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What happened to us

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What happened to us

Postby SystemFlo » Sun Sep 27, 2020 2:07 pm

Early this year, January I think, our, mine, therapy failed badly and ended a bit later. It's been a chaos in my mind since then what happened, how and in what order, and I had nobody to talk to, to try to understand it, make any sense of it when it was happening or right after. I've been in and out now, but there's this knot inside me that stops me from doing anything other but sometimes coming out to be a facade for us like I used to be, in smallest things. That's automatic, I know how to look normal, if I'm there. I can do it again for simple things like greeting a neighbor.

Inside my mind nothing moves, there's a lot that should be done now to our life for it to continue. I either make it thru what happened and we'll go back to how things used to be or something alike, we'll do my profession again, I'm gonna host, at least more, again. Or I don't make it and we're gonna be stuck in being how we are now. Trauma part in the front ready to take it, when we see everything falling apart. We've already kind of lost our job and stuff, soon we'll lose the opportunity to have a new T for forever. Fourteen who's been the front since our crisis started does things how he knows. Some he knows better than I did, everything he knows better than I do now, but he doesn't have healthy ways to control feelings and symptoms of his self destruction are leaving marks deeper and deeper. We don't have any treatment contact to deal with his eating disorder for example, and it would be pointless cause he doesn't wanna heal from it, it's how he survives mentally, although it's physically damaging.

I guess everyone reading this knows how with DID memories don't work like they do for people without it. There's no timeline, there's no clear story, there's parts and pieces of the story from different parts from their point of view in their timeline. Feelings and memories bunch up and it becomes overwhelming lump of stuff, and it's really hard to try to read what it holds inside. It's hard to make sense of it or explain it the way someone would understand, cause story jumps back and forth in time, it's way too messy.

I'm gonna try to put things in timeline and tell understandable story. I made this thread for it, to tell the story of how everything fell apart so quickly and why. I'll try to make sense of it and see if it was us over reacting and triggered or if it was really as badly handled fail from our T it felt like. What ever it was, it messed our life.

I promised her, the T, not to tell details of our therapy publicly, but we're not her client anymore. I think we're entitled to what happened to us instead of keeping secrets.

I don't know where to start. I just started the thread now. Now it has a place and I have a mission. This is where I'll start.

Flor
Fourteen M 14 main trauma holder, persecutor, has DID (ca 20 parts age 3-16):
- Jules M 14
- random M teen
- Leon M 4
Sami M 16 (15-26) system manager, defender
Lucas M 16 balancer, socializer, body care
Flor F
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Re: What happened to us

Postby TheGangsAllHere » Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:27 pm

Hi Flor,

I'm sorry things are rough right now. I'm very disturbed by your T telling you to keep anything a secret. She is bound to confidentiality, but you are not. Ever. It was your therapy, and the details of it belong to you.

It makes me concerned that she did something terribly wrong if she asked you not to tell people about it.

We were very damaged by a therapist who didn't have good emotional boundaries. It went on for 3 years, and it has affected our whole adult life since then. For years afterward we thought the problems were all due to us.

Therapists are human and make mistakes, but I think they should be held accountable for them, and should do everything they can to make them right when they happen. Part of that is making sure to consult with more experienced therapists, and also to listen very carefully to the client's point of view.

There is no such thing as "overreacting," at least not in therapy; there is just reacting and having someone listen and validate that your feelings are important. Just because they didn't expect a big reaction does not mean that it's not valid.

Their job is to understand it and to get across to you that they're sorry they caused you distress, and to work with you to understand what happened so they're better able to avoid triggering that same response again. And maybe along the way you gain insight into why you were triggered that way.

I don't know if you even wanted any responses on here, but Ts causing pain and damage to others is a sore spot with us.

-the Gang
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Re: What happened to us

Postby Sarandipity » Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:22 am

Hi Flor,

I thought the same thing as Gang, therapists don't usually tell you never to discuss your therapy and that sounds concerning.

Dealing with the physical issues seems really important. Karen has or had an eating disorder and to me those physical issues are the first thing to deal with. Maybe I'm wrong but they seem most important. But it's all linked so you can't deal with the physical issues without also looking at the trauma.

