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Beth and Karen

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Beth and Karen

Postby Sarandipity » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:26 am

The twins want us to type this because they think it'll be therapeutic and they have no sense of privacy or shame. Anyway we agreed to type it.

Karen: Beth you're depressed. You sit and don't do anything and are too introspective.

Beth: That's very judgey of you. But yes, I can see your point. I would literally just sit here if you didn't show up.

Karen: What's making you depressed? You know the twins sent me to learn counselling and psychotherapy to help you and we stopped qualifying once I'd learnt enough. It had nothing to do with me not wanting to hear people's $#%^ like we told you. So what is making you depressed?

Beth: I'm depressed because I keep thinking about what other terrible things could of happened to me other than the stuff I know about now. I'm depressed because I worry my parents abused me not just my uncle. I keep getting images of different times, things I half remember but then there's a gap. And it's making me doubt my whole life as well as the feeling that other bad stuff happened and I don't remember and that's really really depressing. It's paralysing depressing.

Karen: What half images Beth?

Beth: I remember I slept in the bathroom on the scales. And my dad came in and lifted me up and carried me and said "did you think you could hide from me in here" and laughed a bit. Then I don't remember what happened. It's like part of me thinks he put me in bed like a normal person and part of me thinks he took me in his room with mum and did horrible stuff to me.

It's depressing because if its true he did horrible stuff then that's on its own depressing. And it's depressing because if its not true then I'm a really messed up person to think something like that, something so terrible. I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. Either I'm sexually abused by my parents or I'm really really sick in the head. I just want the truth. If I knew 100% which was the truth I could face it and get help and know what's wrong with me. Am I abused or sick in the head? There's no nice option there. I thought about there being a possible third option and considered after what happened with my uncle is it a messed up Electra complex that would cause such stuff but that goes back to "sick in the head" I just want the truth.

Karen: That is a difficult place to be in and I can see why that would paralyse you with depression. It's the not knowing that has become the root of this rather than what happened.

Beth: When you say "what happened" do you mean it did happen, all my worst fears.

Karen: You know the twins have always used outside stimulus and places as memory hooks. So as much as I believe we were abused and that caused my eating issues, sleeping around etc I can't 100% tell you that what I believe is accurate because I have no actual memory of it either. They told us where they hinged that memory to.

Beth: yes, they show me the place often. They show me them standing there with Mandy. And they tell me we have to go there. It's up high, a long climb, we only went there once and they picked it because of its name. They picked it because we hate climbing hills and heights, the name of the place is scary so we'd only go there if we really really wanted those memories to come back. They say they don't remember either and it might not be our worse fears, it could be something else. Looking at the place in the mind isn't enough, we have to physically go there. Like when one of us falls asleep for ages and we have to go to certain places to "pick them up" so they catch up, feel like themselves properly, connect to the outside world again and it's a smoother easier way then throwing someone out front and they're disorientated. Like how no-one went to places she felt connected to and then felt ok quicker.

Karen: they promised me remembering like this and using an outside point is more gentle and taken on by the brain better than if they didn't use outside points. I believe them.

Beth: I have to go there then. I think that's the other reason I've been sitting doing nothing. It's procrastination as well as paralysing depression. We'll book time off work, book a hotel near there and do it.

Karen: after our holiday though. We will go there. Stop procrastinating and know we'll go there.

Beth: Worst case we remember nothing and I still don't know so I have nothing to loose.

Karen: Yes. So we'll get on with the day now?

