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What happened to us

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Re: What happened to us

Postby Una+ » Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:40 pm

Una+ wrote:Well, other people have boundaries too. When boundaries collide and that means the relationship is over, it may be that one or both person's boundaries are too rigid for their own good. Just a thought.


Continuing...

Gently, this is not about assigning blame. It is about what is a boundary. Telling someone else "your are crossing a boundary" or "I am triggered" is in most cases nearly useless. What boundary, exactly? The other person does not know and likely will guess wrong.

Also, and more importantly, telling someone repeatedly that they are crossing your boundary, and expecting them to change their behavior, is actually failing to maintain your boundary; it is setting (or trying to set) a limit on someone else's behavior. This is what a co-dependent person does; their idea of self care is to make the other person care for them. This is also what parents do with children. In a healthy parent child relationship there is a progressive, often difficult transition over time from limit setting to boundaries. An example is toileting. The parent sets a limit when communicating to the child a new expectation that the child will use only the toilet. The parent maintains a boundary when ceasing to do certain toileting tasks for the child. The parent's hope is that limits set by the parent will be taken up by the child as boundaries.

Your boundaries are entirely yours to maintain. You do that by telling the other person specifically what you do and don't want, or changing the subject, or simply maintaining your composure when the other person speaks too loudly or you don't like their tone, or leaving the room, or terminating treatment, or any number of other actions. If telling the other person doesn't work the first time, telling them does not maintain your boundary and you must do something else to maintain it. The other person, even if a therapist, is free to not accept the limit you set and to not conform to your requirements. You are free to terminate work with a therapist whose behavior is unacceptable to you, and there are other actions you can take. You can even repair the relationship, if you choose to.

By way of example: Many therapists I interviewed didn't make it past an initial phone call. One therapist I saw for an initial session leapt out of the chair in a rage and yelled at me that most clients reporting sexual assault were liars. I neither took the therapist's outburst personally nor felt invalidated nor talked back nor complained my boundary was being crossed. I maintained my boundary by not reacting in any way, not owning the therapist's trigger, but evaluating if I needed to leave the room at once or call 911. The therapist was triggered by my material, which is what it is, so clearly that therapist was not competent to treat me or many other clients. I took no offense, I just never went back, did not pay for the session, told the practice manager I would not pay and why, and that if they tried to collect the session fee I would file a complaint with the state licensing board. The therapist soon left (or was let go from?) the practice.

I hope this helps to clarify how I understand boundaries and maintaining them, and also that this understanding is useful to you. I find it works wonders for me.
Dx DID older woman married w kids. 0 Una, host + 3, 1, 5. 1 animal. 2 older man. 3 teen girl. 4 girl behind amnesia wall. 5 girl in love. Our thread.
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Re: What happened to us

Postby Una+ » Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:02 pm

Continuing...

I learned about maintaining boundaries only as an adult, long after I left my FOO. In my FOO the go-to maintenance technique was an immediate display of umbrage, accusations, threats, yelling, escalating to physical violence. It was all attempted limit-setting on the other person. Regardless of what side I was on I would cry with rage and humiliation. (Or I would lose time and the part left to deal with the situation would capitulate and comply. Yuck!!!)

As a young adult to avoid crying I mostly took whatever came at me, take it or leave it. I took a lot of offensive behavior I shouldn't have, and stuffed my feelings down inside, or sometimes I did what my FOO always did and I yelled and cried and broke things. But my go-to boundary maintenance method, that I thought was so very mature, was to leave. Leave the relationship. Leave the job. Cancel the membership, cancel participation. I would go do something else. By most people's measure I am very successful, but perhaps I am nowhere near as successful as I would have been if I'd had more skills.

In the language of books about boundaries, my boundaries were either insubstantial vapor or rigid rock. I had no firm, flexible, resilient membrane.

None of this is unique; I see many other people online and in person who struggle with boundaries and limit setting.
Dx DID older woman married w kids. 0 Una, host + 3, 1, 5. 1 animal. 2 older man. 3 teen girl. 4 girl behind amnesia wall. 5 girl in love. Our thread.
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Re: What happened to us

Postby MakersDozn » Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:17 pm

Your posts discussing boundaries in more detail were very helpful to us, Una. Thank you.

