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More validation of trauma *TW*

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More validation of trauma *TW*

Postby Zor » Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:38 pm

So the other day was my mother's birthday and I called to talk to her. During our conversation she mentioned talking with an aunt about some stuff in my childhood- specifically asked if I remembered when I broke my ankle at about 12 years old (I do - double riding on a bike and getting it caught in the wheel spokes so it pulled the foot between the wheel and the bike frame, jerking the bike to a halt)...

Then she asked if I remembered the x-rays. The doctor did two or three of the broken ankle, but also confusingly one of the GOOD foot, too- and I never really knew why. I remembered them doing that, but also being in so much pain, then later on paid meds, that it never really was a concern to me- and I was 12. I didn't CARE at the moment why... what Mom was getting at though was what the doctors told her and WHY they did the other foot and looked twice at the broken one.

They said there was evidence I'd broken BOTH of my feet before- asking Mom if that had happened when I was really little, toddler aged. Then she told me that it made her feel terrible b/c she remembered a time when, as a toddler, they had trouble getting me to walk. I cried about my feet hurting a lot. They even tried rigid taller shoes to support the ankles and feet better, thinking it was a support thing.

When she told me this, I was surprised... but it also struck a chord. I'd HEARD THIS before- something like it. So I spent 45 mins in our journal notebooks. Over the last year and a half, among the comments of the man-monster hurting us, sexually and emotionally terrorizing us, was comments about fear and memory of "him hurting my feet", or statements like "Why the hell didn't I say something? Right, cuz crying got my feet crushed", etc. All from Angel who suffered that abuse for us... He'd been making comments about it, along with revelations of being terrorized, grabbed, smothered so he couldn't scream, and being sexually touched- as a freaking TODDLER by that monster...

Mom's comments, entirely unaware of our journal writings and that this has been in there- I counted NINE references over the last 18 months- validated what Angel had been telling us. Just like her revelation, many many months (about a year actually) after Angel began telling us about the nightmares of the man leaning over and smothering/touching him, that the uncle that lived with us for about 6 months was a pervert... that he had a history of molesting people, kids... and that it was part of why my aunt divorced him.

On one hand, it's nice to have this validation, again, about him... and what he did. But on the other hand- it's #######5. It sucks. It provides the closest thing we'll ever get to undeniable tangible proof of the abuse. I HATE THAT! I hate that it happened, what it did to us... and I hate that we can't deny it, forget it, and pretend it never existed.
More than that- I hate that my parents were so... negligent... careless... oblivious. It was their job to protect me. I was a toddler... We were lashing out at times- too timid and shy, throwing poop at the walls, crying out feet hurt when they tried to make us walk... Why didn't they ever just look into it? Go to a doctor about our feet?

This is just overwhelming sometimes... and little pieces of things trickling out to validate the system's memories, nightmares, and comments about this abuse, this trauma.
Last edited by NewSunRising on Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added trigger warning for descriptions of abuse
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Re: More validation of trauma

Postby MakersDozn » Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:17 pm

We're sorry, Zor. It's good that you found the validation, but we're sorry that you went through this.

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Multiple self-dxed 1996. Body 58f. System of 47: 42 ♀, 5 ♂; 17 littles (7+under), 9 middles (8-11), 14 teens (12-17+), 5 bigs (18+up), + a formless yin/yang. Oldest member is 25.

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Re: More validation of trauma

Postby spinningtops » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:46 am

yeah sorry, that is a hard thing to have to take in. your parents should have been more aware and looking into what was going on.
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Re: More validation of trauma

Postby Zor » Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:49 pm

spinningtops wrote:yeah sorry, that is a hard thing to have to take in. your parents should have been more aware and looking into what was going on.


Yeah, I agree... and I am very disappointed... honestly, I find it hard not to be a bit angry.

They were supposed to be watching out for me, taking care of me, protecting me. How the hell did they NOT see the signs of what that monster, whom at least Mom KNEW was a monster, was doing?! How could they let him in house? How could they leave him alone with us?! IDK... It's frustrating, hurtful, and almost angering... IDK... It's a mix of things, I guess.

