chance of being rejected by him may be up a notch. Result - potential separation anxiety. And that is debilitating for her.

OR

She is reaching satiation over her conquest over him, and the initial high of that -- someone succumbing to her irresistible desirability -- is wearing off. That drug (her potential mate becoming hopelessly in love/undyingly committed to her) doesn't last and could now be waning.

I like to think of it as the Groucho Marx complex "I don't care to belong to any club that will have me as a member". She will at first fantasize her man is the ideal catch, oh the desire for him will be keen! However once caught, she will flip and determine - WTF was I thinking! This guy isn't actually ideal at all!

They really want a guy better than they can imagine. As a start that imaginary image is an internal, very lofty, very idealistic image of their own dad they had growing up. This super idealized image was formed at age 1-12. Actually the image is of the dad she didn't really have! Plus this idealized mate image is above her loftiest internal image of her mom (who frustratingly withheld herself from the HPD, and beat the HPD out in having dad all to herself. So this M/F combo, super idealized image of a mate is the only true mate they can give themselves fully over to. It’s the mate they win over sexually/seductively that finally delivers all the love their real parents somehow withheld. Of course no one, on close examination, ever measures up. No one. The HPD didn’t win the love of her parents back then, so when it comes down to the wire, they can’t win with a long-term mate in the present. They are screwed! If the seduction is successful then in hindsight the mate didn’t measure up. If the seduction is not successful, the HPD wasn’t attractive or “good” enough (as was the case back then...) There you have it. A perpetual motion machine of eternal hope followed by utter frustration.

The pre "disappointment phase is highly charged and erotic -- "Eureka, I’m finally going to win, feel whole and loved at long, long last!” Then, that’s followed, once again, by, "oh no, because the mate actually does loves me they couldn't possibly be the one, I’ve just been deceived. Yes this is all a huge enigma and paradox but the pattern seems to fit the adult HPD behavior very closely.

She is like a drug addict coming off a high. Its like a an iceberg of self loathing that is medicated with all the high water around, it so only a small, innocent tip shows in her personality, and causes only occasional lighthearted trouble. As the "medication" wears off (the water level drops) more and more of the the iceberg of loathing is revealed. It’s a huge inferiority complex / self esteem deficit / not measuring up feeling. As the soothing water drops she becomes more and more just a "desperate chick" looking to hook up so she's not alone. She searches the dance hall for someone, anyone to take her home and love her. The best guy available at that particular time just sits back and lets her seduce him! She’s absolutely not in control of herself and purely/fear need driven.

You can be thankful you are not in the shoes of an HPD as they experience the withdrawal and reemergence of intense internal pain. That can’t be fun!

damnifyoudo wrote:She was very clear when she left saying that she had no emotions for me at all. Why did she ask me to go away with her?

Odd as it may seem, both statements can be true in her mind. "I have no emotions for you" -- meant at that particular moment she had no need whatsoever for you. You had served your purpose and were at all times expendable. She then moved on and found new supply. Despite all you "had" in terms of a bonded relationship, in an instant that evaporated inside her. Think of full amnesia or Rohypnol -the date rape drug that erases - the pair bond, that would normally be very persistent in a normal couple, just chemically dissolves in the HPD and goes to zero! The thrill was there initially there - in full force, has vanished in an instant, poof! What's more is she has zero remaining pair bond feeling or remorse over that.

The second part - why did she ask me to go away with her - again, as impossible as this may seem, is also true, in her mind. She is running short of supply, and you have been a reliable drug dealer in the past. Anything is better than spending time alone by herself, questioning and ruminating that "no one loves me, no one wants me, and no one finds me attractive." Fear of total abandonment! HPDs lack the inner strength that says, WTF, I'm a great person all by myself. I can be alone and still be 100% whole, totally fine. I don't need outside attention to feel good about myself. Sure it’s nice to have a great partner, but I can easily exist for very long periods with out it and still feel great. They can't get there. So their lust for fresh blood to feed on is truly vampire like. But again, don't try to alter reality by just wishing that isn’t the way they are. Be glad you don't have this thirsty longing emerging in yourself!

Remember that her wanting you back is not the reality of "oh, I made a terrible mistake, I really had and wanted a lifelong, enduring pair bond with you, we absolutely belong together. I'm really typical, I only want you, and exclusively you, forever, till the end of time. That is all a fantasy at phase one. We can have a blissful normal, long term loyal/bonded relationship from here to eternity... I'll constantly mold myself into whoever you want me to be, I'll be your ultimate Stepford Wife, only without the robot like features... Slap yourself and wake up. In act two that all goes away.

damnifyoudo wrote:Is she at that phase where she wants him to start questioning and dropping everything for her.....she wants him to find out? right?

