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Now I have some clear (?) questions (aspd)

Forum for significant others, family and friends of people with mental illness to discuss relevant issues they face.

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This is a support forum for the family, partners and friends of those with mental health issues. This forum is intended to be a safe place to discuss information, give and receive support and learn about all the issues related to being involved with a person with a disorder. Whilst it can be healthy to express various emotions, please remember to be respectful about the disorder itself. This is a place for constructive discussions, not a venting forum.

The issues experienced by the significant others of those with disorders cannot always be discussed in the other parts of the site in a way that does not trigger those with disorders. Moderators may therefore move threads from other forums into this one at their discretion.

Re: Now I have some clear (?) questions (aspd)

Postby xdude » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:26 pm

The selling of organs comment she makes evoked some emotional reactions in us, as it would some others.

On that specific example, for me the other issues include (as examples) -

a.) Was it actually a choice, or forced on them?
b.) Even if a choice, was that choice made due to living in a state of utter poverty?
c.) Is the seller well informed of the risks, or were they being exploited?

Personally I have no issue with someone who chooses to give a kidney to a loved one, or who is an organ donor when they pass away, but some people have issues with those situations as well.

Anyway, the important point is I am fine with just leaving the quandaries above as quandaries, and recognizing that there is a grey area here. Some cases that I find morally reprehensible, and some questionable, but far less so (and areas in the middle of that too).

My problem then with her was that, as julllia noted above, while she can see that others are bothered, she doesn't seem able or willing to understand why. Actually she seems to find it reprehensible that others have emotional reactions that extend to others, and only concerned with thinking of herself as having a superior mind. She writes it off as they are being emotional, and jumps too quickly to the conclusion that she knows best, and decides (for others too), that it's smart to sell organs, and that is that. Done, she knows best.

I think it's my more general problem trying to deal with sociopath/psychopath types, and maybe a kind of extreme narcissism? I have rationalized it, and I am right, I know what is best for others and that is that. Of course that's not the whole story ...

If it was her who was forced to sell her organs (direct force, or circumstances), I'm near 100% sure she'd be sure, it's wrong. But that's the problem with a lack of conscience. People who lack conscience can only relate if it directly affects them. For others? A different set of rules apply.
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Re: Now I have some clear (?) questions (aspd)

Postby xdude » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:39 pm

julllia wrote: for example you can keep saying to them "you hurt me " and they will answer "i know best what is good for you " meaning between the lines "i know best what i want most"


p.s. I think this nails it. It really boils down to 'I want what I want, nothing else matters to me', and the rest is rationalization to avoid feeling guilt, remorse, so they can keep on getting what they want.

In reality we are all most keenly aware of our own wants/needs, and that is normal, but the inability or unwillingness to see (or care) that others have wants/needs too, is selective blindness. Feeling guilt, remorse, even bothering to see, detracts from filling the want of the moment.

This can be helpful though too once you see this clearly. It makes it much easier to deal with the non-empathetic. 'So what, you want something. So do I? Your wants/needs aren't special. They are just yours. Mine matter too. If you won't value my needs/wants, you haven't earned the right for me to value yours'.
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Re: Now I have some clear (?) questions (aspd)

Postby Dahliaa » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:39 am

Thank you for your posts xdude and julllia! You are both very wise and thoughtful people.

Xdude wrote: “She is also very clear that she perceives her own thinking as a strength, not a weakness… That's good to have confirmed, because it is a reminder of why it's pointless to try and change someone who thinks this way. If you are or must have a relationship, about all you can do is be realistic in what to expect.”

This is very true. Actually I believe it is pointless to try to change anyone except oneself. But how do you know what to expect? What is realistic? It is difficult to know.

“My problem then with her was that, as julllia noted above, while she can see that others are bothered, she doesn't seem able or willing to understand why. Actually she seems to find it reprehensible that others have emotional reactions that extend to others, and only concerned with thinking of herself as having a superior mind. She writes it off as they are being emotional, and jumps too quickly to the conclusion that she knows best, and decides (for others too), that it's smart to sell organs, and that is that. Done, she knows best.”

This pattern to behave is something which does make a very negative effect for other people. It is an arrogant behaviour and that kind of behaviour tend to create a distance. When someone does behave like that they will drive others away and end to be alone.

