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Dealing with religious conflict as a system

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Dealing with religious conflict as a system

Postby kittylover » Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:09 am

Trigger warnings-discussion of religion , mention of masturbation
So I’m an agnostic half Jew , and I’ve recently met, Laura, an alter of mine with a very Christian attitude . And not the type that’s actually a good person , the type that would feel the need to inform someone who is about to jerk off that they are sinning (I actually had to point out to her that that isn’t really talked about in the Bible) . I wonder if my own aversion to Christian things is a trauma response , but not sure what trauma it’s a response to .But beneath the annoyingness is fear …. Fear we won’t get to see our little angel baby and other people and cats we’ve lost . Because we aren’t baptized. Because we don’t go to church . Because we jerk off . Anyway any other systems with conflicts around religion ? If so how do you deal with it?
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Re: Dealing with religious conflict as a system

Postby ArbreMonde » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:32 am

In here we started with a very wide differences in religious points of view. We grew up in a christian family, we have been a lot in contact with jewish faith thanks to television documentaries, we had muslim classmates and workmaes we enjoyed listening to in order to better understand their faith. We also read a lot about pagan mythologies and developped beliefs into different pagan divinities.

To the point when we had to just, sit and think. First, what is religion in general and second, what are our core spiritual beliefs.

Our point of view is that religion is a culture-dependant way of interacting with the divine. There are many different religions and spiritualities, they cannot be all right at the same time, and it would make God a very cruel God to have rules such as "if you did not pray in the right words you cannot go to Heaven". Therefore we resolved to: religion is cultural. The religious rules depend on your culture. If YOUR faith tells you to not do the thing, well, do not do the thing, but do not annoy people who do the thing if it is allowed in THEIR faith. (As long as it is not against the law and hurts nobody of course.) Therefore, if you do NOT have any rules against "Ménage à moi" then, enjoy yourself. If you DO have rules against it, or just want to try "No Nut November" as a personal challenge, then, don't do it.

This is where the core spiritual beliefs started being discussed. What are the things we think are moral or immoral, and why? That is, outside of any religious frame. Also, how do we prefer to pray? What spiritual practices do we feel are most important for us? It helped us focus more on what is important for us rather than on what is important for a given culture. It also helped us better respect other people's faiths: even if it is odd or ridiculous to our eyes, it's important for them and we must respect that it's important for them. As long as they do not force it upon us.

This is how we ended up with a home altar with pagan decorations, reminders of other important parts of our faith and spirituality (items associated with meditation to remind us that staying anchored here and now can be a spiritual practice as well as a therapy one), excerpts from different sacred texts that are important to us (such as, the Psalms are very pretty so we have a miniature book with the Psalms, we also have Paolo Cohelo's "The Alchemist", Richard Bach's "Livingston Seagull – A Story", philosophy tales...). It does not matter what shape the wisdom takes, it is important that it is wise. It does not matter if Jesus or Muhamad or Abraham or a seagull said the thing, it is important to read about the thing and practice the thing.

If one of your alters think it is important to follow some rules for herself, she can - as long as she does not impose her faith upon the others. After all, the most important thing Jesus said was "Love thy neighbor", not "spy over thy neighbor and order them around according to your own moral values"...

Hope this helps.
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Re: Dealing with religious conflict as a system

Postby birdsong87 » Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:06 am

we used to have more issues because of religious views in the past. I used to belong to a neo-charismatic community and my co-host is a stoic.
we learned to respect each others convictions and beliefs. they all serve a purpose.
I would recommend looking into more liberal christian views, they do exist. It is what I am doing right now. Questioning the strict rules I followed half of my life.
it is worth looking at their roots. how did she learn that this is a rule she has to follow. who told her she can't go to heaven when the bible really says that our sins don't matter. that everyone sins and will continue sinning to the end and that it is all covered by the sacrifice of Jesus. Someone taught her wrong. And that someone might have had an agenda. what was the agenda?
Is there any other purpose those beliefs serve? maybe as a valid reason to avoid some other tricky topic? I was always kind of glad that I could avoid the idea of sex because I wasn't married anyway.
don't get stuck on the belief itself and try to look behind what is happening there. It will all make more sense that way.
I personally think that 'Unpunishable' by Danny Silk is a very good book that can help a lot in understanding grace and the thing with the rules in christianity. it targets misunderstandings about punishment by God.
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Re: Dealing with religious conflict as a system

Postby Johnny-Jack » Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:18 pm

Wow, I like this thread, from kittylover's post to thoughtful responses by David and birdsong87.

We've had some religious differences in our system and some of us can still be triggered by or avoidant of overly rigid orthodoxy and judgmental religious people. At the extreme is scrupulosity -- which basically means extreme strictness in moral or religious observation.