Beth: :)
[/coloru]Sarandipity
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Re: Beth and Karen

Postby Sarandipity » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:42 am

That did not help. I'm emotionally a wreck now. From frozen depressed I'm sobbing and the "I just want to run away" feeling is there intensely. But there's nothing to run away from. I'm not in a threatening situation. I'm in a responsibility situation generally - usual life responsibility. But not threat. I feel sad and intensely sad and I just want to run away like I could collapse on the floor in a heap also. I can't just decide in my head what is true and what isn't because I have nothing to go by. Putting it all on visiting a place I visited as a kid is stupid, I want to run away now. But like I said there's nothing external to run away from. I can't run inside, I've tried. I'm trying to run away from myself - the only person you can't run away from - because there's nothing else to run away from I must be trying to run away from myself right now.
[/coloru]Sarandipity
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Re: Beth and Karen

Postby Sarandipity » Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:01 pm

And now, as this disorder goes, I feel different again. Different and differently. I went to have a soak in the bath and I "told myself stories" and imagined "great things" Then I stood up in the water under the shower as I sometimes do and washed my hair as the water drained away. Instead of feeling weak like I want to run I feel strong and ancient, everything feels good - simple things like a heightened awareness but it's a heightened awareness too of things that need to be cleaned as well as things tasting better. I feel in control and powerful. Completely not how I felt before I bathed. This is this disorder I guess, how it allows functioning. It's not an alter I feel I'm feeling but a presence in my self that I didn't feel before. I've felt it before today but I didn't feel it earlier when I was distraught but I feel it now.
[/coloru]Sarandipity
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Re: Beth and Karen

Postby Floralie » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:08 pm

Not knowing what happened during a time you can not recall does not make you crazy, Beth. If you think you are crazy because you are aware there's an opportunity for something bad in there, it's just logic, not crazy. Because amnesia is a coping mechanism like any other in DID, it's logical to think it maybe isn't there without a reason. On the other hand it's normal for childhood memories be just bits and pieces. I think you know with what kind of voice he said it, and how you felt when you were found. That's information too.

Memories are not solid. They can change. Also the ones that feel very true, can be false memories, partly or all of it. It's what happen to all people and with any memories. They mix up with each other, part of it gets lost, part of it takes symbolic form. So we need to settle with the thought we may never get to know the real truth, we only get to know what we remember. So don't give too much value to something you can not get, remembering is not what heals you. You will be healed when all traumatic beliefs, distorted feelings and symptoms go away, and they do that when you face them one by one. It can help to know why they are there, and you can be sure they are not there for nothing. But the exact real reality about what happened is not as important than it feels like. Getting to know it does not heal.

It's understandable to want to know what exactly happened, and especially get to know who all were in it, hurting you, so you don't trust them again. Your parents failed you anyway. They failed to protect you, or they were part of hurting you. If you feel there's any change they were part of it, just get them out of your life. Or does that sound too painful to do?

I do understand you. For years and years I had the feeling, for decades actually, that there is something, like one thing, I need to be able to remember from my childhood, and when I get to know it, all problems will go away naturally. It's like then the case is solved and you I can move forward in life. But that is not how it really is. It was hopeful thinking it would be one thing. It's all things together, millions little things that made us who we are, and we don't stop being us when we remember. But it felt like that, like one piece missing from puzzle, and my sister felt it too.

I don't anymore.

It's OK if you wanna know, I don't mean you shouldn't. We will believe what you remember, because we don't have any reasons not to. I'm just saying there's no easy cuts to heal. So that you don't do stuff because of wrong beliefs what's gonna happen next, when you do know.
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Re: Beth and Karen

Postby Sarandipity » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:11 am

Hi Floralie, I really appreciate your whole response, thank you.

