Integration question?

If your 'team' consists of non-human or fictive characters (made up, based on other real-life people or from books/tv etc) ...what happens to them after the 'human alters' ...or 'different versions of me' integrate?

For example if a child alter created the fictives then the child alter grows up in order to integrate with the host or to be the new host?..will the inside world where they visited them disappear?

I feel many questions coming from inside but since I haven't been able to see the 'inside world' since our stroke anyway I don't know the answers or where to find them?

Yuna

First, the modern terminology differenciates between "integration" and "fusion": "fusion" is no longer seen as part of the integration process. But in older (before 2015 circa) texts you will find "integration" as meaning "fusion" so it can be a bit confusing.

Second, integration is the complete share of memories and ressources and abilities between all the system members. It is also the healing of the past traumas.

One can be completely integrated and not fused at all, it is called "functionnal multiplicity" or "trauma resolution" depending on who is writing the text. In this situation, everybody keeps their own personal identity, shape, name... Switches can happen too but they are less needed because the host has access to all ressources for everyday life. Switches become more of something that is fun and pleasant, they are no longer "needed for survival".

I am kinda the exception to the rule with the "fusing of all identities" happening at the beginning of the integration process, rather than at the very end of it. I have a lot of non-human parts and my "front me identity" keeps some of their traits such as Uriel's wings, Zami's antlers, Ulysses' tail... while gravitating more and more towards the physical body. It is kinda odd but in the same time it allows me to feel that I am all of them together at the same time (at least at the front, because deep inside we are still separated, like roots from a tree).

Nobody disappears, we just exist differently.

I hope that sharing my experience helps you figure out things for yourself/ves!

ArbreMonde wrote:First, the modern terminology differenciates between "integration" and "fusion": "fusion" is no longer seen as part of the integration process. But in older (before 2015 circa) texts you will find "integration" as meaning "fusion" so it can be a bit confusing.

Second, integration is the complete share of memories and ressources and abilities between all the system members. It is also the healing of the past traumas.

One can be completely integrated and not fused at all, it is called "functionnal multiplicity" or "trauma resolution" depending on who is writing the text. In this situation, everybody keeps their own personal identity, shape, name... Switches can happen too but they are less needed because the host has access to all ressources for everyday life. Switches become more of something that is fun and pleasant, they are no longer "needed for survival".

I am kinda the exception to the rule with the "fusing of all identities" happening at the beginning of the integration process, rather than at the very end of it. I have a lot of non-human parts and my "front me identity" keeps some of their traits such as Uriel's wings, Zami's antlers, Ulysses' tail... while gravitating more and more towards the physical body. It is kinda odd but in the same time it allows me to feel that I am all of them together at the same time (at least at the front, because deep inside we are still separated, like roots from a tree).

Nobody disappears, we just exist differently.

I hope that sharing my experience helps you figure out things for yourself/ves!

Yes it does, thank you. I think some don't want fusion as you explain it but have confused the meaning of fusion and integration as being the same thing.

So if we were able to do a full switch so someone else fronted even just temporarily would I then be able access the inner world and then 'remember it' and be able to see it again when I returned to the front?

Or am I gonna find I can't go that far in and have to wait in the background until the other one leaves the front?

We all want to work better together and help each other after everything we have been through, but are nervous of upsetting the bodies balance and triggering another stroke or something especially with our area's medical services been like it is.

We still have not yet attempted a full complete switch, but after nearly a year of me being the one fully at the front I'm really feeling I'd like a break from being at the helm! Past journals show we (as in Juno and I) could do it before and I could previously see and live in the inner world too.

YunaTheSummoner wrote:So if we were able to do a full switch so someone else fronted even just temporarily would I then be able access the inner world and then 'remember it' and be able to see it again when I returned to the front?

Or am I gonna find I can't go that far in and have to wait in the background until the other one leaves the front?