Like Gang, also sorry to hear its rough for you at the moment.

Sarah
Monte Carlo or Bust
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No-one and Peter, Beth and Karen, Mandy and Mouse plus a seperate system of fragments including: rabit and others.
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Re: What happened to us

Postby MakersDozn » Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:25 pm

Hi Flor,

Welcome back. We're glad to see you. And we're sorry that you're struggling.

We hope that things get better for you soon.

MDs
Multiple self-dxed 1996. Body 58f. System of 47: 42 ♀, 5 ♂; 17 littles (7+under), 9 middles (8-11), 14 teens (12-17+), 5 bigs (18+up), + a formless yin/yang. Oldest member is 25.

Notable: Charity 25, Deborah 23, Drew 23f, Mary 23, Rachel 23, Laura 17.5, Allegra 17, Cass 17, shawn 16f.
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Re: What happened to us

Postby ArbreMonde » Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:42 am

Hello Flor,

I second what the others said. Especially the Gang. It really sounds fishy that the T had you keep things a secret.

Welcome back to the forums.

oOo van H. oOo
Multiple system Dx autistic, depression, c-PTSD...

Going through a reconfiguration process. Present host: oOo van H. oOo (he/him)

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Re: What happened to us

Postby SystemFlo » Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:38 am

Thank you everyone for your replies. I do want them.

It's been hard to start explaining, because I know a lot of the details will be missing, but I just have to start somewhere. I'm starting with what happened before what I'm calling Session 1 in here, the session where things suddenly went totally wrong. It was 3 sessions all together and few very short txt-messages, and they'll be called simply that, Session 1, Session 2 and Session 3. And later on, when I realize something important is missing from what I told happened during Sessions 1-3, I'm just gonna add it in like that.

Towards the end I don't really have that much memories tho, because it was Fourteen already hosting, I just visited here, heavily influenced by others, (Sami didn't let me all the way thru anymore to protect me) and I have some foggy memories, where I was probably inside more than halfway and things happened in outside. Then there are tons of things that happened before those 3 session, which I think are a factor in here too. I'll explain them where I was reminded about them and where they felt to become part of the problem. I'm sorry if my explanation is hard to gasp, I'm still trying to understand it myself. That's why I'll write what ever I remember and add all the missing things later on. I try to write them in that order they came to me.

There is this one thing that I know shouldn't have happened, but did, few weeks (?) before the sessions that ended the therapy, and that one I'll tell first. Why? Because it's not one of those things Sami was angry about when he got pissed off, the things he showed when he showed what all has been wrong from the beginning. Non of those things he showed felt so major at the time, not even to him, because he would've been pissed off earlier if it would've been awful, but when there really was a valid reason for him to get angry, he showed all the things that were signs about what'll happen, before it did. He showed me them, so I'll understand the how deep the problem is, that it's not just in one session. But I'm starting with the one I knew was something that shouldn't happen in therapy, something I started, but it went too far, and I was aware at the time too it went too far. I didn't need Sami there to tell me that, so he never said anything about it. It's about a dog. T's dog.

Trigger warning: medical stuff about animals Our T had a dog, that was usually with her in her office. One time he wasn't there with her, so I asked where he was and T told me he limped and was home because of that. Since I was a vet nurse I asked about vet appointment, and they had seen a vet because of that and had painkillers. Since I'm curios about everything that has anything to do with my profession, I even asked what kind of painkillers. I told her, that there is also this different kind of medicine, that's not a painkiller, but helps joints from the inside. If painkillers aren't effective enough, she can ask about it from their vet. The thing about that med is that it has to be injected, but just under the skin, not into the joint, which is why vets usually give it (or nurses at the clinic). They need the injection 4 times total, one injection a week, and if it helps like it usually does, dogs can be totally pain free from 6 to 12 months. Then they need those 4 injections again. Even when it's not a painkiller, it also takes the pain away and works usually very well.