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Multiple self-dxed 1996. Body 58f. System of 47: 42 ♀, 5 ♂; 17 littles (7+under), 9 middles (8-11), 14 teens (12-17+), 5 bigs (18+up), + a formless yin/yang. Oldest member is 25.

Notable: Charity 25, Deborah 23, Drew 23f, Mary 23, Rachel 23, Laura 17.5, Allegra 17, Cass 17, shawn 16f.
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Re: What happened to us

Postby SystemFlo » Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:53 am

Una+ wrote: Well, other people have boundaries too. When boundaries collide and that means the relationship is over, it may be that one or both person's boundaries are too rigid for their own good. Just a thought.


I don't understand what this means for us. What boundary of T's you do think we crossed there and why?

We stand by each other. I don't blame any part of the system for anything, I don't see anything wrong with the way they reacted, what they did or what they do now. Not even when ones way of dealing with everything is self harm. It's not ideal, but if things would be, we wouldn't be here in the forum, or been in need of therapy. We do things we know, the best we can. I see trauma behind the reactions and am sad T was either not able to see it or just didn't care, or that she wasn't even willing to try. I think what our defender did was wise. Surprising, but wise.

I blame myself for ruining our chance to get help. I wasted 1,5 years with a T I never felt close with. But my attachment style is so avoidant, it's hard to know if it's just that, or was it really her or things between us. And somehow I missed all the little abandonments during that time. I woke up when it happened to me, and that's something to be shamed of. I didn't wake up when it happened in little things or for other parts. But then it happened, in session 1, the thing we had been waiting for in therapy, and I felt a genuine feeling about something in there after all that time. My feeling just wasn't received the way I thought it would be, but instead of finally starting to create trust, that turned out to be the end of the therapy.

If our boundaries are too rigid to your liking, that's just an opinion. I disagree. Strongly. I would be concerned if I would have to live with a defender who sees me going unable to function, and thinks situation is fine. I need help, when I need help, and that is based in trauma. I can not deal with aggressive person like that. Judgement from here and therapist about how wrong triggers place is, or is it justified for little to get scared when yelled at, or justified to stop there to evacuate the little, non of those opinions of others will change where we reach that point where I need help. Judgement will not cure that. Telling it's sick won't cure that.

I was looking for therapy, where T could be that help to me. Validate a feeling if we do get triggered and then help with it. She wasn't, she was the one we needed to get away from to be safe. But our defender was there, so we did get out. He was there for that exact second, when I needed him. We just didn't run away after first mistake, but after it was clear there truly was nothing there for us, any of us.

When I need help, that will be the point where he helps me. And I refuse to take any blame about it, to anyone bout getting triggered at the wrong point or to him for helping when we need him.

Una+ wrote:Gently, this is not about assigning blame. It is about what is a boundary.


You wrote your comment to the story about something that's very personal to me and more importantly to younger trauma parts, which is why I can not let it go without commenting, like it wouldn't be about us. We're not well, physically or mentally after what happened. Leaving T meant we gave up the opportunity to do any trauma processing ever. We're allowed to grieve that.

I said several times the story won't be told well. I'm writing it to understand it myself, things aren't in the order they happened yet, the way of telling the story is strongly affected by how I feel when writing and that is up to who is closest, trauma holder, little or a defender, and I told beforehand how it's gonna be, not finished, jumping, not logical and lacking information, I told it all before saying anything. There's memories from memory bank, Sami's memories, emotions from little, memories from Fourteen, memories of mine.

Una+ wrote: Telling someone else "your are crossing a boundary" or "I am triggered" is in most cases nearly useless. What boundary, exactly? The other person does not know and likely will guess wrong.


I wanna be sure I'm not telling lies, like claim things were said that weren't etc, but the emotion behind the writing still affects a lot to how you understand what happened there. Don't assume things about it, like the tone that I'm writing with would've been the tone Sami spoke to T in there. Just do not make assumptions about things you don't know and try to understand how much you do not know. Rather ask if it's important for you to know what happened, and we try to find the right person to tell the thing asked, because when I'm reading a thing like this in this thread that is about us trying to make a way back to normal living, not in a thread about boundaries in general, I can't help feeling you are commenting us. And in this case mostly our defender. Weirdly he is just blamed for both, being too rigid with boundaries, and lacking them. Neither one is true.