My childhood was spent dreaming of when I could escape my parents. I slept in a room with damp and black mould which made me ill. I was tested for all sorts of illnesses from arthritis to leukemia because of the damp room and my mother taking me to the doctors. I slept in a bed that had a wasps nest underneath it somewhere for a year and got stung - I slept because I got used to it. My mother would take me to various after school classes and if the teacher complimented me she stop taking me - so basically every class I was stopped from going to. My sister had a nice room, was allowed to carry on dancing when I wasn't but I don't blame her or dislike her for that. My dad would be out alot drinking or playing football and he had affairs. He was pretty much oblivious to what my mother was like and I grew up with him telling me "your mum is your best friend" so I had it drummed into that she was the only person who cared about me and I believed that till I had therapy. To believe that whilst also being incredibly sad, cut myself, shoplifting, took drugs, ran away (as a teenager), still got good grades, would take this disorder to manage that. So my parents definitely contributed to it, massively. I worked through it in therapy, challenged them (which was largely pointless) and forgave them and then made a plan of boundaries with the therapist so I still minimally see them but they don't have the impact on my life - my mother caused hospitalisation a couple of times because of how toxic she is when I spent too much time with her. But because of these half memories and because of "no-one" turning up and so traumatised but doesn't think or say much and because of Mandy who always wants "a Daddy" in a sexual way and because of the twins saying they memory dumped in a particular place I constantly wonder if there's more to it. I could add it all up and say "something happened but I can't remember" but I can't. I can't because I could be wrong and that'd be unfair and possibly lieing to myself. So I wonder and unless, like what happened with my uncle, I suddenly remember actual memories I am left just wondering. With my uncle I'd always felt slightly intimidated by him but I didn't know why and I didn't like to be around him on my own so I wasn't. Then his son (teenager) assaulted my son (age 4) and I reported it, did everything you're supposed to do but I started having flashbacks, nearly had a complete breakdown and my psychiatrist sent me to therapy instead of giving me meds because I'd been years without meds. That's when I remembered what happened with my uncle. And obviously had to deal with alot of guilt over why didn't I remember, why didn't I keep my son away from his family. Obviously I have nothing to do with any of my family since then - my brain said if he did that to me he must of done that to all my cousins and the odds are some of them are like him so I stay away from all of my mother's family except my grandmother. I only see my parents very occasionally. I still feel this actual uncertainty about my father even though it's my mums family that 100% has sexual abuse in it. We barely saw my dad's family, because of my mother I think, so I don't know or see any of them except for very occasionally at a family reunion. This is where my brain gets torn between was my dad an "ok" guy reacting to a very disturbed woman (my mother is definitely very disturbed) or was he with her because he fitted in to her family and is very abusive. My mother would punish me by leaving me with my dad while she took my sister out or make him take me clothes shopping etc and I was always relieved not to be with her and I liked going with my dad instead. He was always flirting with women and crashed his car once looking at a woman and I had to not mention he was looking at a woman to my mum but being with him was still way better than being with my mum. So I know my dad's definite weakness - women and drinking - and I get very upset to wonder if he did abuse me sexually because he was the most caring parent I had despite his weaknesses.
[/coloru]Sarandipity
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Re: Beth and Karen

Postby Sarandipity » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:52 am

Last post written by Beth.
[/coloru]Sarandipity
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Re: Beth and Karen

Postby Floralie » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:43 pm

Oh, I most definitely agree it's useless to try to make abusers understand what they did wrong and expect things to change. If they were able to understand such thing, they would never have done it. My mom knows she did plenty of mistakes with us. She fully admits that and is sorry for that. She is not evil person any way, she is just troubled and abused too. So she is far away from being sadistic or person who wants revenge or lacks empathy. But even when she knows she crossed my boundaries and we needed to parent her and not the other way round, she still acts the same. And it's not her fault she does that. She does it, because even when she KNOWS what went wrong from her part, she still doesn't have healthy boundaries to tell her when she is doing it again. She will never learn them, because it's not possible for her to have therapy. Only after years in therapy she could maybe have boundaries, and understand when they are crossed by my dad, and when she does it to me.

Sometimes I try to teach her, but then I realize it's the worst thing I can do. It means I'm playing to be her T. Again. Like always, as long as I can remember I've been her T, not daughter. Our responsibility was to keep her safe, and protect her feelings. Not ours, but hers. So you can totally violate a child badly even without any intentions to do so, and even when you love them and do your best. The best for someone who lacks boundaries and therefor allows life to be unstable all the time just isn't enough.