Wrong. You are imputing too much typical/normal/non HPD/rational thought to her actual behavior. She is nowhere near that consciously calculated. Impulsive means not thinking ahead. Her instinctive/seductive ways of extracting her needed supply (your devotion, adoration, worship, adoring...) while she remains, on one level, 100% not committed, are fully automatic in her. She doesn't have to calculate it out step by step. The moves just come naturally. She is masterful at it without any conscious effort on her part whatsoever. Just read the stuff on the typical HPD cognitive style - no wonder they can think fast on their feet and read you like a book. They are exceptional in many areas!

damnifyoudo wrote:Now for my main question.....Is what she does to a relationship, is it a conscious effort or is it just how the bpd?hpd person acts?

The above may answer your question but think of it this way - you are a man and she is a hungry lion. You are both in the woods. Are you going to blame her for hunting you down and eating you limb by limb, all with zero remorse, left only with joy of enjoying her delicious meal? At long last she is rid of those terrible hunger pangs that instinctively drive the rest of her body into her behaviors? After the kill and the feed, does the lion feel horrible guilt and remorse? Is it in their very nature, the need to eat? This is no different; so don't blame the lion for existing! There is nothing personal about the need to eat...

damnifyoudo wrote:A friend of mine told me to be careful that when she does this guy in, she will be back to finish me off.... from what I read they never come back to one of there victims especially one that still cares is that true?

Again not true. You need to read more, much more. You will always be hunted down if she is hungry and you offer her food, AND she can't get a "bigger, better, meal deal" elsewhere. Yes, the fact you still care means you are absolutely low hanging fruit!

damnifyoudo wrote:Why is this pattern so obvious yet so hard for ME to figure out and move beyond?

You need to think of this tango as you as a typical human and her as an alien, only dressed up as a human. A very seductive one at that! What's hard is in every other area of her life the HPD is just like any other full wonderful human. Then add the exceptionally positive traits of her being able to read non-verbal human emotions better than virtually everyone else out there, her ability to attract potential mates like a super conducting magnet, her ability to morph into your fantasy girl, and her well honed skills at seduction that even the most powerful mythical siren would admire! What a combo!

The only area they "suffer" in is cross gender intimate relations. (And, in reality most of the actual suffering is done by the nons…) This intimate relations area is often the only area that is very problematic in their lives - relating to mates. In general an HPD feels all of her behavior here is perfectly normal. That's reality for them, so there is zero felt need to change.

Look at the number of Non's on this forum who have not understood what they were up against and paid the price. Do not be naive. Do not challenge reality or the well-established, large sample odds of long term relationship success here. If she is HPD and has zero inclination to change you have about a nill chance of long-term relationship bliss.

Were you to have five true diagnosed NPDs personally coaching you all along the way on this forum, with posts to you every day, and you read all the clinical material on it, and fully absorbed all that, I'd still give you a 50/50 chance of having a good relationship with a HPD past a five year mark. Be sure to read the first person accounts that actual NPDs have honestly posted here, how they felt, what they are doing to fight NPD, how's it going, etc. Look up their posts by username.

Bottom line is, its your life to lead. If you must stay in the game with a HPD for God’s sake put on as much amour as you can (knowledge), have ample external empathetic support on your end. Get her in qualified therapy and read everything you can get your hands on HPD.

That’s not to say this forum wouldn't welcome some really wonderful success stories!

damnifyoudo wrote:Is she baiting for me to act like a fool for her?

No, that would require conscious effort on her part and an evil intent. She is not evil, just has HPD.

You are fully in charge of yourself here. She can't make you act like a fool - only you can do that. My suggestion is to really put some time and effort into really understanding HPD, if you are seriously considering going forward with her. Only a fool would continue forward as "blind" as you currently are, based on what you already demonstrate you know. I don't mean to be harsh just want you to gird yourself for full battle if you are up against HPD.

Sink in a few hours looking at HPD here, effective treatment, what makes it so addicting, etc. Ask yourself honestly did I have perceptual / knowledge errors about her up to today? If so, and you intend to go forward, make a decision to close up the gaps in your knowledge of HPD.

At least that way you will have a better chance of not getting eaten alive!

