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HPD/AsPD relationships

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HPD/AsPD relationships

Postby Esquire » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:01 pm

In my other thread, someone mentioned that HPDs and AsPDs tend to be drawn to each other in terms of romantic relationships, much in the same way as NPDs and BPDs are attracted to each other. I was just curious about the reasons for this. I've discussed with other Narcs and with Borderlines the reasons that N's and B's are attracted to each other, and it all makes a lot of sense. I was wondering what the reasons are behind the HPD/AsPD couple being so prominent. Also, is it pretty much analogous to the NPD/BPD couple. Like, does the HPD play the role of the NPD, and the AsPD play the role of the BPD?
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Re: HPD/AsPD relationships

Postby exquisitecorpse » Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:07 pm

It begins with attraction. I think most females, not just disordered types are attracted to strong, confident men that are willing to take control. ASPD types have an incredible backbone, and that is supremely sexy to me. I need a partner that is strong enough to put me in my place (when I'm overly emotional and in histrionic meltdown mode), and challenge me (keeping me interested), and challenge my own manipulations (calling me on my game, and forcing me to adapt). We are aware that we play each other.


There is a distinct comfort I feel with an ASPD man, like we've known each other for years. That is probably due to my upbringing and family dynamics growing up. It's a comfortable relationship, there are no masks needed. I don't have to censor my thoughts, don't have to pretend to care like with a normal person. The relationship is very sexual (yay!). There is fondness yet it's not uncomfortably intimate (ewww). I always know my value in an ASPD relationship because it's not based upon love, but what I have to offer. (Sex, appearance, sometimes a meal ticket, companion). I am comfortable with that arrangement.

Both of my ASPD relationships lasted around 3 years each, and one man was honestly my best friend. But, the ASPD nature is that they always want to dominate, and after a while the power struggles become too much. Once was fun, now becomes draining and soul sucking, abusive. In the end, it always becomes abusive because they cannot control me and as a last resort use any means to dominate. Despite all that, I would date another ASPD type, just set strong boundaries, and be willing to walk away at any time.

But malignant narcs....HELL NO. They are awful, awful, awful....
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Re: HPD/AsPD relationships

Postby Esquire » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:25 am

Thanks for the reply, EC. Very interesting analysis. So it seems that the HPD woman is attracted to the AsPD man's ability to be strong, or have a "backbone" as you put it. This is probably analogous to the way the BPD woman is attracted to the NPD man's ability to be cold and shut his emotions off. The reason that the BPD woman finds the NPD man's lack of empathy attractive is that she desires to have that kind of control over her own emotions. So I wonder if the HPD woman secretly wishes that she has the strength of will or perhaps the backbone of the AsPD man.

Also, you say that the lack of real intimacy was attractive to you in your relationships with AsPD men. This seems to be a common theme with all Cluster B's, and I think that's why Cluster B's often find each other for both relationships and friendships, because all feel more comfortable with others who won't expect or desire true intimacy or closeness.
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Re: HPD/AsPD relationships

Postby xdude » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:54 am

exquisite wrote a very insightful post.

Like littlearcher, I also the dynamics differently.

In reality no two people are exactly the same, and nobody purely fits into any label, but from a simplified point of view, I do think there are differences between what the thinking/feeling patterns of someone with BPD vs HPD, that in turn explains the differences in the types of relationships they are attracted to.

From a very simplified point of view, one key difference is that people with BPD fear abandonment, while someone with HPD fears entrapment if that means giving up attention. I'm greatly simplifying how I see it, but it would take too long to write it all out. Still, the idea is someone with BPD primarily pushes away as a preemptive strike out of fear they will be hurt again. Someone with HPD (in a way) has a stronger coping mechanism. They primarily push away because they feel safe and empowered when they are engaged in their coping mechanism of seeking/receiving attention from others.

One theory too is that AsPD types cope with emotional hurt by taking it a step further, and so turn their emotions off as much as they are able to control. You see when you have no feelings, then your feelings can't be hurt.

A person with BPD on the other hand, they are not trying to turn off their feelings; quite the opposite, if anything they value their own feelings to such a degree that they often end up drowning in them.

If you read exquisite's post, it speaks to being comfortable with emotional distance, being valued for what she can tangibly bring to the relationship. Another way to read that is it's a relationship with benefits, but the person with HPD can remain emotionally detached to a degree, or even, already knows on some level it won't last because on some level they don't want their relationships to last. New relationships, new attention, pull at them too.
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Re: HPD/AsPD relationships

Postby orion13213 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:29 pm

In analyzing Little Archer's and Exquisite Corpse's accounts it strkes me that relationships between PD people are co-dependent relationships, and co- dependent relationships require both
(1) a common link between the participants, and
(2) that they each fulfill certain voids or needs that exist in each other.

In BPD/NPD, the common link is that they are both introverts. In HPD/AsPD, the common link is that they are both extroverts (Va Esq: why an HPD woman would probably become bored with an NPD man).