From my own personal experience and what close friends report, it really depends on the system and can even vary from alter to alter. It can also change and evolve through time. I guess you need to try for yourself and see what happens. Remember that it can still change with time.

ArbreMonde wrote:

YunaTheSummoner wrote:So if we were able to do a full switch so someone else fronted even just temporarily would I then be able access the inner world and then 'remember it' and be able to see it again when I returned to the front?

Or am I gonna find I can't go that far in and have to wait in the background until the other one leaves the front?

From my own personal experience and what close friends report, it really depends on the system and can even vary from alter to alter. It can also change and evolve through time. I guess you need to try for yourself and see what happens. Remember that it can still change with time.

Thank you. we do appreciate your advice and support. This morning I'm being told a plan is being formed but it won't start until after the birthday (last social event for a while) in a couple of weeks.

I'm being told Juno and I must get a month's worth of food and supplies ordered in and some other stuff left for us on a list (including what other food/meds the dog needs too) so there's as little social pressure on Kit & Bobby as possible. Schedule any appointments for either before the birthday or tell people we're away for a month, or set up auto replies that say we have covid and will re-schedule as soon as we are well enough. Family will be going away on holiday too after our birthday so there will be no social meetups with them for at least a month.

We've been given a list of physio exercises to keep doing daily until then. I think the plan maybe for Kit and/or Bobby to front for a month so all they have to cope with is looking after the dog and doing the bodies rehab for a month. (maybe just to kick start us? ... I'm not entirely sure).

I don't know at this point whether I will still be at the front somewhere during that time or whether they will have worked out how me and Juno can get back inside. I can just feel SG telling me to 'have faith'. ..you know the moment of the film..was it Indiana Jones? where it looks like a vast abyss to cross and no bridge then he closes his eyes and steps out and an invisible path is there??? ...then he throws dirt over it so he can see the path across??? ..it kinda feels a lot like that to me at the minute!!! ..cos people inside me who I can't currently see are telling me to have faith and believe they are there and will find a way to lead me down an invisible path to a point where I will be able to see they (and the inner world) are real!!


so either that stroke has sent me totally doolally or we really do have DID!

ArbreMonde wrote:]
One can be completely integrated and not fused at all, it is called "functionnal multiplicity" or "trauma resolution" depending on who is writing the text. In this situation, everybody keeps their own personal identity, shape, name... Switches can happen too but they are less needed because the host has access to all ressources for everyday life. Switches become more of something that is fun and pleasant, they are no longer "needed for survival".

...so just to be clear... how would 'Fusion' be different to 'Functional Multiplicity' for our mindset? ..If someone came out and fusion had occurred would the host go from thinking things like 'That was Thea/Maddie/Kit's part of life, & this part was when I was upfront etc' to 'All these memories are all MY life but I had a different personality when younger' (as in how a grandparent may recount their younger days when they were more mobile, and how different life was, but they don't see their 'younger selves' as another identity completely?)

We're still struggling to imagine the concept! I (Yuna) know what I think now and though I can see some as 'younger versions of me' that is not happening with everyone ..for example...one's that came and took over daily life 'after me' (originally) or one's that represent 'other RL people' or fictional characters are seen as seperate (some see themselves as changelings, spirits or Tulpa).

We have more stability now, we don't need to constantly switch because there is no pressure to go to college or work and cos of the covid situation and our mobility issues as well now we see only immediate family and are expected to do very little. Isolation has cut us off from people who knew us under 'past identities' (ie work colleagues, old school friends etc) plus between the pandemic, the menopause and now a stroke no-one is expecting us to be quite the same personality wise either. It would be the perfect time to attempt a fusion but we feel we need to understand better how that would change our thinking?

Would how we view ourselves depend on which part got the job of 'host' - eg more autistic parts steering us more towards a solitary retirement style of life, but coping better when they 'have' to deal with people, whereas a more social part being the main part, getting us more involved with life. (Not saying that's how all autistic people are but its certainly true of our parts 'Kit' and 'Bobby').