“This can be helpful though too once you see this clearly. It makes it much easier to deal with the non-empathetic. 'So what, you want something. So do I? Your wants/needs aren't special. They are just yours. Mine matter too. If you won't value my needs/wants, you haven't earned the right for me to value yours'.”

In my opinion, it is self-evident all people have to protect their rights and I think most of the people also do it naturally. Why would someone consider other person over themselves? It would be submissive behaviour below normal. I also think all normal parents do teach for their children to stand for themselves. And I don’t understand someone to put themselves above others. It is ridiculous, basically.

For example, I am not a weak submissive person at all. I always take for granted other people to treat me kind and with respect. And I think everyone should demand the same. So, this is not my problem with my friend. My problem is that I don’t know her principles but I am going to find out them.

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Re: Now I have some clear (?) questions (aspd)

Postby xdude » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:28 pm

Good stuff Dahliaa,

Not everyone has the instincts to protect themselves in the face of someone who pushes their own wants, but that may be why you two have managed to maintain a stable friendship. You've held your own without questioning doing so.

As I wrote before, there may be nothing to be afraid of. Some people with extreme narcissism or sociopathic thinking can still maintain friendships. You'd probably already know if she was out to game you. But that written, and related to your second comment...

It's a big world, many new other people, so people with those extremes may not perceive the loss of a friend, lover, etc., as a big loss. It seems you two have maintained a friendship for many years, so maybe she has no other intentions than what you've already seen.
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Re: Now I have some clear (?) questions (aspd)

Postby julllia » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:16 pm

Dahliaa wrote:For example, I am not a weak submissive person at all. I always take for granted other people to treat me kind and with respect. And I think everyone should demand the same. So, this is not my problem with my friend. My problem is that I don’t know her principles but I am going to find out them.

Dahlia


Aren't you afraid if you find something you can't deal with what are you going to do?
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Re: Now I have some clear (?) questions (aspd)

Postby Dahliaa » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:17 am

xdude wrote:It's a big world, many new other people, so people with those extremes may not perceive the loss of a friend, lover, etc., as a big loss. It seems you two have maintained a friendship for many years, so maybe she has no other intentions than what you've already seen.

I now do understand they do not value friendships same as other people because I have read about it. I did not know that before. I think I also know her intentions regarding me, like you said I already have seen them. In general, I am not worry about her intentions I only wonder who is she. I feel I do not know her whole personality which is odd because we have known each other almost ten years. I wonder if I have been friends with a mask.

It is a big world for everybody. I personally like to maintain relationships because I think we are able to get much more about long relationships and I value all my friends. I have many friends who I have known a long time. I need a big reason to cut off friendships but I understand some people think otherwise.

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Re: Now I have some clear (?) questions (aspd)

Postby Dahliaa » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:30 am

julllia wrote:Aren't you afraid if you find something you can't deal with what are you going to do?

I have to deal with it. I have not other alternatives. I do not know what I am going to do. I cannot decide beforehand. Actually I am afraid of only one thing.

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Re: Now I have some clear (?) questions (aspd)

Postby xdude » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:27 pm

It is not great to go through life being jaded, but I do hope for your sake your friend is not a sociopath/psychopath type.

Not sure how to write this, but people with sociopath/psychopath thinking can be very good at reading others. Not all, but some. When the mask comes off (if it does) or the axe falls, months or years later, after all that time building trust, those who are trusting can end up feeling devastated. It's impossible for most to conceive of spending months or years cultivating trust, to exploit it, but sadly it happens.
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Re: Now I have some clear (?) questions (aspd)

Postby Dahliaa » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:23 am

Thank you for your comment. I am trying to interpret you. I do not know for sure what exist "inside" her and that is bothering me. Do you mean it is better for me to remain unaware? Or do you think it is possible to get a complete answer by only reading books? I mean every person is unique.

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Re: Now I have some clear (?) questions (aspd)

Postby xdude » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:58 pm

Hey Dahliaa,

I meant that it's devastating when months, or even years later -

1.) To find yourself in a position where suddenly you are betrayed, or put in a position that screws up your own life (e.g., suddenly find yourself bailing them out of a self-created financial or legal crisis).

and/or

2.) As you observed once, the mask drops and you are treated as cold as ice.
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