Best of luck in finding your bliss... You are in the drivers seat here.

Ah, Wisdom, your user name is well chosen.
Great stuff, that.

And Damnifyoudo: believe me, he's right. As for your still wanting to walk over and kiss her, despite everything you know - this too will pass. I was like that up to about 6 or 7 weeks ago, as my posts at that time will demonstrate. Keep reading up on HPD, and listening to those of us who've been there with an HPD female, and you will find that feeling fading very fast.

Only thing I disagree with you on Wisdom:

I think HPD's do want their "steady" to find out about their other guys. Not just on some very deep subconscious level either. If an HPD gets another guy - silly me, what am I writing - WHEN an HPD gets another guy, she simply has to start talking about him with the "steady." Half-truths, of course, but still. And she will keep talking about him until the "steady" starts to wonder.

Just instinctive, unthinking behavior? I dunno. At the very least, they want the "steady" to say, "He's after you, be careful, how can any man just be friends with someone as amazing as you?" They also want him to feel nervous, jealous, so that he can work harder.

They also - this is my take - want some kind of revenge against the "steady" for having so cruelly failed to live up to their expectations. So an element of real sadism creeps into the HPD's treatment of him when she's in this devaluing phase. She wants him, on some level, simply to suffer for having wasted her time.

Hey, wisdom you either are a psychiatrist or have done a lot of reading on this subject. I too, have done much reading over the year and I do have a 40% knowledge of the problems. I think my problem lies within. It is me now that I reading about and starting to understand why I act or value myself the way I do. I guess it is hard for me to fully grasp the insanity of having something so good and not wanting it when you get there. The lion story makes sense, as the drug one, that one I have read many times. Thats just it, I get that analogy but I can't wrap my brain around the histrionic mind. Food is food and drugs are drugs but life........is it just life?
Oh, and no I am never going to go or get back with her, I just didn't understand why. She knows about the disorder, her mother told her long before me, and told me 5-6 months into our relationship. And yes, her mother wants nothing to do with her just like when she was a child. She was sent over to grandma's house all the time. She absolutley craves her mother's attention and when she gets some, she jumps all over it, talks about it, and thinks all is getting better. I know for a fact her mother wants NOTHING to do with her. She told me herself. That is where I think I get sucked into, I saw my mother get hit and cheated on at age 5, I remember standing in the bathroom door watching her cry cause i told her that I saw daddy kissing another woman, the sadness was overwhelming to her. How could I help her stop crying and not be in so much pain. This is exactly why I am reading so much now about me, I am starting to see why I felt the pain so bad and that if I don't start having stronger self worth and stronger sense of one self that I could be paralyzed mentally for life. I asked those question on here not because I didn't already now but to hear it form others in basically the same way. Especially now that I have some knowledge. Wisdom, reading what you wrote and how you described things was of serious value.... thankyou.

Thought you guys might like to know how I came to chose the user name "Wisdom" .... I want to assure you I'm on the seeking side of it - its just aspirational for me.

Ecclesiastes: 12-18

Wisdom Is Meaningless
12 I, the Teacher, was king over Israel in Jerusalem. 13 I devoted myself to study and to explore by wisdom all that is done under heaven. What a heavy burden God has laid on men! 14 I have seen all the things that are done under the sun; all of them are meaningless, a chasing after the wind.

15 What is twisted cannot be straightened;
what is lacking cannot be counted.

16 I thought to myself, "Look, I have grown and increased in wisdom more than anyone who has ruled over Jerusalem before me; I have experienced much of wisdom and knowledge." 17 Then I applied myself to the understanding of wisdom, and also of madness and folly, but I learned that this, too, is a chasing after the wind.

18 For with much wisdom comes much sorrow;
the more knowledge, the more grief.

---above is oddly very appropriate to what I've learned about HPD. Yet, hope springs eternal. There is considerable mental horsepower and collective experience on this forum and in the professional literature. While HPD is challenging, working in parallel might help get after it? Or, is that just the madness and folly...a chasing after the wind... I admit, I don't really know for sure


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damnifyoudo,

Hang in man. Hope I did not sound condescending. Your username struck me - similar to the above thought. Keep seeking and you will find answers. I'm struck by my experience doing group sessions with "ground zero" separated and divorced people (from first separation to about 1 year later). They had a huge need to tell their story. And often it had to be repeated, several times in the "public" group. Especially when they just couldn't believe what happened... Everyone else understood what was going on and the need to repeat. In the frequent retelling (perhaps in different words at times, with different emerging feelings attached, but sometimes just plain over and over...) the overwhelmed person over time came to grips with what had happened. So, I'm very much in tune with your approach, because I do know that it works!