Would I still be able to talk to Juno as my twin? .. get advice from our spirit guide? ..if it was me being the main front ..Would our guardian still be able tell us what to do in the event of another medical emergency or would all the non-humans disappear when all the human 'past selves' fused?

Could we 'un-fuse' if things went wrong? ..and return to 'functional multiplicity'?

I'll try to answer to all of this.

"Fusion" is when different identities fuse and recognize each-other as the same "me". You can have parts fusing together without being completely fused (aka Final Fusion).

Functional multiplicity is when you have at least two different identities, and all the traumas are healed, all the inner ressources are shared.

No fusion is 100% permanent. Stress can make one un-fuse or create new parts/identities. If one wants to keep fully fused, it requires life-long work to keep everything in order inside. Most of it becomes a habit after a while though.

In functional multiplicity, you can talk to the other parts, insiders, alters etc. But you can also have direct access to their thoughts and abilities, without the need to switch or have inner dialogue.

I experience fusion as "being blended all the time". So it kinda creates a "new" collective identity for the fused parts. But in the same time, it's like being all of them at the same time equally.

I don't know if it's specific to me or if it's because I'm fused "only on the front" (meaning, not completely 100% fused) but I still experience "inner messages" and "inner thoughts" as coming from specific parts when I really need to become aware of something. It feels a bit as if I was looking closely at my foot to check if eveything is alright here. Or as if I bumped my little toe in the table, and suddently became aware that yep, little toe exists and hurts bad. It's still me, but it's also "I am super aware this specific part of me exists". As an example, I got some annoying interactions piling up with someone so me-Zami made themself be known annoyingly (headache, pressure in the head etc.) and with pseudo-hallucinations of them stomping their foot on the ground, until I agreeded to "listen" to what they had to say i.e. pay more attention to specific thoughts and emotions.

A friend of mine describes this as being "a main host with passive influence from the other parts and a high level of integration". I call this "being fused at the front, more dissociated in the back". Potato potAto I guess.

I can also "summon" specific, already fused/integrated parts to talk with them if I really need this specific kind of interaction in order to think something through. If I really need to know specifically about how I function inside, I "summon" Theia because she is kind of the "inner secretary / gatekeeper". But it feels like looking closely at my little toe and talking to my own toe, rather than talking to "not-me" like it used to feel.

I also read in various places, including stuff from DID therapists, that it's best to let the system sort the fusions of identities by itself. Focusing on integration (sharing ressources, healing traumas, connecting to the here and now...) and let the fusion-or-not-fusion just happen. Not forcing it one way nor the other.

If you need it, it will happen. If you need to stay as many alters, this will remain so.

My girlfriend's identities are gravitating more and more towards being human and she is also gravitating towards "functional multiplicity". My own identities remain varied in nature (angel, qilin, dryad, fictive characters...) and I just am all of this blended together and gravitating towards final fusion while still being able to talk to my various parts if I need to. It just feels like talking to myself in a mirror or to my own hand rather than talking to someone else. So I guess there is no "one size fits all" rule about this.

Your system does what it needs. If you need to be able to talk to your twin Juno and spirit guides and so on, this mechanism will be kept. Does not matter how integrated you are, if you need to hear them and see them, they'll stay separate enough so you can hear and see them. The conversations might be faster though, more like direct download of thoughts rather than hearing long speeches. The efficiency of communication increases with functional multiplicity compared to having less integration.

I hope I answered all your questions and did not miss any!

ArbreMonde wrote:
In functional multiplicity, you can talk to the other parts, insiders, alters etc. But you can also have direct access to their thoughts and abilities, without the need to switch or have inner dialogue.

I experience fusion as "being blended all the time". So it kinda creates a "new" collective identity for the fused parts. But in the same time, it's like being all of them at the same time equally.

