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ISH question

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ISH question

Postby TeddyBear the helper » Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:08 pm

This is a tricky question, but how did those of you who can move memories around between different alters , and can put someone to sleep when necessary learn how to do it?
If i should tell someone new on the job how to learn it, then what should i tell them?

Ps, i can take answers in PM for this question.
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Re: ISH question

Postby birdsong87 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:20 pm

We can't.
The only systems we know (so far) who can easily do that have a MC structure with filing room and cues. If we worked with a system like that we would stay miles away from making use of any of that. It would mean using the tools the abusers established and it can harm trust deeply.
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Re: ISH question

Postby Sarandipity » Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:53 pm

It's a strain to force asleep and awake. It causes stress on the physical brain in our opinion but it is possible. It's much easier if the wake up person or person you want asleep or back inside internally is willing.

Asking who's willing and able is a good place to start. If they get a pay off they like then it's easier.

It's more system manipulation than anything else. Nothing fancy simply how people manipulate people irl. Obviously you need a communication base. A log. Someone who can pass relevant info and minimise confusion.

The few times we've forced things, really forced things it's very straining and upsetting for those forced. We don't recommend it unless there's really really good reason that's for the benefit of all.

It's better to let alters come in and out naturally. None of them want settings they aren't capable of dealing with or don't know what's going on. So the first step is having a means where alters can be informed what's going on otherwise you'd be heading for breakdown. Then if you want to force someone out you need a hook - hey front for us because this person isn't coping and you can: go to a club or get ice-cream or go sit in nature or go on a date (whatever their particular hook might be).

We don't think it's fair or actually very nice. We only do it to smooth out a difficult patch and usually it's not necessary because someone will volunteer if the usual alter isn't up to their usual role. They do it their own way though lol so you might have to send someone cleaning who can't clean for example so that used to end up in them paying someone to help. It's not ideal. We don't recommend it. We're getting a head ache thinking about it.

-- Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:57 pm --

birdsong87 wrote:We can't.
The only systems we know (so far) who can easily do that have a MC structure with filing room and cues. If we worked with a system like that we would stay miles away from making use of any of that. It would mean using the tools the abusers established and it can harm trust deeply.
L+Mike



Yes you're spot on. It uses abusive tools and destroys trust.
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Re: ISH question

Postby Johnny-Jack » Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:11 pm

If you were a brand new user, your questions, to me, would be alarming, but since we've read so many of your posts, we're sure your intentions are good. Perhaps it might help to describe the problems or challenges you're facing so we could offer advice or alternatives.

Our ISH says he cannot move memories among alters and hasn't heard of that being done exactly, so no idea on that one. "Putting someone to sleep" in English has the unfortunate meaning of killing them, mercifully or not. So if a pet is very old and suffering, you might have it put to sleep. Why would it be good for a specific alter to sleep? There may be alternatives, for one example, resting, as you might for a headache, with a friendly alter or two nearby.
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Re: ISH question

Postby ItsJustUs » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:02 am

TeddyBear the helper wrote:This is a tricky question, but how did those of you who can move memories around between different alters , and can put someone to sleep when necessary learn how to do it?
If i should tell someone new on the job how to learn it, then what should i tell them?

Ps, i can take answers in PM for this question.


Memories: It was less "moving" memories and more of the one who had the memory being willing to share it. Delikah and Val bith have the most complete set of memories. When Deliksh wants to share, it's almost like she's opening a box that contains photos and pulls out the ones she wants me to see.

Val describes it as having the memories filed in a Rolodex, so even if she isn't aware at a time, somehow the memory goes into her Rolodez and she can flip through then to get caught up on something she missed.

Delilah and Val can both put others to sleep. They only dk it when one of us is so stressed or triggered that no one else can function because of the mental noise. Delilah describes it as wrapping herself around the one she wants to put to sleep, like a blanket, and as long as she is engulfing that person, the person is unaware of anything, and she just wills them to sleep.

Val is more forceful about it, she kindof shoves the person into their room, and closes the door, and then somehow makes them sleep.

It takes a tremendous amount of effort for them to do this, and neither one does it unless they feel it's truly needed.

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Re: ISH question

Postby Dwelt » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:45 am

Hi !

The only time I heard about an alter able to move memories and to make another alters sleep, it wasn't with a DID system but with someone who think they have DID while only very few of their symptoms where coherent with DID, and after seeing the ideation/devalution pattern more than once along with foreclosure, I'm pretty sure this person has BPD. But they are giving so little informations to their Ts, it will take years before they'll have a proper diagnosis...

In our system, no one can do such things. We can't move our memories from on alter to another unless we merge then un-merge, and then we don't have any controle on what memory will stay with each alter. And when another one go to sleep, it's because they somehow want to/need it.

Like others said, forcing isn't really a good solution. Unless it's really, really needed, it's better to look for another option. Because if it helps right now, it could creat trust issues with the alter that was forced later.
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Re: ISH question

Postby IainEtc » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:10 pm

Hi TeddyBear,

It's good to hear from you again.

I checked and nobody in our system knows anything about moving memories. We just have what we have.

The only times any of us has been put to sleep meant something really really bad was happening. But we had one alter that got very relaxed and kind of went to sleep but that was because things were really safe so he didn't need to be pushing on things all the time. He can wake up any time he wants to though. He's just taking a nap in a safe place.

