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Can you have DID and MD?

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Can you have DID and MD?

Postby spinningtops » Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:56 am

Are they comorbid? I see both in myself. Sometimes it's daydreams and other times alters that are coming up, and it's sort of weird to have multiple issues like this, cause like I don't know where to go to talk about it. Ideally I'd have a therapist and they'd just tell me, but I unfortunately don't.

the daydreams also feel disassociative, like I sometimes am not consciously controlling it, that it just starts playing out while i am partially in a disassociative state. So it's kind of weird. I feel if I tried to stop it when it's happening, I feel I wouldn't be able to. Like maybe a waking dream? idk.
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Re: Can you have DID and MD?

Postby Johnny-Jack » Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:07 pm

If by MD you mean maladaptive daydreaming, it's important to point out that this isn't an official or widely accepted disorder. Probably best to stick to disorders listed in the major diagnostic manuals. That said, even the fellow who hypothesizes this disorder claims it's dissociative. So since you note that your symptoms feel dissociative, it's probably wise to consider the five dissociative disorders, the most common, at least based on activity on PsychForums, is dissociative identity disorder.
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Re: Can you have DID and MD?

Postby TheGangsAllHere » Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:53 pm

Johnny-Jack wrote:If by MD you mean maladaptive daydreaming, it's important to point out that this isn't an official or widely accepted disorder. Probably best to stick to disorders listed in the major diagnostic manuals. That said, even the fellow who hypothesizes this disorder claims it's dissociative.


Thank you for saying this, Johnny-Jack. I always feel annoyed when I see the term. It sounds pejorative to me, like the person who has it is being blamed and should just "stop that" because it's "maladaptive." If it's a dissociative phenomenon, then it is adaptive and was adapted to cope with whatever trauma was going on that made the real world unbearable.

But to me it just sounds like the process by which some people with DID spend a lot of time in their inner world, and the person who hypothesized it is just separating it out, calling it something different, and using this "new disorder" to make a name for themselves and publish papers.

Some people with DID do have very detailed inner worlds, and alters with complex backstories, but like with any system, that's due to a combination of what they needed and their predisposition to dissociate.
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Re: Can you have DID and MD?

Postby MakersDozn » Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:40 am

We agree with the Gang's opinion on how "maladaptive" daydreaming has been labeled, for the reasons that they stated.

This said, I'd like to share my own experience of this condition. Many who know us here and on other online communities are familiar with our system, which we've been aware of for nearly 25 years. My history of MD (pun not intended) is completely separate from our system history, and is mine alone.

I started this behavior when the body was about 17. Allegra and I (unknown to each other) had been doing a great deal of creative writing, mostly short stories, since the body was seven. We're very grateful to our second-grade teacher, who encouraged us.

When the body was a teenager, I wrote volumes of mournful existential poetry. To this day I still get mired in an existential swamp if I'm not careful. But in adolescence, the poetry writing and the short-story writing were my only means of escape.

The short stories were usually serial in that they involved the same characters in different settings going through different plots. Many more stories, serial and otherwise, remained in my head and never made it to paper, or were never completed. One serial became so addictive that I escaped into it completely, turning it into a multi-generational saga that spanned four generations.

I would escape into the saga's world regularly until a few years after we started becoming aware of our system. When it became clear that our system was becoming too large for me to manage, I went completely inside (in our system innerworld, not the saga) and remained there for about 20 years, until others started complaining loudly and continually to our T that I needed to return in some capacity.

So....I agree that "maladaptive" daydreaming is really "adaptive." But only until it isn't.

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Re: Can you have DID and MD?

Postby spinningtops » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:04 am

ok, yeah i had heard that it was not officially a term yet. I was watching a video which said they just don't have enough documented cases. So the reason I was thinking of this is that some of my things that seem to happen is this daydream stuff and i have not wanted to post here about it, cause i thought people would think that's not really Did and thus this person doesn't have it. But I also definitely feel alters as well. So anyways, yes daydreams are something that also happen to me, where I don't daydream as frequently as the MD terms say per se, but it's really important to me. So when I go to sleep in the real world, sometimes I feel the real world feels like it lacks something so I go into a daydream world to sort of have that thing. Connections or whatever, it all just feels better in the daydream. Though sometimes I feel it's been enough in real life too.
Anyways, it's just I didn't know if this was a part of Did and thus I should talk about it or if it would create some confusion.
So anyways, thank you.
Yes I agree the word Mal-adaptive does sound like an unfortunate name. Adaptive is better.
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Re: Can you have DID and MD?