It's great you saved your child. Not all dissociative parents can do it, because it is so painful and triggering to need to face it. So some just tell a child to shut up, and live like nothing bad happened. You didn't. You took care of him even when it triggered you so badly and it was so brave from you. It's clear you really deeply care about your child and are ready to work for him to have a better life you did, because you truly love and care.

That's why I hope you realize that you do lack boundaries as a system with men yourselves. It's not your fault, but no one else can fix it for you. You have beliefs in the system that needs to be changed, like that you wanna be abused, and it's not true. The mom of your child should not be abused and think it's OK, and I mean your whole system. You know Mandy can not tell the difference between parenting and sex, and there are adults in the system who allow her to be abused because she can't tell the difference. It is not OK, not at all. It's as wrong as if you'd have allowed it to happen to your son. So I know you do have that understanding in you, because you would not let it happen to your son. Don't let it happen to any of you either, you all are your son's parents.

Children learn from their life. If you tell them one thing but do another, they learn what was done. You protected him then, do protect him also from learning wrong kind of model about relationships between adults. You do have all what it takes to care about yourself too. So if you can't do it for yourself, do it for your child. He's way more valuable than any man you, any of the system members, feel attracted to.

You faced it with your child, so you can face it with your little. And you can forgive yourselves and each other you didn't know any better before. Because that was not your fault, that was trauma.

Trauma is not fair. We didn't choose it, and can't be responsible for having it. But we are still responsible for getting better, to save the next generation. You are certainly better mom yours was, and you can have all credit for it. I hope you get the rest of the system to work with you, to share the same core values about not allowing any abuse with any excuse.
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Re: Beth and Karen

Postby Sarandipity » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:10 pm

Yes, Floralie, that is my absolute major issue - having a healthy relationship. I ended the relationship with my children's father because of the exact reason of wanting to avoid setting a bad example - drunk and womaniser like my dad. He does see the children but only fortnightly under strict boundaries and that works well.

I was on my own for years trying to work out how on earth I could set a reasonable example of a relationship. I concluded maybe a BDSM type relationship would be the answer because anything "unhealthy" is behind closed doors, an outlet, "normal" daily life but "abnormal" in the bedroom. (Karen)

But you are right, we are abusing ourselves still mainly Mandy. We can correct this by talking to our bf but that'll be a really awkward conversation but we'll do it.

He's been really good about the DID. It's been pretty much good since we confessed it. We concluded he's a sociopath because a sociopath will adapt to a person and give them what they want and we believe that's how he noticed we were very different at different times because of his innate ability to work people. He was "working" our system but since we confessed and said we believe that's what he does he's stopped doing it. Also he would only be mean to Rose, because she's weak. We pointed that out, that he was doing that and eventually he said sorry even though he was doing it subconsciously and didn't realise. We rate him for that. He does genuinely care about us as a whole. Possibly how someone cares about a pet but people often care more for their pets than they do people so we don't see that as a problem.

Is this current relationship a healthy example?.. As an outside view we don't know. It's getting healthier as a relationship because we're all talking to him. Because we have very firm boundaries. Because he is how he is. Because he's how he is, to label it we'd still have to label sociopath, he is more rational than other people - that is a fact - in the heat of a moment he's still in control of himself and non-patgological people are not like that. Non-pathogological people get emotionally hurt, they're ruled by emotions and they would find our condition scary and confusing. He's researched it and grabbed the bull by the horns in a practical manner. He hasn't shown fear because he has none, because of how he is. He gives the individuals in our system what they want and there are no ends to be gained other than something he's always wanted, which we can all give him because of how we are, acceptance and love. He makes people in our system feel safe, he has a work background that gives him skills we need to feel safe overall. But he'll also stand up to us and we need that. He doesn't molly coddle us. Once Rose felt he pitied her but since addressing that he hasn't pitied us since. We feel he has a kind of respect for us as a whole and we have a kind of respect for him. He puts us first, he doesn't drink or womanise and personally we wouldn't have anyone else be around us in a relationship that isn't how he is. When no-one showed up completely out of the blue and traumatised he just got on with it, he gave her a blanket and a hot drink, he talked to her and he didn't make her feel uncomfortable or stupid and when she said she wanted to go look at some stuff, places, to help her bring her into being around again he drove her around until she wanted to go home, he had no personal upset about it at all and he doesn't mention it or her unless we do, he found songs to help her, old stuff she likes and made cds so she could feel part of our lives because she is - he just did it, logically and without fuss or worry of if it was right or wrong. We believe a more emotionally ruled person would be unable to cope that well if at all. We are not conventional in our approach, we realise that, but we were very careful in assessing him and selecting him because our parts lack boundaries. The twins
[/coloru]Sarandipity
[color=#BF40FF]Beth
KarenPatrickPeterthe twinsMandyRose
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Re: Beth and Karen