A long time ago we had some alters put to sleep (maybe knocked out or pushed into the dark?) by bad things happening but they still influenced the system through feelings and things (like they were having bad dreams that we all felt). So if you want someone to stop doing something putting them to sleep doesn't really help much. It just makes them impossible to communicate with and that's actually a way bigger problem.

Hope you get things figured out. If you'd like to tell us the problem you're trying to fix we'll help. You're a super important person on the forum.

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Re: ISH question

Postby TeddyBear the helper » Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:41 pm

Thanks for the replies everybody :) good to hear from you too iain :)

About memories and sleep, it is just that the ISHs i am used to can do that quite easily and they often do that to help the kids handle their situation, however, that body are away over the weekend so i cant ask them how to do it. It is nothng strange with that, everyone knows about it and its a part of the help they get from their ISH that they expect and demand. the ISH just brings the troubled kid to a separate restroom and put them to sleep there until they are okay again.
-Some of the kids already has conquered their traumas, but when they arent enough developed to do that, then sleep can be a way to gain strength and get out of it.

Its all in the brain so it isnt so strange actually, its just about tapping into a layer below the communication that is the inner world. the common safe and box methaphores are images that creates a temporary disconnection of memories for instance ;)

But things has changed in the system i asked the question for, so its not so urgently needed anymore :)
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Re: ISH question

Postby Sarandipity » Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:20 pm

Memory control, repression, access, storage foe us is like a practiced art.

When we didn't like the ending of a film as a kid we would lay awake at night re-writing the ended, story and pictured - detailed. Until out version of the film was the real version to. When we watched as an adult we would sit thinking "this isn't the ending" It took a few times of this happening to remember laying awake re-writing films.

We'll continue later we have to do something . The twins.
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Re: ISH question

Postby Sarandipity » Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:32 pm

To be specific when a an alter didn't like the ending of a film we'd change it. Our mother wouldn't let us watch anything more than PG until we were about 14. We watched stuff late at night we had a TV, at our nans because she'd fall asleep but the others didn't. So they would get more easily upset, even at PG kids films, and we had to change endings of stuff for them. Eventually they only watched what suited them. But we learnt that we could so accurately create memory. If you can bin memory into a giant abyss and you can change memory by showing a realistic alternative that a person prefers then you don't need blank spots. We realised that.

So this suited us until as teens to early 20's we read about coping mechanisms and realised ours as adults were outdated and needed adaptation. Ie not blocking or binning. We'd re-writing so much pulling memories out of the black abyss was difficult. We didn't pull full memories out but enough to get the gist and let each alter face difficult things they'd been previously spared. They faced the emotions if not the full colour version of the memory. We didn't see a need to re-traumatise anyone and as long as they each had outline clear narratives they knew the facts of their history, had faced uncomfortable emotions and we're then equipped to live fuller lives.

At about age 27 we did suffer a huge trauma again, unexpectedly, that no one could pre see. We binned it but not fully until it was safer to face it. So we still half used or so called outdated coping mechanism but adapted it based on our knowledge of the flaws. Ie if you don't face things they linger around and also as an adult you have better emotional equipment as well as outside resources at your disposal to deal with things better.

At somewhere around that point we wanted a better way of sharing memory because fragmented memory causes issue in daily life. Our memories are shared in pictures and sometimes verbal explanation between parts but this can be slow, like the post, and if the alter holding that memory is asleep then impossible. So we made a hollow shell called Jane, she has no personality and is effectively a very organised memory bank.

For example shopping earlier. A very friendly facial expressioned person started to come towards us. She clearly knew us well. We responded with friendly familiarity but inside were slightly panicked. Jane started to real off everything about her: mother, school, children's names, chats sometimes for up to 10 mins. Even as Jane was still realing off her list the woman was gone past, busy like us. So Jane works. We weren't really sure if Jane worked or how well. Filling an empty brain space with all and any relevant info could be hit and miss. We live inside usually, we created, the others seemed to indicate she worked because they said they'd get picture memories and sometimes audio description but today was our first time experiencing Jane for ourselves.

We also created Sue based on a fat rude lady who had a good vocabulary that the others were friends with years ago. Sue is also hollow like Jane, no personality, she isn't an alter. She's a kind of filter for us because we don't like outside contact. She relays messages and we respond through her. The only one able to over ride Sue is Rose. If Rose bothers us with something we know it's important. If Sue relays a message of danger we will check it out but other than that we have been pretty happy living basically in the subconscious doing our best to organise "us as a whole" into a fully rounded human being. Which is difficult because we feel like we have a bunch of vagabonds, we love them but they are all a bit wonky.

We don't know how we're going to come across to all of you. We got upset on our heartbroken thread because we're protective but would like to say we've never seen such self aware people ever and our (internal) people have been to many therapy and self development classes so we have quite a bit of experience of seeing reasonably self aware people. We're kind of hoping you'll pick this apart a bit for us or challenge it because you all seem more with it than any "singular" people we've met (probably singular, we have come across a couple of people who possibly weren't singular). We didn't like it on the heartbroken thread because that thread is for Rose. Rose has kind of hidden away more now because she thinks we're going to embarrass us all. We see this as far too much of an opportunity to explore our psyche further than we have done to pass up. And we apologise if we come across as abrupt or rude, we talk in a direct manner, but we'll temper it if necessary. The twins.
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