Time went by and her dog's feet didn't get any better. He was tired because of the heavy painkillers and mostly just sleeping. Then T asked me again what was the med I talked about earlier, she'd want to ask about it from their vet. I gave her meds name and then started thinking I can actually get it way cheaper for them, than if they go to their usual vet. So I asked if she was interested in changing a vet and coming to where I work at. Their current vet had no x-rays of him because he couldn't be sedated due to some complications before, but I knew that dog and knew it's no problem for me to get x-rays of him without any meds. So if she wants, I can take x-rays of him and vet can see what's wrong. Most importantly, at the same prize than having only the injection in clinic she used to go, we can get him also full massage by a doctor who has training to understand more about muscle tensions, and acupuncture, which is pretty effective for pain in animals with arthritis AND those injections. And since I'm seeing them in therapy once a week anyway, I can give the injection to the dog, so she doesn't have to drive all the way to the clinic to get them 3 following weeks. Giving an injection takes about 5 seconds total, so it's not a big deal. It's done in time that I'd use to say hello to the doggy anyway. I knew it's not a problem for our clinic to sell the med for her, when they know it's me who takes care of it, she just pays for it. So I though we had a plan and T just needs to call to the clinic and make appointment. I also send a message about her dogs situation to the vet beforehand, because owners don't usually know what to say, what's important, and the person who happens to answer the phone won't obviously know my T's dog either.

She didn't make an appointment to our clinic during that week, I wondered why, but there was a good reason. He had pee leaking out by an accident, new symptom that started after we talked about his appointment in our clinic, so she (T) had thought he has an infection and vent to see their nearest vet for that. In there it turned out, that it was not an infection, and that the pee isn't the problem, it's just a symptom about the condition in his spine and therefor linked to his limping that had lasted for months at that point. That appointment (my T appointment) we talked about the dog: when it's time to give up and time for euthanasia etc. I did that a lot with owners at work, sometimes there were seriously sick animals, but owners don't understand how seriously, because they don't understand the medical side of it. So we need to take a time to explain what it is and what are the options if there are any and take a time to sooth down the owners so they can think clearly and don't feel pushed. Sometimes it takes a lot of time to discuss about that with them. There are factors to check to estimate the quality of life etc, and personally I usually tell my own experience about euthanasia in nutshell: what I regret most, is the dog we waited too long with, although it had a condition that was only gonna get worse and worse, not better. He suffered, and then we didn't understand it. Later on I've thought it differently: it's not a mater if you get week or month more time with that animal, it's about is it allowed to leave while still happy or do you wait until there's nothing more but the pain.

That T session was therapy for her. She told how it took 2 years to get over losing her other dog earlier, and how it's really hard to even think she has to do it all again now. She cried, I was emphatic like I am in professional role. And I was in my professional role.

I didn't ask, since it's not my business for real, about her dog again. But it came to our mind that when our problems in therapy started and escalated so fast, it could be about the dog in the end. That it had died, she wasn't in condition to work (and she took a vacation in the end) and she probably had problem with me personally, because of being part of that. It's clear it shouldn't have happened. She shouldn't have cried to me, not even when it was me who started to take care of her dog and it's treatment in the first place. Switching the roles should never have happened. Trigger warning ends

It's possible that the dog had nothing to do with how things went, I don't know for sure. It just came to my mind as a possibility. But even if it doesn't, that's still tells something. And I think the way things ended shows very well what was the problem with the therapy from the beginning. I mean her reactions to our reactions in Sessions 1-3, that I'll write about next time. I never felt like she's the kind of person, who is there for me, who can take what ever I got, who can accept how I feel and will not be disturbed what ever I have to tell her. Rather than being a T to me, who can take the sick sides of me without judgment to find the roots of it, it felt like she was teaching me how to be in a friendship. But that's not my problem. That's not something I wanna pay for. I can get a friend and be equals, it's not a problem to me, to understand friends don't have to be anyone's Ts, with friends you are equals. But Ts have to be Ts, not teach friendships. She was way too busy to tell us how she feels about our reactions to hear at all how we felt, or to understand we were totally justified to feel that because of how she behaved.