So yeah... she's validated, in the same unexpected sort of way, that this same monster likely touched us sexually, that we absolutely lashed out in a gross way when he was around, until he was gone... and that he likely hurt my feet, our feet... b/c at that point, it was "us" not "me".

This friggen sucks. I hate this... learning all this... knowing this stuff. Does that ever get easier or better?!
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Re: More validation of trauma

Postby SystemFlo » Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:05 pm

Zor wrote:Yeah, I agree... and I am very disappointed... honestly, I find it hard not to be a bit angry.


A bit? You have all reasons to get as furious as anyone can get, but you're writing about it like you should resist getting angry. Why do you think you'd had to resist that?

2 Ts had told us that at some point we do need to get angry to parents to get it out of the system. Dad, he can not deal at all with anything negative, but either totally denies it exists or gets angry, if can't escape like that. Even things like look at this thing here, in my hand. "No, it can not be like that." He's not gas lighting intentionally with that behavior, for his system it's choosing between can you just make it go away, or do you need a protector to force it go away. Which means if he gets cornered and you don't take No, he will get angry. But that is so obvious trauma behavior and I can see the little boy inside who's so scared and have no clue how to handle world, which is why he can not take care of himself. And if one can't take care of himself, how could he ever take care of a problem like an adult?

Our mom, well, she should be more adult emotionally and more intelligent to tell when manipulated by dad, even if it happens without intent to manipulate, but she's not. And we understand it's not a thing she can change by herself. It's so obvious trauma as well, and you can't just make someone more adult than they are by forcing them. We know, we tried for so many years. She's not choosing to be helpless, she is. And living with person like my dad with no ability to force him to accept there are realities, she was just under his control.

We can see that and understand it. From a human point of view.

There's also personal point of view. They failed us.

We told our mom there will probably come a time when we need to stop being in contact with her, to deal with OUR trauma, not always understand THEIRS. She understood it, she's never denied she failed, she's said she's sorry for thousand times, but I've told her not to. Why? Because you say sorry when you understand you did wrong and will change, but she can't change. She's saying that to be forgiven, and that sorry is for her to deal with her guilt, not to us to get validation. Actually by sorry she's asking validation for her guilt and that is our the problem from the beginning: it's still not about US, it's still just about HER. Like always. Then she's sorry about that, because she truly can not understand.

We don't hate them, we understand, their story is sad. Two wasted lives. But we need to grow up ourselves to be able to be in contact with people who have no concept of any boundary. And we set her a boundary, with dad we only are in contact thru her anyway, never alone, never just us and dad. She didn't respect the boundary although she understood it and accept it herself totaly when explained this is how things are now, the next day she crossed it. And now she's angry and sad, because Sami has stolen her daughter. We know he did not. He's the "daughter", he's the one who defended her. Now he defends me, and she just doesn't know she's not missing me but him.

It's been 1,5 years I think without contact. And it gets easier to be angry, when they aren't there for us to see and feel sorry for.

I didn't tell this to talk about us, I told it to tell about how it has not been easy for us either. I mean, we're not teenagers in outside time, it took years and years to grow enough to see all that. It helped us to cut ties. Sometimes someone is missing mom a lot, like a child and cries. She sent us a birthday card last year, and had put it full of stickers and we cried because we miss having a mom. Because we picture her there putting stickers to send them to us, like she cares. But then we realize we are missing what we never had, not what we would have with her if we go back to her.

We don't know how your parents are like as people, all people are more than their crimes. We only know the crime, they let a sex offender to be freely with their kid. There's no question if we are angry at them just based to that, and would never let them be alone with a child, because they have no ability to make safe decisions. It's more complicated to you, cause you know them as people and all good things. Good things don't take away what they did to you, just chose to not care enough if you'll be molested or not. It gets time to sink they really didn't care, because it hurts. You'd be happier with thinking their good sides. But it's not the reality. And I think at some point you do need to get angry, as angry as you can get.