The Wikipedia article is a useful read, even though some behavior may fall short of the extremes of scrupulosity. I'm still avoidant of a lot of religious discussions but this thread has been worthwhile to me. Thanks!
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Re: Dealing with religious conflict as a system

Postby kittylover » Thu Dec 16, 2021 11:12 pm

I have a question for people who believe in god- if god is so powerful and great why did he let us be abused so horribly? Why is he letting children get abused around the world as we type this? Why did he let hundreds of thousands of people die from COVID? I’m an atheist and I’m trying to understand so I can be nicer to the other alters .-Loki
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Re: Dealing with religious conflict as a system

Postby birdsong87 » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:22 am

The idea is that God gave people free will because he loved them and didn't want them to be puppets. So people can decide to do good or harm and he gives them the freedom to do so.
It is a lousy explanation when you think that God must have intervened...
Christians would put the responsibility for the deed on the doer and not make God responsible for them. They would also say that who knows, maybe he did something. we personally had angel visitations in near-death experiences and maybe others just didn't see their angels but they kept them alive. Some would say that Jesus came to help carry the suffering of the world but it will only end when the world itself ends and we can be sure that he will help us carry our suffering too.
So basically, the christian answers will never answer a straight forward question of why didn't God rescue me? and tackle the topic from their own POV and convictions. if you aim to understand believers in your system it would be necessary to understand the core convictions that make up their world view.
and then chances are those are heavily influenced by rules and restrictions and weird things they picked up on the way, so in any way it would be best to take a closer look if this is even the christian POV or if it is one based in trauma.
Dx: DID cPTSD
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Re: Dealing with religious conflict as a system

Postby ArbreMonde » Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:53 am

Our own point of view on this matter is very tainted by trauma. I also want to make sure you understand that we respect other people's faith, even more when said faith helps them make sense of the world, carries them forwards, comforts them, gives them a reason to be nice people. We find it interesting to hear other people talk about the specificities of their faiths, their spiritual experiences, etc. Please keep all this in mind while reading on and please refrain from reading on if the triggers apply to you. I do not want to hurt your feelings nor your faith especially if your faith is super important for you such as what Birdsong experienced.

TRIGGER WARNING: if you have a deep faith in God/Yhwh/Jehovah/Allah, this will be blasphemy to you. TW also for religious abuse. TW if you experienced SRA.






We grew up in a christian household where religion was used mainly to guilt-trip us. Here are a few examples. We were given a crucifix and told that it was our fault Jesus suffered and died. Each time our clumsines hurt us, it was Jesus punishing us for being a bad person. If bad things happened to us for other reasons, it was God's will and proof that we were a bad person. And so on and so forth.

We also were told a lot about all the other bad and oppressive aspects of human behavior using religion as a false reason to behave badly. Especially regarding the religions of the Book (judaism, christianism and islam). We were given the Bible to read, leafed through it all, and it turns out that outside of the Psalms and the Gospels, it seemed to us that it was full of violence and crime in the name of and by, an angry, manipulative deity.

We discovered other mythologies (old paganisms) where bad behavior was called bad behavior no matter if a human or a deity was doing it - and good behavior was called good behavior in the same way. We discovered old paganisms where deities were queer AF and seen positively because of this. We started drawing a parallel between Prometheus bringing knowledge and fire to the humans, and Lucifer encouraging humans to become more independant, knowledgeable and free-willed (compared to the oppressive Church and angry God).

So we made our choice, mailed an apostasy letter to our baptismal church, and embraced pagan deities of queerness and knowledge and freedom.

The pagan and neo-pagan ways of seeing worship made more sense to us. We were raised in an atmosphere where humans existed in order to worship God and would be punished if they did not worship properly enough. Paganism offered us a point of view where deities would be seen more like friends or business partners. Gifts/worship are exchanged because the relationship is friendly, there is no bad feeling when there is no worship/gift -and when something is really needed, additional gifts/worship are given in order to recieve the needed thing, just like in a business partnership. This is very different from the "you must pray and never expect anything in return because the more selfless you are in life, the more you will be rewarded in your death" we grew up with.

Our needs are right here and now. We refuse to be a sacrificed and tortured lamb all our life in order to maybe earn something in an afterlife that might not even exist. We prefer to befriend pagan deities as well as our Lucifer/Prometheus synchretism, including afterlife/psychopomp ones because hey, better safe than sorry, because we cannot spend all our life submitting to christian abuse, no matter what we will earn in the afterlife.










END WARNING

All in all, we might have managed to reach some sort of peace of mind towards people who do have faith in the God we hate, we are far from being ourselves at peace with said God. But we do our best to keep this between Him and us, rather than making it about each and every person who does worship Him. No human can be 100% bad or 100% good, we try to apply the same logic about deities which helps us accept that some people can find comfort and help from the deity that meant so much hurt for us.

I sincerely hope I did not hurt anybody's feelings with my answer.
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