I do not know where you got the idea, that it wasn't told to T why we were triggered and what it was that did cross our boundaries. It was 45 minutes session, and those few sentences I mentioned from here and there weren't all that was said in there. I'm just writing this in order that makes sense to me. That is why I took the risk of being criticized about everything that's wrong in us, to make sense of what happened, and make first a broken story about all the pieces I can gather and then a, I don't know. Some kind of closure. It's been 10 months and I haven't been out a lot. Those bits and pieces about ending therapy is pretty much all there's been for me. I just want the chaos out of my mind.

Next post I was gonna write was supposed to be about all the things that made the system upset and Sami so angry. Following week after session 1 there was not much in our head but that. That was the order I experienced it. That's why I didn't open what was important in those sentences I picked. Doing the security check is not my job in the system. I was informed about what Sami found out and how things linked in his mind only afterwards, not then and there. There is reasons for why he chose to do things like he did them.

Una+ wrote:Also, and more importantly, telling someone repeatedly that they are crossing your boundary, and expecting them to change their behavior, is actually failing to maintain your boundary;


Yes. Sami has written in this forum himself it's useless to repeat the same thing. If it wasn't understood the first time, problem rarely is in lack of understanding, but in not wanting to understand. He doesn't do yes-no conversations generally. Session 1 was first time he ever spoke in therapy, until that, for 1,5 years he had been there observing. I was the one who wanted therapy and I was the one who asked others to come too, to talk to T and some did. I'm sorryI did that to them.. Therapy was for me, and it was up to me to decide whether to continue or not. It all spiraled down so quickly, I was not prepared. Going in that day I really had no clue things could go like They did. But if we'd just left and never gone back after T refused to lower her voice, it would've felt like over reacting. So he gave her several opportunities to change her attitude and actually listen to what he says, instead of continuing with stupid attempts to be right. Like questioning her loud voice wouldn't be yelling, but just her normal speaking voice. She must have known she was not speaking normally. It was awful, but I needed to see she doesn't care.

I needed to see that. I needed to be there and actually see, how for half an hour she knowingly attacked us without caring how we feel and what it causes, although she knew. And her reason? We are not doing enough progress in therapy. That is like a doctor starting to shout to a patient, because patients tumor has not disappeared but grown regardless of treatments. The difference is, that the tumor does not grow or get smaller based on doctors behavior, but in therapy, T actually can make her patients problem worse.

Una+ wrote: it is setting (or trying to set) a limit on someone else's behavior. This is what a co-dependent person does; their idea of self care is to make the other person care for them.


Setting a boundary means literally limiting someone else's behavior and it has nothing to do with expecting other person to take care of you. Just like you explain below

Una+ wrote: You do that by telling the other person specifically what you do and don't want, or changing the subject, or simply maintaining your composure when the other person speaks too loudly or you don't like their tone, or leaving the room, or terminating treatment, or any number of other actions. If telling the other person doesn't work the first time, telling them does not maintain your boundary and you must do something else to maintain it. The other person, even if a therapist, is free to not accept the limit you set and to not conform to your requirements. You are free to terminate work with a therapist whose behavior is unacceptable to you, and there are other actions you can take.


Yeah, and all that was done a long time ago. We're just not in that part of the story yet.

Una+ wrote: You can even repair the relationship, if you choose to.


No, no you can't. It takes two to repair. One doing it alone is just submission to the behavior you refused to accept earlier.

Still, having a defender with boundaries doesn't take away the emotional damage of being worthless and alone once again.

Flor
Dx DID
main system:
Flor F adult co-host
Sami M 15-26 (age slider) system manager, defender
(Lucas M 17 caretaker)
etc.

subsystem:
Fourteen M 14 co-host, trauma holder, persecutor:
- random M 14
- Jules M 14
- Leon M 4
- etc.
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Re: What happened to us

Postby TheGangsAllHere » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:55 am

I hope that you saw my response to you as well, and that it didn’t get lost among all the posts that Una+ made. Everything you wrote about your reactions and response to the T makes sense to me, and the way you felt seems like how we would feel in that kind of situation.