We've realized, that it does more harm than good to try to sort things out with people who were part of your trauma. You will never get full validation from there, if they'd be able to, it wouldn't have happened. They failed you and fighting with them or trying to explain to them doesn't change it, it hurts you further. It's something you need to understand by yourself and feel yourself and then, afterwards, decide whether you want them to your life or not, knowing it can never be changed. It kind of means you start a relationship all the way from beginning, but this time as a different person yourself.

Don't stop yourself from feeling. I'm sorry what was done to you all, and that there was nobody to care enough and how it hurts to realize it. But you survived then, and you'll survive from getting angry and fully realizing their part now, or when you're ready to that, as well. Just let it out. Maybe let them know beforehand like we did, if it makes it easier. If they wanna explain their side of the story, it's about them dealing with their guilt, just like it is if they try to tell you they didn't do anything wrong. You are totally allowed to make it all about you, not them, to heal.

You own more to Angel that to your parents.

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Re: More validation of trauma

Postby MakersDozn » Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:47 pm

Thanks for your post, SystemFlo folks.

SystemFlo wrote:2 Ts had told us that at some point we do need to get angry to parents to get it out of the system.

[...]

I can see the little boy inside who's so scared and have no clue how to handle world, which is why he can not take care of himself. And if one can't take care of himself, how could he ever take care of a problem like an adult?

We strongly agree with both of these points. So much pain comes from suppressing feelings. We had to suppress to survive, but we're not in danger any more. We have to process the feelings or they will eat away at us.

And yes, having been traumatized as a helpless child makes it very difficult to function as a healthy adult. And very difficult to nurture traumatized parts that remained children. Being an adult part does not mean we are healed.

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Multiple self-dxed 1996. Body 58f. System of 47: 42 ♀, 5 ♂; 17 littles (7+under), 9 middles (8-11), 14 teens (12-17+), 5 bigs (18+up), + a formless yin/yang. Oldest member is 25.

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Re: More validation of trauma

Postby SystemFlo » Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:51 pm

MakersDozn wrote:We strongly agree with both of these points. So much pain comes from suppressing feelings. We had to suppress to survive, but we're not in danger any more. We have to process the feelings or they will eat away at us.

And yes, having been traumatized as a helpless child makes it very difficult to function as a healthy adult. And very difficult to nurture traumatized parts that remained children. Being an adult part does not mean we are healed.

MDs


Thaks, MDs. It's true, and adult parts maybe aren't even just not healed, but not fully developed. Or is that a same thing, do you develop when you heal? We don't have proper adult in the system in that sense, there's no ANP adults. (Can be in inner world, but they may be also highly developed "NPCs" and not actual parts. I don't know how to tell the difference for sure.) I remember you telling you having not fully adult adults too. There are so many areas in "being an adult". For example I'm not sexually adult although am in age, I stopped developing in that area I think when was 14 or so and in some other areas way earlier. But in some areas I did developed to an adult level, that's why I'm an adult as a part. I'm just not full one, or ANP but a mixture.

That may be the difference between high functioning and lower functioning systems too, some have actually adult adults, some do not. Of course there can be also other reasons for that, but it can be one.

For Zor and others about what I wrote about my mom saying sorry in the earlier message: I realized I've maybe never explained two (and possibly many more) ways of being sorry, it's a thing we've discovered. I don't think it's from any textbook, we realized it by ourselves. I can understand it doesn't necessarily open up that easily what I mean with it, why it can be "wrong" to ask for forgiveness. I don't start to explain it in here now, because it's not the topic of the thread at all. I just realized it sounds harsh without explaining it properly.

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Flor F adult co-host
Sami M 15-26 (age slider) system manager, defender
(Lucas M 17 caretaker)
etc.