I know Sami is somewhere close, cause I feel like getting angrier the more I wrote. That's probably gonna happen in future too when I tell about this, you may feel me getting angrier more I write. He's still pissed out, and comes close when this subject is discussed. Don't mind if we get angry, it's not about anyone who reads this. I know this is only our side of the story and T's story is probably something totally different. We still need this out of our system to move forwards, and that's why we don't always have to understand other people's sides. We have enough sides in ourself.

Flor
Fourteen M 14 main trauma holder, persecutor, has DID (ca 20 parts age 3-16):
- Jules M 14
- random M teen
- Leon M 4
Sami M 16 (15-26) system manager, defender
Lucas M 16 balancer, socializer, body care
Flor F
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Re: What happened to us

Postby SeveralCrows » Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:59 pm

Hi Flor,

It's nice to hear from your system again.

You're right, switching roles like that should never happen in therapy. Your T didn't maintain boundaries when she should have and you should be able to trust your T to do that.

Your system have every right to be angry. We hope that it helps to feel the anger when you write, and want to affirm that we won't mind if you get angry. Your feelings are welcome here.

Crows
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System currently being reconfigured. Please stand by.
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Re: What happened to us

Postby SystemFlo » Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:49 am

Thank you, Crows. I needed to hear that.

Session 1:

We go to T's office normally. T asks if it's OK for us to discuss a bit about therapy in general and how it's going. I say yeah. She asks me if there's anything I wanna change, and I said something. I'm not sure what. My guess is it was about me hoping her to be more there or something like that, more supportive. I can't remember the words, I remember what I meant, but it's important to us that we don't lie in here. So I'll just say I can't remember what I said. She asked something about what I had said to understand it better, but it was kind of clear she wasn't that interested, that she didn't wanna have this discussion to know how we feel, but to get to tell what she thinks. Asking me was just a way to get there. She's not good at hiding anything, and to be honest, I think that to be a successful T, you should be a way better liar. It was obvious she was just hurrying to have her turn.

Sami is the one who remembers conversations word to word, all of it, but he's not here right now. So I don't remember what she said either. The subject was about us needing to change something we're doing now, because it doesn't work. She has no clue about my actual outside life and what anything I've ever told her has to do with it. She's not happy with the amount of progress we're making, or maybe that she doesn't even know is there progress or not.

Nothing wrong in there, kind of nothing. I can't say nothing because Sami is angry about the start too, his whys will be explained later. But anyway, I got her point there and then and understand the problem and that it exists. What bothers me that she's speaking with a voice way louder than her normal voice and her tone is angry. I'm kind of sensitive with loud noises overall, and tend to go away from people who speak loudly naturally. She doesn't speak too loud naturally, she had clearly different volume than her normal. I don't feel safe or comfortable with her acting like she's angry at me, and my concentration goes to that instead of the actual subject. I realize myself that I'm not looking at her anymore, but staring into nothing, away from her, to avoid the behavior I feel is aggressive, but don't understand why it is. So what I do? I think I'll just say it aloud and she'll change her approach and we get to the point.

That never happens, we never get to the point.

I tell her "you sound angry" and think she's gonna understand I say it to stop her. She has clearly missed other signs, like lacking eye contact, because she clearly is angry. And that's what she says. "Because I am. I'm angry and frustrated." And she goes on, with the same loud voice and angry tone, continuing what ever it is that makes her angry and at that point Sami jumps in. People do NOT yell at me. It can happen, and it's fine, if it stops when I say so, when we reach he point it triggers. If it doesn't stop, I can't deal with it, and that means you gonna deal with our defender. He can say it the way it gets understood. And then there's two options: to stop yelling or say buh-byes.

Important things first: he could have just get up and walk away, but I guess he didn't, because therapy is my thing, and it's my decision to stay or leave. T is not violent, just triggering, no need to over react, but need to react, because we are triggered and I can't function. Sami evacuates away all parts who he feels need to be protected. I'm just kind of there, or someone, pretty empty, still staring into nothing and T goes on and on. From that point on, I didn't speak anymore. Sami said all what was said there,but he wasn't there fully either. It came unexpectedly, so partly he is concentrating on gate keeping. Words were his, some body language probably, voice mine.