Postby SystemFlo » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:24 pm

It was first found by trauma-Ts in dissociating patients and thought to be dissociative phenomenon because of that history, but when looked at closer, it's not more common in people with DDs than other people. Rather it seems to be genuinely neurological, and closer to ADD and ADHD than dissociation disorders. That's what I've learned about it. There are people who study it, and the reason why it was linked with DDs originally is just because traumaTs found it first. Closer look with larger population showed there's also other people with it, with no signs of trauma.

It's not official dx, but I understood that if it some day is gonna be, it's gonna be labeled neurological condition, not a trauma based thing at all.

I think I've both. I daydream about the inner life of other parts, but they still truly are structurally dissociated parts. It's just a twist, to make sure I don't assume anything I think I know, because it can be my story and not something they really identify with. They don't seem to mind me doing that, dreaming about them, tho. You know, as long as I'm busy with my own head, I'm not doing anything risky which is anything in real world, which is whole point of their existence anyway, to keep us safe. But by doing that, I only live imagined lives of theirs, not my own.

The big question is how much years is one willing to sacrifice for things that don't exist, when it means your real life is slipping through your fingers without you living it. But to get that, you'd need to stop escaping into stories, and it's not a thing to just give away. It's the way I think. And how to do that, how to know when it's just me and a story and when it's one of them truly needing to be heard?

There's some videos about people who've been maladaptive daydreamers and cured. I've never watched them, because it's too triggering. If there is no proof that you feel is solid enough for you to believe your OSDD/DID is legitimate, it can be confusing. I do things maladaptive daydreamers do. Our body can do things in here based on stuff that happens in inner world or in fantasy, because mind is there more but still in control of the body in here. I'm very attached to all of the others, just like daydreamers are, they love their characters way more than themselves.

I was gonna say something more, but took it away. I think it was not my thought, it's just because Fourteen is close that I think like he does. I'll add it later if it was me and not him leaking.

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Re: Can you have DID and MD?

Postby Zor » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:23 pm

TheGangsAllHere wrote:
Johnny-Jack wrote:If by MD you mean maladaptive daydreaming, it's important to point out that this isn't an official or widely accepted disorder. Probably best to stick to disorders listed in the major diagnostic manuals. That said, even the fellow who hypothesizes this disorder claims it's dissociative.


Thank you for saying this, Johnny-Jack. I always feel annoyed when I see the term. It sounds pejorative to me, like the person who has it is being blamed and should just "stop that" because it's "maladaptive." If it's a dissociative phenomenon, then it is adaptive and was adapted to cope with whatever trauma was going on that made the real world unbearable.

But to me it just sounds like the process by which some people with DID spend a lot of time in their inner world, and the person who hypothesized it is just separating it out, calling it something different, and using this "new disorder" to make a name for themselves and publish papers.

Some people with DID do have very detailed inner worlds, and alters with complex backstories, but like with any system, that's due to a combination of what they needed and their predisposition to dissociate.


WE have alters with a VERY detailed inner world and separate life stories. We're trying to make sense of them now- to find the things clearly inspired/rationalized from outside, the things purely internal, the things between...

Sometimes, depending on your situation, you can't know that you know. Meaning, alters can't know they're alters. Hosts can't know they are one of many... so the mind entirely rationalizes things 100% apart from everyone else... in our case, _I_ had NO IDEA our inner world existed. Neither did the rest of us that lived in it.
Part of maintaining that amnesia meant that we all had to have no awareness of our nature- so those that couldn't be OUTSIDE had to live inside. The most authentic person-to-person connection they could get was each other, so most of them live near each other inside, grew up together (ironic that, right?). They had inner world lives to rationalize outside things, to keep a sense of security, safety, and to have the life they needed/wanted... and to have the security we as a system needed.

IDK about "maladaptive"- that sounds so pejorative. I think it IS a misnomer and it minimizes the amazing mental capacity to survive and create the things (the inner world) that we needed, all subconsciously. All as automatic survival instinct. I think that that is far more than "maladaptive", I think it's QUITE adaptive even. Maladaptive means NOT adapting properly to the situation- how the hell SHOULD a person, especially a child, adapt to a traumatic situation?! Survival, IMHO, by this (or any other) means, IS adaptation.
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Re: Can you have DID and MD?