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- random M 14
- Jules M 14
- Leon M 4
- etc.
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Re: More validation of trauma

Postby MakersDozn » Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:39 am

Thanks, Flor. There are several parts to your post that resonate with us, but it's evening after a poor night's sleep and we've run out of steam for today. We've saved a draft of the response that we're preparing to post soon. Come to think of it, it deviates from the original topic of Zor's post, so we think that we'll start a new thread.

MDs
Multiple self-dxed 1996. Body 58f. System of 47: 42 ♀, 5 ♂; 17 littles (7+under), 9 middles (8-11), 14 teens (12-17+), 5 bigs (18+up), + a formless yin/yang. Oldest member is 25.

Notable: Charity 25, Deborah 23, Drew 23f, Mary 23, Rachel 23, Laura 17.5, Allegra 17, Cass 17, shawn 16f.
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Re: More validation of trauma

Postby Zor » Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:29 pm

SystemFlo wrote:A bit? You have all reasons to get as furious as anyone can get, but you're writing about it like you should resist getting angry. Why do you think you'd had to resist that?


A bit, yeah. It's still a shock, and a bit of a struggle to see past what I didn't know about- meaning until a few years ago, we were still blissfully ignorant of being a system despite our peculiarly close connection and relationship online to each other. Until that time I had NO IDEA that the bad stuff Angel talked about suffering was ANYTHING close to what I'd/We'd been through. It was someone else, their life... so to a degree, it is still hard to look past the others GOOD memories of childhood that I have and accept that bad stuff happened... really bad stuff even.

Also, anger isn't a very strong emotion for me- many of them aren't truthfully... I think that probably makes sense, having a sort of emotional blunting or less emotional expression/presence... So while I am hurt, VERY hurt, and even angry -it's not a rage... despite that that would be entirely understandable and justified. God is it ever justified...

IDK I am "resisting" the anger, but it's just not a natural inclination for me. Angel, on the other hand, is furious. He's always had anger towards those that hurt him, that facilitated it. Pixie, too, for the instance she was sexually hurt trying to protect us (with the foster kid a decade after the uncle that was mentioned hurting us above in the OP).

SystemFlo wrote:2 Ts had told us that at some point we do need to get angry to parents to get it out of the system. Dad, he can not deal at all with anything negative, but either totally denies it exists or gets angry, if can't escape like that. Even things like look at this thing here, in my hand. "No, it can not be like that." He's not gas lighting intentionally with that behavior, for his system it's choosing between can you just make it go away, or do you need a protector to force it go away. Which means if he gets cornered and you don't take No, he will get angry. But that is so obvious trauma behavior and I can see the little boy inside who's so scared and have no clue how to handle world, which is why he can not take care of himself. And if one can't take care of himself, how could he ever take care of a problem like an adult?


I don't disagree with those T's at all. The more I write about it, the more I'm coming to realize just how... IDK I can say lazy, and it's certainly not uncaring... but willfully ignorant or dismissive of the dangers, particularly with the uncle, they were... that ticks me off.
As you said, it's their job as parents to protect their children. They utterly FAILED to do that with me, and likely my brother. Hell, they didn't even just fail, they INVITED THE DISASTER by allowing a KNOWN pedophile and abuser into our home... and ALLOWED HIM to be alone with me as a toddler. What the hell did they think would happen?! That b/c he was married to my aunt (Mom's sister) and they had kids that it magically just stopped?!
I get it, too, Mom hadn't told Dad about that by this point... she was only a few years removed from that uncle (then the boyfriend) doing that to her and the younger sisters... she was a few years removed from her home life with an abusive family... She was scared, ashamed, and likely scared telling Dad would push him away- that is all reasonable and understandable... it's even explaining WHY she never said anything... but it DOES NOT mitigate the monumental screw up it was to let that monster in and to have access to us like she did... like they did.



SystemFlo wrote:We can see that and understand it. From a human point of view.

There's also personal point of view. They failed us.