I don't remember all the conversation. It lasted about 30 minutes, and it didn't go anywhere. Sami said she crossed our boundaries and that's not fine. She doesn't wanna hear, but argue. Sami says it's not fine with us she's yelling, and she argues with the exact same loud voice "Is this yelling to you?". He answers yes. She says people can disagree sometimes, but world isn't gonna end there, and Sami tells her we have not disagreed, but she crosses our boundaries by her behavior and refuses to stop, and that's not what she can do. She asks then what, what if people do that and don't stop, Sami says they'll be removed from our life. "As simple as that?" "As simple as that." There are lot of long pauses, and things aren't in the order they were said, because I can't remember the order. At some point T says angrily when I'm sitting there silent, because Sami is dealing with gates, "could you even try to act like an adult?" That was in the beginning, before Sami started to make his point.

Half an hour Sami repeats to her she crosses our boundaries, but she refuses to change her tone or lower her volume. It starts to be the end of the session, and T says something about changing to other subject, probably to wrap up what's been going on and end the session. Sami says "No. There will be no other subjects until this one is dealt with." He stands up and when he walk by T's chair leaving T says "We'll see." like a challenge, that she's having it her way. Like some teenager.

Well, if she thought she's gonna have me back next time, admitting she indeed has a right to act ways we feel are aggressive to the point I can't function in an adult level anymore, she was wrong. She got a defender, this time fully out, and prepared.

Flor
Fourteen M 14 main trauma holder, persecutor, has DID (ca 20 parts age 3-16):
- Jules M 14
- random M teen
- Leon M 4
Sami M 16 (15-26) system manager, defender
Lucas M 16 balancer, socializer, body care
Flor F
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Re: What happened to us

Postby Una+ » Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:24 am

Well, other people have boundaries too. When boundaries collide and that means the relationship is over, it may be that one or both person's boundaries are too rigid for their own good. Just a thought.
Dx DID older woman married w kids. 0 Una, host + 3, 1, 5. 1 animal. 2 older man. 3 teen girl. 4 girl behind amnesia wall. 5 girl in love. Our thread.
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Re: What happened to us

Postby TheGangsAllHere » Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:36 am

I'm not sure what Una+ means, but therapy relationships are different from other kinds of relationships, and most of the responsibility is on the T to maintain appropriate boundaries and to mange their own feelings in a way that's in the patient's best interest. The patient should never have to guess or wonder where the therapist's boundaries are, but the T should always be attentive to their patient's boundaries and triggers.

It makes sense that a trauma survivor is going to focus on the potentially dangerous emotional state of a person who is supposed to be a stable support, and not be able to focus on the content of whatever that other person is saying. If your T was feeling angry and frustrated, that was for her to deal with in her supervision or own therapy. Especially if she was somehow blaming you for those feelings.

It's also not appropriate for her to ask you a question and not be interested in the answer. To use a question like that as a way to start airing her own feelings is one of the tricks that passive-aggressive people use. They don't want to be responsible for having said their piece first about the topic, so they pretend that they want to hear your thoughts first.

And saying, "could you even try to act like an adult?" is a completely unacceptable thing to say to any patient, let alone to one with DID many of whose parts might not BE adults! And what does that even mean? You should be allowed to sit there in silence without being accused of being childish.

A basic tenet of DID treatment is to be very respectful of protectors. If a protector is triggered out, a good T knows not to get into a power struggle with them. There's nothing therapeutic in that.

It sounds from this description that there was a lot of countertransference that she was experiencing and she was acting on it rather than examining it, which is where T's can get into a lot of trouble and cause a lot of damage.

I certainly don't see that you did anything wrong. My T has never had an angry tone in his voice with us, and he has said that if there's some kind of misunderstanding or rupture between us, he looks to himself first to see how he contributed to it. If he was ever actually angry at us or blaming us for something, it would completely break our trust in him. And if he was angry about something else, but couldn't manage it in front of us, that would be very scary also.
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