Postby KitMcDaydream » Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:40 am

Maybe they mean MD can be in people that don't necessarily also have DID? But people with DID can also have MD.

There is now a subtype of Autism getting more recognised called Pathological Demand Avoidance(PDA) one of the noted differences between this and 'classic autism' is the high level of comfort in role play and fantasy (as classically autistic people aren't usually well known for their ability to 'imagine').

Its basically describing something similar to MD an excessive need to fantasize to escape reality (in their case a pathological anxiety to avoid demands - school, work anything). These people may not necessarily have DID though its clearly a type of dissociation and autistic people are in general more easily able to dissociate than your average 'Joe bloggs'.

Having said that I have been really surprised on the amount of people on DID boards/groups that also have autism!

I go on some autism sites and people there are mostly aspergers and may have 'social masks' but don't have full multiple alters Mostly they have much better social skills and many have been able to get married and have kids (which in my over pedantic mind suggests the autism can't be that bad if they can tolerate enough intimate physical contact to have kids with someone, but maybe thats because I never achieved that? I don't know).

Maybe my intense dislike/phobia of physical contact is not entirely caused by the autism alone and there's something else I can't remember? which may also be the reason my levels of dissociation are higher.

Interestingly when I was younger and unaware of a system I would say my symptoms were more of MD and I'd fantasize in secret about different sceanrio's. Oddly now the body has reached a stage there's an awareness of 'multiple mes' that has stopped!

Maybe it was other alters way of expressing themselves and getting some escape from their 'inner world' as they couldn't come 'out' completely without the host at the time developing an awareness of 'others'? Now they come out openly but often instead choose to 'lose themselves' in video games or enjoy painting or just go get some fresh air and walk the dog.
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Re: Can you have DID and MD?

Postby ArbreMonde » Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:23 am

KitMcDaydream wrote:Having said that I have been really surprised on the amount of people on DID boards/groups that also have autism!


oOo It does not surprise me since being autistic means, being overly sensitive to stress and anxiety, being at higher risks of abuse, and having higher abilities to dissociate (shutdown for example).

KitMcDaydream wrote:I go on some autism sites and people there are mostly aspergers and may have 'social masks' but don't have full multiple alters Mostly they have much better social skills and many have been able to get married and have kids (which in my over pedantic mind suggests the autism can't be that bad if they can tolerate enough intimate physical contact to have kids with someone, but maybe thats because I never achieved that? I don't know).


oOo This is why autism is a spectrum: some are averse to touch, some crave touch, it depends on the individual specificities of the person. Some find a way to mask, some just don't give a fudge about masking, some get burnout from masking... It depends on the person.

oOo There is also some form of "elitism" in the community where being "Asperger" is seen as "desirable" therefore, people do their best to appear that way, talk about how they are "Asperger not autistic" or that they are "not that disabled". It is internalized ableism in my opinion, together with a heavy social mask and a tendency to deny the disability, maybe because the environment denies that a person with an IQ average or above, can be neurologically disabled. But I digress.

KitMcDaydream wrote:Interestingly when I was younger and unaware of a system I would say my symptoms were more of MD and I'd fantasize in secret about different sceanrio's. Oddly now the body has reached a stage there's an awareness of 'multiple mes' that has stopped!


oOo It is similar here for us. When we switch and dissociate a lot, we have no need for daydreaming as a coping mechanism. When we are unable to switch or dissociate, we daydream instead. Which is one of the reasons why I don't agree with the "autistic people don't have imagination" narrative. In my opinion, we DO have imagination. It just expresses itself in an autistic way rather than a neurotypical way. Daydreaming enables a full controll of the whole process, while reading a new fantasy book set in a world we know nothing about, or roleplaying with people who will have reactions we cannot control, is more difficult.

oOo It is one of the reasons why in here we love re-reading the same fantasy books again and again, read the spoilers and analysis of the movies before watching the movies, and so on. The absence of surprise makes the experience way more enjoyable. And when we didn't have access to Internet, we would read the last 10 pages of the book before reading it from the start, in order to have some comfort of knowing where this is all going.

oOo I hope this will help see you better through the sublteties of daydreaming while autistic.

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Re: Can you have DID and MD?