I don't know if it's specific to me or if it's because I'm fused "only on the front" (meaning, not completely 100% fused) but I still experience "inner messages" and "inner thoughts" as coming from specific parts when I really need to become aware of something. It feels a bit as if I was looking closely at my foot to check if eveything is alright here. Or as if I bumped my little toe in the table, and suddently became aware that yep, little toe exists and hurts bad. It's still me, but it's also "I am super aware this specific part of me exists". As an example, I got some annoying interactions piling up with someone so me-Zami made themself be known annoyingly (headache, pressure in the head etc.) and with pseudo-hallucinations of them stomping their foot on the ground, until I agreeded to "listen" to what they had to say i.e. pay more attention to specific thoughts and emotions.

A friend of mine describes this as being "a main host with passive influence from the other parts and a high level of integration". I call this "being fused at the front, more dissociated in the back". Potato potAto I guess.

I can also "summon" specific, already fused/integrated parts to talk with them if I really need this specific kind of interaction in order to think something through. If I really need to know specifically about how I function inside, I "summon" Theia because she is kind of the "inner secretary / gatekeeper". But it feels like looking closely at my little toe and talking to my own toe, rather than talking to "not-me" like it used to feel.

!

Thanks I read it all but these paragraphs I particularly wanted to say something but I don't know how to quote several paragraphs individually!

First the top one...I only have this level of communication with Juno. Everyone else I have received messages 'about' overnight except for when Bobby also temporarily blended with me. Now they are inside working with Kit I can't communicate telepathically with them.

Juno and I don't actually need to physically speak to each other, although we have been doing for some of the day to practise speech therapy usually whilst speaking to the dog too. If he's asleep/resting and we're like typing/watching TV at same time etc we're communicating telepathically. We can even do this while someone else is talking to us (family visits etc!).


I can summon but only the non-human (changelings) for assistance. Human 'past mes' have usually been 'triggered' out by an external event sometimes without the host even realising in the past when we didn't know of DID. Thea never had any knowledge they were DID whilst they were 'out', Maddie only did towards the very end. Kit was the first able to 'come out' when someone else was hosting and 'watch' without the host been aware at all.


it seems Phoenix 'planted' the name Yuna in my memory after the stroke, not to help me remember my name but to remember the relationship between humans and changelings in our system. I never realised this before but apparently every human alter has their own changeling, (though none of the others are twins).

I think I have experienced 'passive influence' through Susie and Bobby coming forwards recently, neither took complete control of the body but once blended were able to let me know what they wanted to do whilst visiting! I've no idea where they are or what they are doing now though as they are not near the front.


Juno and I co-pilot more equally it's more than passive influence between us. We literally function like conjoined twins experiencing everything in real-time simultaneously. I don't know if others can do this with their changelings, I guess I'll find out once we can get back inside and actually 'see' the others and talk to them like I can with Juno.


Anyway thanks very much for answering. I am learning a lot! I just hope I manage to remember it all!

Yuna

YunaTheSummoner wrote:Thanks I read it all but these paragraphs I particularly wanted to say something but I don't know how to quote several paragraphs individually!

Clic on "quote". It copies the whole text between the *quote="ThePerson"* and */quote* thingies. (I replaced the brackets by stars so the "quote" thing can be read as it is, but you need to leave the proper brackets else it will not work.)

Erase everything you do not want to quote - leave spaces between the paragraphes. You will get something like:

*quote="ThePerson"*
blablabla

(erased text)

blablabla

(erased text)

blablabla

(space left)

blablabla

*/quote*

Now, you can copy the first *quote="ThePerson"* and paste it at the begining of each paragraph. Do the same with the */quote* and put it at the end of each paragraph. Clic "preview" and you will get:

blabla

blabla

blabla

blabla

You can now answer between the different pieces. Tadaa !

_____

YunaTheSummoner wrote:First the top one...I only have this level of communication with Juno. Everyone else I have received messages 'about' overnight.