Boundaries are useful as a concept, but that’s one of the things that people with relational trauma go to therapy for help with. A therapist has to have a clear sense of their emotional boundaries and it’s their duty and responsibility to manage their own feelings and to always be clear about their motivation and intent for expressing any feelings to a patient.
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Re: What happened to us

Postby SystemFlo » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:30 am

TheGangsAllHere wrote:I hope that you saw my response to you as well, and that it didn’t get lost among all the posts that Una+ made. Everything you wrote about your reactions and response to the T makes sense to me, and the way you felt seems like how we would feel in that kind of situation.

Boundaries are useful as a concept, but that’s one of the things that people with relational trauma go to therapy for help with. A therapist has to have a clear sense of their emotional boundaries and it’s their duty and responsibility to manage their own feelings and to always be clear about their motivation and intent for expressing any feelings to a patient.


I did see it, and thank you for that and the first comment to this thread too. I think you understand us well, because I think our main trauma is same kind, abandonment and things linked to that. It may be hard to understand what am I complaining about to someone with different type of trauma.

I think therapy should be a place, that is safe for patient that has no boundaries or protectors or defenders what so ever. It should be safe to a part like Fourteen who freezes easily and gets stuck to a traumatic situation and doesn't understand the way out, even if told he's free to leave any time he feels he has to. Therapist should be a safe person to learn about those things with. Those kind of problems are a reason to seek therapy, not an excuse why it's fine T used that patient to let out her own feelings.

What Una+ wrote triggered me a lot and it took hours to understand what was actually said in there, instead of what I assumed it means. And in the end what Una+ wrote was opinions Sami agrees with. We aren't easily manipulated, we know and realize the ways of manipulation from far. Sami grew to do that and to defend my mom who has no understanding of boundaries and is therefor abused herself and also crossed our boundaries badly when we were little. She still doesn't know how not to do that, because she doesn't understand the concept in emotional level at all. But what ever our past is, we agree and do know those things

I know Una+ didn't say it is fine for therapist to be abusive to a patient, if they don't have boundaries good enough, but it kind of still turns in my mind like it would've been said. That is because I told about a situation where one person was acting knowingly way that she knew was harmful. When someone gets abused or treated badly any way, the fault is always in the person who violates the other one, not in the victim. Even if you'd be very vulnerable and easy to exploit, it does not make exploiting you OK or to be your own fault.

I see Una+ told personal things about them too, and I do believe there was no intention to harm, but just a thought, or maybe an idea to try to help with how to react if something alike happens in future. Because I see they thought there is a problem in our boundaries. I understand I could think so too and write something more theoretical to someone and mean it only best way. Why it still tries to turn to accepting violation is because instead of getting empathy because of what happened, I got instructions how I should've behaved.

There's no need to apologize, you didn't say anything wrong Una+. It was confusing, when Sami was accused of something that isn't his flaw but strength. And that's why it took time from us to understand there is no problem in that, other than misunderstanding caused by lack of information, because in fact you two agree. And that I'm still in the point where I'm broken and in need of support, emotional support, rather than in state of analyzing and rationalizing. I do have a sensitive side in me now, that I have not had and I think it's healing, definitely not something to suffocate.

There are analyzes and observations in the story of what happened, but they're made by Sami.

I hope you don't feel attacked because I was triggered by your message Una+, you are welcome to write in here, there's no problem between you and us from our side. Triggers make ability to understand reality blurred, but it is not your fault where our trauma is or what triggers us. I know it was not your intention to trigger or accuse, rather analyze, if I understood you correctly.

Flor
Dx DID
main system:
Flor F adult co-host
Sami M 15-26 (age slider) system manager, defender
(Lucas M 17 caretaker)
etc.

subsystem:
Fourteen M 14 co-host, trauma holder, persecutor:
- random M 14
- Jules M 14
- Leon M 4
- etc.
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Re: What happened to us

Postby Una+ » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:34 pm

This is really important so I'll say it again: an adult's personal boundaries are that adult's own personal responsibility. If another adult is made aware of a boundary and does not immediately change their behavior, it is tempting to hold that other adult responsible. But that is a mistake. That is a kind of self-neglect, even self-abuse, dressed up as entitlement.