Postby KitMcDaydream » Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:02 am

Thanks for answering. I feel we are similar level of autisticness and dissociation if such a thing exists!

I'd like to quote the things I agree with or relate to if thats ok (whilst still trying to remember this isn't my post and wasn't originally about autism)

ArbreMonde wrote:oOo It does not surprise me since being autistic means, being overly sensitive to stress and anxiety, being at higher risks of abuse, and having higher abilities to dissociate (shutdown for example).



oOo This is why autism is a spectrum: some are averse to touch, some crave touch, it depends on the individual specificities of the person. Some find a way to mask, some just don't give a fudge about masking, some get burnout from masking... It depends on the person.


oOo There is also some form of "elitism" in the community where being "Asperger" is seen as "desirable" therefore, people do their best to appear that way, talk about how they are "Asperger not autistic" or that they are "not that disabled". It is internalized ableism in my opinion, together with a heavy social mask and a tendency to deny the disability, maybe because the environment denies that a person with an IQ average or above, can be neurologically disabled. But I digress.



oOo It is similar here for us. When we switch and dissociate a lot, we have no need for daydreaming as a coping mechanism. When we are unable to switch or dissociate, we daydream instead. Which is one of the reasons why I don't agree with the "autistic people don't have imagination" narrative. In my opinion, we DO have imagination. It just expresses itself in an autistic way rather than a neurotypical way. Daydreaming enables a full controll of the whole process, while reading a new fantasy book set in a world we know nothing about, or roleplaying with people who will have reactions we cannot control, is more difficult.

oOo It is one of the reasons why in here we love re-reading the same fantasy books again and again, read the spoilers and analysis of the movies before watching the movies, and so on. The absence of surprise makes the experience way more enjoyable. And when we didn't have access to Internet, we would read the last 10 pages of the book before reading it from the start, in order to have some comfort of knowing where this is all going.

oOo I hope this will help see you better through the sublteties of daydreaming while autistic.

--

van H.



I have learned so much about myself in my most recent years particuarly the ones where I had been isolated but didn't need to mask on a daily basis.

In my era of growing up you only knew what you were told by doctors or parents so my understanding of 'my condition' was very limited. Even when I was eventually told I had autism (late 20's) I didn't have access to the internet and the only other autistic people I had ever met were ones with more learning disabilities who didn't understand they were autistic either or what it meant. It was not commonly known it presented very different in females and I doubt the psychologist assessing me at the time knew of the PDA profile.

I didn't know of the 'elitism' between classic autism and aspergers but in any case the psychologist stated in her report that although she felt I was 'unusual in my presentation of autism she nevertheless was convinced that it was autism and not Aspergers' I suspect given what specialists know these days I would be diagnosed with the PDA profile (if I told them honestly about 'my own world' which back in the day seemed to be taboo and not something I should tell anyone if I ever wanted to fit in with 'normal')

Sometimes I wonder how different I may have been if my mother had lived beyond my late teens, so I had more support or if all the stuff I know now and had been known back then! I might not have spent my life believing I had some kind of 'mental illness' I had to hide at all costs or be locked up for life if anyone found out!

I think people don't realise the damage that can be done to a person who has to spend their life pretending to be 'someone else' just to 'fit in' yet still many parents have this goal for their autistic child.

I'm the happiest I've been for a long time during lockdown with no pressure to 'perform as another alter or expectation to socialise'. I don't want to have to go back to feeling I have to pretend to be someone else in someone else's company because thats who they are expecting to see! (and behaving any differently with them may arouse suspicions and lead to me having to explain things I prefer not to).

I think I've gone 'off-topic'...sorry! but lastly I wanted to say it was interesting that for you also when you switch alot you lose the need to daydream excessively!

I don't mind switching other than it seems to cause severe chronic fatigue for the physical body so we've now come up with a system where people agree to switch either at night or we go for an 'afternoon rest' and they do it then eg if a social alter was needed for an appointment in the morning they are the one that gets up see's to the dog, deals with the appointment then if there's nothing else and others want to come out , they will go 'take an afternoon nap' and when the body awakes someone else will be at the helm! (though they can choose to stay out for the rest of the day if the want to do something else later)

These seems to have helped with the fatigue and physical pain levels and more is getting done in the day! Also two coming upfront but one staying in background and 'helping or influencing' rather than switching fully has also helped reduce physical fatigue levels on busier days.
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