It takes time to build communication between alters. It's okay if you need to use communication through night-dreams, or to use a notebook to write to each-others, and so on.

YunaTheSummoner wrote:we're communicating telepathically. We can even do this while someone else is talking to us (family visits etc!).

This is practical and safer. Good job!

YunaTheSummoner wrote:I can summon but only the non-human (changelings) for assistance. Human 'past mes' have usually been 'triggered' out by an external event.

It takes time. Some systems need to use specific positive triggers. Others can use passive influence. Myself I went towards integration i.e. the connexion of ressources to each and everyone so that anybody can do anything the others can do.

YunaTheSummoner wrote:apparently every human alter has their own changeling, (though none of the others are twins).

This is very interesting! I hope you'll understand one day why your system is like that. Sometimes the reason is not a "big" one, but even a "tiny" reason can be very important. Even if the reason is as "tiny" as "Because it's funnier this way". Fun might seem "tiny" but it's an important thing too!

YunaTheSummoner wrote:I think I have experienced 'passive influence' through Susie and Bobby coming forwards recently, neither took complete control of the body but once blended were able to let me know what they wanted to do whilst visiting!

Passive influence is a bit more subtle than that. It's nice though to know they were able to stay with you and enjoy stuff from the outside and communicate with you.

YunaTheSummoner wrote:We literally function like conjoined twins experiencing everything in real-time simultaneously.

It sounds a bit like a sub-system or a fusion kinda thing. A sub-system probably since you say "Juno and I" as in two identities, instead of "me-Juno and me-Yuna" like the left and right hands of the same person.

YunaTheSummoner wrote:Anyway thanks very much for answering. I am learning a lot! I just hope I manage to remember it all!

My pleasure! I love to explain the stuff that I know!

BTW if other people have other experiences / label things differently / notice I made mistakes, don't hesitate to chime in!

Thank you!...so thats how you do the individual quotes! I'll have to have a go at that later!

I think what's been confusing for me is that from reading Kit's past blogs we had achieved communication through most of the system except for those that had chosen to remain 'dormant' and were regularly switching.

Yet after the stroke it seems we have had to start again. initially I could only seem to hear the thoughts of some (who turned out to be spirit/guardians) I'm assuming they made that possible as I barely knew what was going on at that point!

I remember there was some delay with Juno reaching the front and until she did I couldn't remember very much at all I didn't initially remember i had 'a system!'...but remembered enough real life information like full name, address, who family were, my dog etc, my age etc to satisfy medical staff and be released to recover at home!

A note I found after being home a while led me to the general psych forum site. The bond and level of communication with Juno was instant but it's been much slower progress to reach the others even once I knew about them.

Juno is not a 'version of me', she is a completely separate spirit/soul. I do not switch and one minute I'm Yuna and then I'm Juno. We exist simultaneously together like we are conjoined twins sharing the same body at the same moment in time (thats the only way I can think how to explain it).


Juno believes she's a reincarnation of my mother's spirit and that we were twins in a (real) past life. I believe this also. However I can see that Susie and Bobby are 'younger versions of me' - in fact technically all the human hosts are 'other mes' at different ages I guess!

As for the others changelings, I suspect they are whoever their human host needs them to be in the moment? so the little's changelings will change for them most, often being animals, mythical creatures or characters from tv to actively play with etc whereas the adults one's may stay in the form as one person/friend/past loved one as a companion/advisor to talk things through with? ..so I guess even when we (human hosts) never knew about each other there was always at least two at the front?

I mean you have mentioned Quilin and angels yourself (@arbremonde) so this seems not to be too uncommon in DID? ...or is it connected to being both autistic and DID together?

Do Non-autistic individuals with DID also have alters who are mythical creatures or animals, spirits, angels??? etc ..or maybe they did in childhood but not now (as adults)? ..or do they tend to be all human more often?

Yuna