Postby Sarandipity » Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:14 am

Hi Floralie, it's Beth. All parts seem comfortable to talk to you but I feel more connected to you - like we kind of have the similar internal stugggles with our system.


**TW SEX**

When Karen was thinking about how to have a healthy relationship she started looking into BDSM. She thought it was her that wanted a "Daddy Dom" type relationship but well into having this with the current bf Mandy showed up. Karen now feels guilty. She blames herself for Mandy but I think Mandy has been sneaking out for years because I always had these odd thoughts pop into my head of seeing my partners as "Daddy" I beat myself up about it and pushed it down telling myself it's weird. Karen embraced it as a kink but it wasn't a kink it was Mandy.

As a system we tried to combat it yesterday and keep Mandy safe but we failed. We didn't talk to the bf about it. Karen and Rose had sex with him. At the time of going to sleep Mandy showed up and Rose tried to put her to bed like normal, get a Teddy, tell her a story but she wasn't having any of it. The more Rose pushed forward the more Mandy resisted. Eventually she got "no-one" who is teenage and "no-one" got rid of Rose. Rose said she dragged her off, beat her up and told her to leave the kid alone. No-one veiws it like "if you were mentally a five year old but stuck in an adult body with adult needs, near enough feeling people enjoying sex but can't quite feel the physical feeling of it unless you're fully present in the body and you know it's enjoyable then wouldn't you want that. (I added words to make it readable but the next bit is directly her words) Sure kid has some issues but hell let her live"

Sorry this is going into a dialogue now.

Beth: I don't think you needed to beat Rose up though.

No-one: you out Rose without. Can't. Make a point more clearly. Can't.

Beth: I think you're making the wrong choices.

No-one:

She's gone and gave me the finger and a thumbs up and pulled a face. I don't think she cares what I'm saying.

Mandy and the twins and no-one are really destructive forces for us internally. To be fair the twins just work to make everyone happy, Mandy is just a selfish child who does not really know right from wrong and no-one believes her way of seeing things is right. The twins to be fair are currently debating over whether to ask the bf for help with this but Mandy is very sneaky so they don't think he can actually help. They said they can't stop no-one taking Msndys side because she's a law unto herself. They said she also smokes and blows the smoke on Mandy ie I thought Mandy smoked (that's the least of my Mandy issues) but it turns out no-one doesn't let Mandy smoke, she smokes and Mandy stands next to the body and no-one blows it on her. I found that out last night. I learnt to hang around like the twins and just watch everything. I'm finding out a lot of stuff. I think no-one has been around - the twins are telling me to shut up. Not because of writing here but because of no-one.

Anyway Floralie, you're right. My system is very boundary lacking. It's more the internal boundaries that are the issue though I'm starting to realise. The hidden alters. They seem to be more powerful than the ones I have known for years but anonymity is power so as I'm finding them hopefully I can get to grips with them.
[/coloru]Sarandipity
[color=#BF40FF]Beth
KarenPatrickPeterthe twinsMandyRose
No-one
Sarandipity
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Consumer 6
 
Posts: 588
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