Regardless of whether the other adult is at fault, the adult whose boundary is crossed ultimately is responsible for maintaining that boundary. Here another psychological concept comes into play: locus of control.
Dx DID older woman married w kids. 0 Una, host + 3, 1, 5. 1 animal. 2 older man. 3 teen girl. 4 girl behind amnesia wall. 5 girl in love. Our thread.
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Re: What happened to us

Postby TheGangsAllHere » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:17 pm

Una+, what are you proposing a person should do if, as a result of ongoing relational trauma since early childhood, they do not HAVE a sense of where they end and another person begins? What if one of their therapy goals is to *develop* appropriate boundaries?? What if “self-neglect” is an ongoing given for them since it’s what they were taught, and any kind of putting one’s needs before those of another is seen as a hugely risky step?

You seem to think that a firm boundary is an automatic feature of all adults.

It is part of the therapist’s JOB to step back and apologize if they inadvertently cross a boundary. To model appropriate boundaries and to model *respect* for boundaries.
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Re: What happened to us

Postby SystemFlo » Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:07 am

Una+ wrote:This is really important so I'll say it again: an adult's personal boundaries are that adult's own personal responsibility. If another adult is made aware of a boundary and does not immediately change their behavior, it is tempting to hold that other adult responsible. But that is a mistake. That is a kind of self-neglect, even self-abuse, dressed up as entitlement.

Regardless of whether the other adult is at fault, the adult whose boundary is crossed ultimately is responsible for maintaining that boundary. Here another psychological concept comes into play: locus of control.


Telling an example after everything that's already been said would be a waste of time. So let's just handle this the way it is.

To us it doesn't matter what lengths are you personally ready to go as a self claimed right to refuse to respect people's safety. What matters is that you actually do think it is a right to violate them if possible, and if people get hurt while you continue what ever it is you are doing to them, it's not just only their problem and not yours, but also their fault, and failure in their life.

If a person is unable to see there is something wrong in their ethics, when having beliefs like that, there's nothing I'm interested in doing to try to change that. Person with entitlement is a person with entitlement, because obviously, these standards also apply to yourself, although you avoided saying that aloud. That is why I said it.

This thread won't be closed because of you, but we do not want it to be flooded with discussion about something irrelevant to it's topic. If your beliefs are based on self blame rather than self entitlement, sad, but that's no justification to spread that guilt to other people. You can have your own thread to share your thoughts about the lack of responsibility when hurting others and call it lack of their boundary in there. Eliminating all that from this thread would be a rightful thing to do, since this is for Flor, your topic is not aligned with the topic of the thread and we're not discussing about this anymore.

I have to admit, that this is an interestingly set situation. If that was intentional, congrats, it was almost clever. When asked you to stop, you can claim it's a poorly set boundary and by coming back to tell it, proof that to be true, because it didn't lead to the end result I wanted. If not asked, you'd have our approval to feed your ideology in here further. But there's not gonna be any games, because I don't play obeying your standards. I've never claimed I can control what you do, I claim it to be totally your responsibility, not mine.

You've read what's been written in here, and it means it's no surprise that people without ability or will to respect boundaries won't stay in our life. You've made it clear you believe in right to cross them, which means buh byes.

I hope everyone will stop commenting the boundary-topic in this thread from now on. Thanks for everyone who co-operates.

Sami
Dx DID
main system:
Flor F adult co-host
Sami M 15-26 (age slider) system manager, defender
(Lucas M 17 caretaker)
etc.

subsystem:
Fourteen M 14 co-host, trauma holder, persecutor:
- random M 14
- Jules M 14
- Leon M 4
- etc.
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Re: What happened to us

Postby Allcoulors » Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:53 pm

Im sorry but if you go on reacting like this as a system you will not learn antything. Its clear you dont even want to. Your manipulating and telling people what to do. Thats not ok. Im not ok with that and i can react where and when i want to. This is a public forum. If you dont like the reactions then dont open a topic.
Una is trying to make you reflect on boudries and relationships, she has very good points. Dont treat her like you do because you dont agree.
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