In terms of mutually filling the needs

The BPD gives the NPD confirmation of admiration; the NPD (apparently) confers to the BPD intimacy, reducing BPD fears of abandonment and lonliness.
The HPD gives the AsPD confirmation of power; the AsPD (apparently) confers to the HPD a strong individualistic "maverick" persona to admire, reducing HPD frustrations due to the perception of being an active child or adolescent in an adult world of seemingly endless boring responsibilities.

In each case "confers" refers to a vicarious experience, i.e., by simple association. "Apparently," refers to the fact that both women discovered that NPDs and AsPDs largely reserve intimacy and free-spirited strength, respectively, for themselves first, and sometimes for only themselves.

Sound real?
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Re: HPD/AsPD relationships

Postby Esquire » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:01 am

orion8591 wrote:The BPD gives the NPD confirmation of admiration; the NPD (apparently) confers to the BPD intimacy, reducing BPD fears of abandonment and lonliness.


My only problem with this is that a Non will give the BPD actual intimacy, not just apparent intimacy like the Narc, and so from that perspective, BPDs should be drawn to Nons and hate Narcs. But instead, BPDs seem to push away Nons who try to show them real love and intimacy, and seem drawn to Narcs, with whom they are never truly intimate, and who "can't" love them. That's why I'm wondering if the BPD is actually attracted to the NPD because the NPD reminds the BPD of their parents or whatever figures in their lives caused the BPD to fear abandonment in the first place by withholding love, and by briefly showing affection only to arbitrarily stop caring later.
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Re: HPD/AsPD relationships

Postby minotauros » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:22 am

VirginiaEsquire wrote:Thanks for the reply, EC. Very interesting analysis. So it seems that the HPD woman is attracted to the AsPD man's ability to be strong, or have a "backbone" as you put it. This is probably analogous to the way the BPD woman is attracted to the NPD man's ability to be cold and shut his emotions off. The reason that the BPD woman finds the NPD man's lack of empathy attractive is that she desires to have that kind of control over her own emotions. So I wonder if the HPD woman secretly wishes that she has the strength of will or perhaps the backbone of the AsPD man.

Also, you say that the lack of real intimacy was attractive to you in your relationships with AsPD men. This seems to be a common theme with all Cluster B's, and I think that's why Cluster B's often find each other for both relationships and friendships, because all feel more comfortable with others who won't expect or desire true intimacy or closeness.

I don't find this to be true of BPD/NPD relationships. Actually, this lack of empathy and the coldness of the NPD, alongside the intense emotions of the BPD, are actually what tends to end things, rather than light the candle or sustain it. IMO, its been my desire to be loved and my desire to admire others, and their (the NPDs) desire to be admired. I've since decided to become comfortable with singledom though, because I've come to realize that what I'm attracted to will never really work. I can get my needs met otherwise.

Also, what drew me to them is they make it appear like they want to be their for me. Though they really want to look like superman to gain my admiration. I can't deal with that. I'm done with narcs.

littlearcher wrote: and in terms of intimacy and closeness, i can't claim to speak for all people with bpd but i feel that people with bpd can often truly desire true intimacy and closeness, but also find it terrifying and don't know how to deal with it because past history with closeness is so tied into experiences of pain.

This too for me, I'm terrified of it. It's even gotten worse. I've come to realize this because I've started to have a crush on someone again. And they're triggering the hell out of me because of it. I didn't even realize I was still feeling anything because I've been so numb lately.

VirginiaEsquire wrote:
orion8591 wrote:The BPD gives the NPD confirmation of admiration; the NPD (apparently) confers to the BPD intimacy, reducing BPD fears of abandonment and lonliness.


My only problem with this is that a Non will give the BPD actual intimacy, not just apparent intimacy like the Narc, and so from that perspective, BPDs should be drawn to Nons and hate Narcs. But instead, BPDs seem to push away Nons who try to show them real love and intimacy, and seem drawn to Narcs, with whom they are never truly intimate, and who "can't" love them. That's why I'm wondering if the BPD is actually attracted to the NPD because the NPD reminds the BPD of their parents or whatever figures in their lives caused the BPD to fear abandonment in the first place by withholding love, and by briefly showing affection only to arbitrarily stop caring later.

We often push away nons without realizing it, because of our being so emotional.
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Re: HPD/AsPD relationships

Postby orion13213 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:35 pm

Va Esq wrote
My only problem with this is that a Non will give the BPD actual intimacy, not just apparent intimacy like the Narc, and so from that perspective, BPDs should be drawn to Nons and hate Narcs. But instead, BPDs seem to push away Nons who try to show them real love and intimacy, and seem drawn to Narcs, with whom they are never truly intimate, and who "can't" love them. That's why I'm wondering if the BPD is actually attracted to the NPD because the NPD reminds the BPD of their parents or whatever figures in their lives caused the BPD to fear abandonment in the first place by withholding love, and by briefly showing affection only to arbitrarily stop caring later.