Compton,

Appreciate your comment. Although I find it fascinating and would very much like to delve much deeper, I've spent a limited time in the sadism / masochism area. Most of my research has been in object relations, NPD (in depth) and HPD (getting pretty in depth there too). So far in the sadism / masochism area, hands down, I like Otto Kernberg the best - very psychoanalytical, and very much seems to make sense. However, his writing style can be very complex and I often have to backtrack into areas where I don't have the full "classical" psychoanalytical background.

If you have references to other materials you found profound I'd very much like them. That whole area is very wild!

I think of a 5 year old girl who has been really "dissed" -- cast out of the play group, put down, humiliated, made to feel deeply inferior and the anger/furry that can generate. You see the real response only where she has tried every other option known to her to "improve" others impressions of her. Over and over she has tried her personal best, yet she still gets her nose really rubbed in the proverbial dirt. Then I look at how the typical five year old girl "takes that out" on others: younger siblings, pets, dolls, friends -- some really mean and nasty stuff! Especially the put downs and really cutting insults. I see that oddly same approach in a full grown NPD/HPD gal when she perceives she is cast out / rejected / really un-loved. Yes, it can get nasty! NPDs and HPDs have that exceptional ability to read any non verbal emotion and climb into the others head with unbelievable ease. So, when then want to "cut" you, they are in the supreme optimal position to do so!

Can't get my head totally around this whole area just yet, but am seeing some possibilities. Perhaps she is unconsciously maneuvering her mate into the same crappy feelings she had when she was dissed by Mom (or Dad)? Sort of surrealistic scene created on the psychic dance floor -- an intentional / compulsive reincarnation of her past -- only this time she is the one with the awesome power . It could be identifying with the aggressor -- I'll torture the other as a way to feel less hurt/damaged by the torture/terror that (way in the past) was done to me. Or, perhaps the Stockholm Syndrome - while terrorizing me they occasionally offered me some special comfort treatment, so I fell in love with them for treating me so lovingly "special" (i.e. for not snuffing me out -- an odd "improvement" for me from the initial doomsday expected scenario. This "improvement" being perceived by me as real loving or pleasure). Now I'm immune / blind to the pain I'm causing the other person. Lots of stuff on "split off" in the object relations area I'm just at the foothills on understanding.

S&M is a fascinating area! Too bad the general public immediately conjures up visions of some domineering but stylishly appointed police women - dressed in an oddly altered "uniform" that now has ultra skimpy boy-shorts, plenty of leg, tall shiny black leather stiletto boots, who's holding hand cuffs or a riding crop. With a look like she's urgent to have sex immediately, and she intends to get exactly what she wants!

It would be interesting to poll the non's and find out any specific sadistic behaviors that might (with a large enough sample) start to fall into patterns tied to HPD Some thought-starters that come to mind:

• bringing up prior mates in an odd way to prove they are strongly sexually desireable or to cut the current mate "down" to a commoner vs. a siren
• flirting with other guys as a way to control the current mate - see how vulnerable you are to my rejection of you? Can you feel that? You only need to slip up just a little and I'll run off with someone else - see how easy it would be for me to do it? Whats that, fear I smell from you? (flirting as a way to control the existing mate...)
• love "horse play" that has a sadistic or painful element to it, perhaps at odd, non "bedroom" times - things like digging nails in, biting on your ear lobe in a painful way, sticking their tong in your ear or your mouth at odd times unrelated to actual foreplay (animal equivalent of the alpha dog asserting domination over the beta dog...)
• kissing you in public deeply but out of context, without much passion, more as a deliberate act of domination....
• purposefully arousing you to a high level of excitement at a time when you have to part and the excitement can't come to full expression/fruition (making you sexually needy for them so you will be sure to come back and attend to them later)
• arranging to get calls on the cell phone when you are out with them ,or checking their chats/email at a time when you are with them which in hindsight seems like they are maneuvering to introduce doubt in you mind that you are on solid ground with them, that the exclusive pair-bond is assured going forward

All the above are sadistic on the receiving end but fighting off horrible feelings on the perpetrator end. I'll bet Non's could come up with many more behaviors that, when looked at in a different light, were indeed sadistically motivated.

Very interesting stuff!