Kind of what I was saying just now with my mom (and dad, too)... I get WHY it happened and the shame part... at least if that's WHY she didn't say anything before the monster was there. BUT that does not change- they failed us. There's NO two ways around it. Parents are supposed to protect kids, not bring dangers into the home and leave them with the kids. THAT was inviting disaster, which they then totally missed and didn't stop.
There were signs for us... throwing poop at the walls, lashing out... crying about the pain in the feet that NEVER happened before that, and that wasn't nearly so bad after that... These were red flags they missed, dismissed, ignored... whatever. I don't know their thought process at that time. I do know when, a decade later, I broke my ankle and she was asked if/when my feet had been broken she said she felt like an awful parent b/c she said they didn't realize WHY I had been crying about my feet hurting as a toddler. :/ So I guess they just missed the warning signs, misread the signals?!
Even if not intentional, they failed us... BIG time.

SystemFlo wrote:We told our mom there will probably come a time when we need to stop being in contact with her, to deal with OUR trauma, not always understand THEIRS. She understood it, she's never denied she failed, she's said she's sorry for thousand times, but I've told her not to. Why? Because you say sorry when you understand you did wrong and will change, but she can't change. She's saying that to be forgiven, and that sorry is for her to deal with her guilt, not to us to get validation. Actually by sorry she's asking validation for her guilt and that is our the problem from the beginning: it's still not about US, it's still just about HER. Like always. Then she's sorry about that, because she truly can not understand.

We have had time, mostly before I knew we were a system, where we had to cut my parents off for a time... twice I can think of that went beyond a month- once for close to 6 months. There's been times they've been emotionally difficult and outright hostile over things. She had picked a fight with Kaleb & Kitten, a few weeks later with Pixie... and got mad b/c I, who stayed out of it entirely, didn't "back her" (she was ENTIRELY in the wrong, too), and then furious when I didn't take her side (I didn't take any side) or apologize for "offending her". That led to her attacking ME... and all of that I considered emotionally abusive, controlling, etc. We didn't talk for 6 months. At all. There's been times I've had to do that with her particularly- but given my Dad's "You owe your mother" kind of attitude that SHE is always right, etc... him, too.

So when it comes to this trauma stuff. She DOESN'T understand. Dad's way of "handling it" is to deny it could have ever been possible. But then, he does that about the emotional abuse HE suffered growing up, and the emotional, physical, and sexual abuse Mom suffered, too. He likes to pretend it didn't exist. That it couldn't have.
When it comes to the uncle hurting us, their fighting, the foster sister hurting us... Yeah, he flat out denies it is even possible. Chooses to ignore the signs. I think a lot of that is subconscious guilt AND that he never truly resolved his OWN issues- so he can't understand or accept that it happened to his own kids. Mom did go through counseling for a while, but mostly for anorexia, the symptom not the trauma processing - and almost never with a clinical doctor... not the help she REALLY needed.
So, like your mom- I don't think mine can understand either. I don't think either of my parents can b/c they can't accept that what happened happened, not without massive guilt for realizing they LET IT happen- even if not willingly and knowingly. But the fact is THEY let the uncle in the home. THEY brought the foster kids in. THEY fought and HE drank... THEY were why we moved (dad was military) and that instability it caused... Even if none of this was intended to hurt us... it did. They'd have to accept that. I doubt they ever will.


SystemFlo wrote:We don't know how your parents are like as people, all people are more than their crimes. We only know the crime, they let a sex offender to be freely with their kid. There's no question if we are angry at them just based to that, and would never let them be alone with a child, because they have no ability to make safe decisions. It's more complicated to you, cause you know them as people and all good things. Good things don't take away what they did to you, just chose to not care enough if you'll be molested or not. It gets time to sink they really didn't care, because it hurts. You'd be happier with thinking their good sides. But it's not the reality. And I think at some point you do need to get angry, as angry as you can get.