I agree, BPD's will seek logically a relationship with a "Non" (healthy person) who has a lot of empathic validation to offer them.
Possible explanations as to why BPD's /Non relationships fail:
-As Little Archer said, some active BPD's are simultaneously attracted to intimacy, but also afraid of it, so the BPD quickly ends the relationship, leaving the Non bewildered as to why.
-Unhappy with the consequent push-pull or other behaviors (wild emotional dysregulation, blame storms, self-injury, etc.) the Non ends the relationship. As Minotaurus said, many BPD's push healthy people away, without consciously intending to do so.

Possible reasons why a BPD ends up with, or subtly or even consciously chooses an NPD
-The BPD person isn't actually consciously seeking out a relationship with an NPD, they just respond to what seems like lush and genuine empathy as the NPD initially seduces them. In this case the BPD person could be younger and lacking in experience.
-However, sometimes BPD can also have a certain amount of narcissism, and much like Exquisite Corpse said she resonated with AsPD, another common link in the BPD/NPD co-dependent relationship (besides introversion) could be the BPD recognizing "another free-spirit like me," that is, another person with PD traits, including narcissism.
-One parent of the BPD person (particularly the father) might have had narcissistic traits or NPD, and so the BPD woman is resonating with her first blueprints of a man, and her extensive historical schema with such a father. And perhaps even resonating to some degree with the coldness or other psychological abuse, as I think you implied.

Not saying that all BPD's nor all NPD's are like this; these are only some of the possible mechanisms. One obvious thing I have learned here is within the general patterns there is a lot of variation.

And also ignoring, due to my lack of understanding, way more complex PD crosses, i.e., BPD X HPD.

But I think we have drifted some from your original topic...apologies.
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Re: HPD/AsPD relationships

Postby xdude » Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:14 pm

VirginiaEsquire wrote:...
My only problem with this is that a Non will give the BPD actual intimacy, not just apparent intimacy like the Narc, and so from that perspective, BPDs should be drawn to Nons and hate Narcs. But instead, BPDs seem to push away Nons who try to show them real love and intimacy, ...


This is a good observation.

The short definition of cluster B personality types is that these types are characterized by dramatic, overly emotional thinking or behavior. Perhaps people with BPD can relate better in some ways to NPD types, so that's part of the draw there? In the case of a relationship with a NON, I've read no statistics on whose inclined to end the relationship, but having grown up with a BPD mother I understand why the relationships are unstable.

I've been reading a book lately on eusociality. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eusociality

The extremely short version of the book is that eusocial (i.e., highly cooperative) behavior among animals is extremely rare. It's not that cooperative behavior is completely rare, but it's often very limited and/or short lived. Many of us have also read too that monogamy is quite rare, and even then, typically animals are only serial monogamous for a short time while raising their young, which is often also relatively short, then off they go.

I guess a potential point of the book then is that we assume that it's normal for relationships to work out and that there is something wrong with those for whom it doesn't. The other way to look at it is that long term relationships are rare, and that it requires two people who want it, and have the right personality traits to make it happen.

From that point of view, another way to say it is that it requires two people who want the relationship to work. Both need to be trust worthy. Both need to be willing to consistently make choices that benefit the relationship over themselves at times. Both need to be tolerant that relationships are not just going to be easy. Both need to be tolerant that the relationship is not going to be 'perfect'. Etc.

I think for some cluster B types they want that stability, but they want the other person to provide it. Obviously any adult capable of giving that kind of stability to another adult also ultimately wants an adult partner who can do the same. That want might be a hold over from childhood when the relationship was lopsided, and the parent provides the stability (or should) and the child gets to be a child. The imbalance can't work between two adults.
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Re: HPD/AsPD relationships

Postby catch22 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:21 am

@Xdude Actually that is a very interesting point and not a trivial one. Recent (2012) Dutch research shows that by switching on the "social genes" (I keep it brief but it is clear what it means) the result for the group from a Darwinian point of view were staggering: in doing this with bacteria, their colony was bigger than with the "normal, anti-social" bacteria. A similar thing happened with chickens: the social chickens could co-habit without fights, aggression in a similar small area where normal chickens killed and mutilated each other (whether this is a good thing for the chickens remains to be seen but not the point).

In other words: from a Darwinian point of view, as a species, it behooves us to collaborate and partner up. In terms of genetic engineering of babies, etc etc.. opens up a whole new horizon and may refute historic research in this.

BTW: my mom was a severe BPD + other disorders and was married to my dad for over 40 years. She dominated him completely to humuliating levels. It can work but it's totally dysfunctional. What possessed HIM I still do not know, other than that his mom was a severe evil bitch. I almost had the feeling he suffered from some PTSD type of thing + hero complex (as he told himself he had to take care of my mom: that's how she won him to begin with: victim hood) and settled for a repetition of his youth with my mom: total abuse.
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