Honestly, IDK _I_ know how my parents are as people anymore. The last few years shattered my sense of self, but it also ruined the image I had of my parents. That picking fights with some of us (then just seen as really close friends) and blaming me for it changed a lot of that, too. Their unwillingness to have little more than email/phone call contact b/c they didn't like that I married and stayed where I am now rather than moving where THEY moved... that hurt and caused a shift in my thinking of them.
Of course learning about these traumas and learning how we suffered, sometimes at their hands, has caused me to REALLY question things... and knowing they don't know b/c they refuse to see it... IDK I know who they are. Not really.
Getting angry is hard, b/c it's so confusing, and b/c I being apart from the trauma and unaware of it so long, developed almost dependent level attachments to them... talk about a sick irony, eh? A strong bond there that probably wouldn't have if I'd known all along... but it did... It is hard to be angry, but the more it sinks in, the less difficult that is. Maybe that's why, aside from here and our journal I don't talk about it a lot. I try NOT to think about it too much. It sucks. It hurts. It IS angering.
I am working on accepting it, processing it... I hope that this gets Angel and I closer, so we can work on getting more aware of each other, more present together, and so we can both work these things out. Angel is, as I said before, VERY angry about what he suffered. He surprised the doc one week in the office... "You seem a bit upset about that." Doc said, noting the angry tone. "Why the f--k shouldn't I be?!" Angel snapped. "They ######6 hurt me- bad!"
It surprised doc b/c of the emotional response, something NOT common from me- he wasn't expecting such a raw response. Go figure- that's DID in a nutshell, right?!


SystemFlo wrote:We've realized, that it does more harm than good to try to sort things out with people who were part of your trauma. You will never get full validation from there, if they'd be able to, it wouldn't have happened. They failed you and fighting with them or trying to explain to them doesn't change it, it hurts you further. It's something you need to understand by yourself and feel yourself and then, afterwards, decide whether you want them to your life or not, knowing it can never be changed. It kind of means you start a relationship all the way from beginning, but this time as a different person yourself.

Don't stop yourself from feeling. I'm sorry what was done to you all, and that there was nobody to care enough and how it hurts to realize it. But you survived then, and you'll survive from getting angry and fully realizing their part now, or when you're ready to that, as well. Just let it out. Maybe let them know beforehand like we did, if it makes it easier. If they wanna explain their side of the story, it's about them dealing with their guilt, just like it is if they try to tell you they didn't do anything wrong. You are totally allowed to make it all about you, not them, to heal.

You own more to Angel that to your parents.

Us


You're right, I DO owe more to Angel- A TON. To all of our system. We need to stand and fight for each other, and we're working on that. That is why I am working so much to make sense of this, to accept this happened to us, to come to terms with the hurt, the anger, the shock that our parents totally failed us... and did so, at least in part, by choice. They CHOSE to bring the molester into the house, they CHOSE to drink (dad) and cause those fights, they CHOSE to move us (b/c of Dad's job), they CHOSE to put such extreme pressure for "excellence" and "perfection" on us, they CHOSE to bring those foster kids in and caused one to harm us again, they CHOSE to basically be separated a year (Dad) and to starve nearly to death instead of comforting us (mom)... THEIR actions caused all our traumas. Nothing WE did initiated or caused it. We just endured and survived it best we could- and only b/c of ALL of us being present could we...
So yeah, I don't owe my parents a damn thing! I owe the rest of our system EVERYTHING.

I guess I have a bit more anger than I realized. I'm almost in tears and was hitting my keys a little too hard typing that closing...
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Re: More validation of trauma

Postby Zor » Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:57 pm

SystemFlo wrote:For Zor and others about what I wrote about my mom saying sorry in the earlier message: I realized I've maybe never explained two (and possibly many more) ways of being sorry, it's a thing we've discovered. I don't think it's from any textbook, we realized it by ourselves. I can understand it doesn't necessarily open up that easily what I mean with it, why it can be "wrong" to ask for forgiveness. I don't start to explain it in here now, because it's not the topic of the thread at all. I just realized it sounds harsh without explaining it properly.

Flor


No apology necessary. We didn't take anything you said as unduly harsh. It was fine. :)
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